'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[De_Maria]

No, I was implying I believe Christ the son was active in the OT. The entirety of the Bible, the Word, is about Christ.

I did not mean to jump in and take the conversation off course.

No problem. Feel free to jump in whenever. I just wondered what you meant. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[De_Maria]

Here is what Jesus also said,

“Salvation is of the Jews”.

Yep. Now tie it into your argument. Because as it stands, it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

 

[Woodyl57]

Thanks, but I should make sure I know full line of the discussion before going off sideways. Lol

All ya keep it up. Good discussion.

 

[mcq72]

Thank you. So, this should have proved you wrong, but you continue.

Have no idea what you mean.

Israel began as theocracy, then chose instead to be ruled by visible king. They continued to exist as God’s light on earth and brought forth the Christ child.

Even if it were true, ( visible bad popes)the Catholic Church is still here

Yes, to my point, Israel continued to exist as God’s light and salvation,
despite some errors and misteps.

Certain Jews prevailed. Judaism did not.

Yes after Jesus, NT. I was speaking of OT, and how some things repeat themselves…how being a light of the world is conditional, and how infallibility is not necesary to God’s plan…Judaism was not infallible in OT yet perfectly accomplished salvation to the world in her Christ child…just as the NT church will perfectly deliver (be) the Bride of Christ.

Those Churches, and you see that they are several and thus not the one, true, Catholic and Apostolic Church

So the churches in Revelation were not Catholic …were they Orthodox, Protestant ?.. not apostolic? Of course they were of the one true catholic apostolic church.

They all were under the auspices of St. John, the Apostle

See …catholic apostolic one true.

Jesus Christ established a system for weeding out error and heresy. It is right there in Scripture.

Yes but error existed even if for a brief spell. That is my point.

So for a year or a decade the error existed, before admonition of correction. That matches my point of prevailing…that it is not infallibility every second of existence, for one became infected, lost the battle, but eventually prevailed.

Those churches had some bad doctrine for some time…ask those parishioners if their church was infallible, unconditionally, all the time. What was their understanding of prevailing, or did they call God a liar for allowing such error to enter?

Who said that “we have never erred”?

I am talking about infallibility. The Catholic Church is protected from error by the Holy Spirit. That doesn’t say that individuals even in the Chur

Your argument is circular. First you say we never error, then you say when we do, we fix it. To me that is not infallibility but prevailing.

Your idea that you never, ever teach error for a split second is unhistorical. That you correct it is. And from my point I would add you have not corrected some reforms yet, that there is still a chance to prevail in such things.

Compare that to your system. Right. You don’t have one. If you disagree with someone, your only recourse is to pick up your bible and go home.

well apparently we do have a system then or a freedom then, to follow our conscience, and yes God help us.

 

[fhansen]

Israel began as theocracy, then chose instead to be ruled by visible king. They continued to exist as God’s light on earth and brought forth the Christ child.

A true theocracy is probably totally impossible in this world, just as perfect obedience of the Law is impossible, unless each person individually were to enter a relationship of complete subjugation to God in an obedience born of loving Him with their whole heart soul, mind, and strength. Then we would have true theocracy on earth, as it will be in heaven. Meanwhile it’s a great ideal.

 

[mcq72]

A true theocracy is probably totally impossible in this world

Never the less that is what Istael was before kings… i mean they were a governed people as Josuah entered the promised land, Jehovah leading, right up until they wanted a king with Saul…they were a covenant people as such for quite awhile, as imperfect human beings.

 

[De_Maria]

Have no idea what you mean.

You said:

Yes, because they abandoned Jesus ruling, theocracy, for a visible king.

The Catholic Church has never abandoned Jesus and never will.

Israel began as theocracy, then chose instead to be ruled by visible king…

They rejected God.

Yes, to my point, Israel continued to exist as God’s light and salvation,
despite some errors and misteps.

But without infallibility, by the time of Christ, they no longer had a visible king and were under Herod’s rule.

Yes after Jesus, NT. I was speaking of OT, and how some things repeat themselves…

Which is besides the point.

how being a light of the world is conditional,

Except when God is the Head of your Church. As is the case in the Catholic Church.

and how infallibility is not necesary to God’s plan…

Whether it be necessary or not, is not yours to determine. God granted the Catholic Church infallibility, whether you like it or not.

Judaism was not infallible in OT

to my point.

yet perfectly accomplished salvation to the world in her Christ child…

Your mistaken. If they had done so, Jesus Christ would not have had to be born.

just as the NT church will perfectly deliver (be) the Bride of Christ.

The Catholic Church is the bride of Christ, now.

So the churches in Revelation were not Catholic

They are local Churches, members of the Catholic Church.

… Of course they were of the one true catholic apostolic church.

Part of.

See …catholic apostolic one true.

Yep.

Yes but error existed even if for a brief spell. That is my point.

Your point is rather liquid. Once it is disproven, you morph it into something different.

So for a year or a decade the error existed, before admonition of correction. That matches my point of prevailing…that it is not infallibility every second of existence, for one became infected, lost the battle, but eventually prevailed.

I never claimed “infallibility every second of existence”. Nor infallibility for every person in the Church. Every time I prove you wrong on one point, you move the goalpost.

The fact is, you’ve been proven wrong. The Catholic Church is infallible whether you like it or not. Whether you think it is necessary or not.

Your argument is circular.

Says the person who claims to believe in Sola Scriptura.

First you say we never error, then you say when we do, we fix it. To me that is not infallibility but prevailing.

Quote where I said that we never err.

Your idea that you never, ever teach error for a split second is unhistorical. …

Lol. Never, ever, ever? Not for even a micro second? Really? I’m done. See you on the boards.

 

[mcq72]

The Catholic Church has never abandoned Jesus and never will.

They rejected God.

The Jews never rejected God (had other gods) after Babylonian captivity.

They rejected God’s interface method, thru direct revelation thru prophets and judges, but they did not reject God (up until they delivered their Messiah).

So of course no church has rejected Jesus, but we certainly disagree on " interface" structure (papal office… visible " king").

But without infallibility, by the time of Christ, they no longer had a visible king and were under Herod’s rule.

Visible king is not criteria for prevailing, but bringing forth all the prophecies of God, which they did despite their blindness.

Which is besides the point.

Well, learning and repeating things of OT is not besides my point.

Except when God is the Head of your Church. As is the case in the Catholic Church.

Jesus was the God of Israel also…they may have had an earthly king as you have an earthly pope, but both testaments have Jesus/ Jehovah as their Almighty God, to be worshipped and obeyed.

Whether it be necessary or not, is not yours to determine. God granted the Catholic Church infallibility, whether you like it or not.

You dont find it self serving for a church to decree itself infallible ?

Your mistaken. If they had done so, Jesus Christ would not have had to be born.

What was imperfect about the Jews and the Incarnation? Was Jesus wrong when He said, " Salvation is of the Jews"?

The Catholic Church is the bride of Christ, now.

Well, there wont be any papal office, or cardinals or bishops offices or councils at the wedding, but souls washed in the blood of the Lamb.

I never claimed “infallibility every second of existence”.

Please explain, for i have never heard a Catholic put a time frame on infallibility other than “never”.

Again on teaching of faith and morals.

And whose time frame, for to God a day is as to a year, or more?

Every time I prove you wrong

Only in your misunderstanding of my point have you declared me wrong.

Quote where I said that we never err

Please correct me then if you admit on erring on teaching on faith and morals.

All you have said perhaps is that only a portion, or a part of the CC has erred, momentarily, as in Revelation churches. Perhaps that is fair, for infallibility really is for pope speaking ex cathedra, which is rare, and would not really apply to errors in Revelation churches, which were addressed by the apostle himself.

And I did admit the CC has corrected errors in its past, from within its ranks, but never had to correct a papal decree or council decree, true.

 

[De_Maria]

The Jews never rejected God (had other gods) after Babylonian captivity.

Then why did Herod become their ruler?

They rejected God’s interface method, …

So God was wrong when He said:

1 Sam8:7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

So of course no church has rejected Jesus, but we certainly disagree on " interface" structure (papal office… visible " king").

You disagree with God.

Visible king is not criteria for prevailing, but bringing forth all the prophecies of God, which they did despite their blindness.

There you go, changing the argument again. What are you talking about now? According to God’s word, the Jews rejected God. According to God’s word, by the time that Jesus Christ was born, the Jews were led by a pagan ruler. That’s not prevailing.

Well, learning and repeating things of OT is not besides my point.

You’re not repeating anything from the OT. You’re making things up and attributing them to the OT.

Jesus was the God of Israel also…they may have had an earthly king as you have an earthly pope, but both testaments have Jesus/ Jehovah as their Almighty God, to be worshipped and obeyed.

The Jews demanded an earthly King. God appointed His Vicar, the Pope.

You dont find it self serving for a church to decree itself infallible ?

God decreed the Catholic Church infallible.

What was imperfect about the Jews and the Incarnation?

Did the Jews bring about the incarnation of their own power? Or was it God’s doing?

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Was Jesus wrong when He said, " Salvation is of the Jews"?

Nope. John 4:22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Jesus is making reference to the knowledge that was given the Jews. The oracles or revelations, through the Prophets. But Jesus also said:

Matthew 23:31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

God’s plan of salvation was made known through the Jews. But they didn’t keep it.

Matthew 23:13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Well, there wont be any papal office, or cardinals or bishops offices or councils at the wedding, but souls washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Says who? Where does God say that He will do away with the hierarchy of the Church. Some will be sitting on thrones, won’t they?

Luke 22:30That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Please explain, for i have never heard a Catholic put a time frame on infallibility other than “never”.

Your logic escapes me. You claimed that I said:

First you say we never error

When I ask you to quote where I said that we never err, you ask about a time frame on infallibility. Infallibility has to do with the passing of God’s Word without error. It does not mean that we will never err.

Again on teaching of faith and morals.

That is correct. The Catholic Church Teaches faith and morals, without error.

And whose time frame, for to God a day is as to a year, or more?

For eternity.

Only in your misunderstanding of my point have you declared me wrong.

Not only have I declared you wrong, but I’ve proved you wrong.

Please correct me then if you admit on erring on teaching on faith and morals.

Now at least, you’re being specific. But your wording still needs help.

The Catholic Church does not teach error in faith and morals.

All you have said perhaps is that only a portion, or a part of the CC has erred, momentarily, as in Revelation churches. Perhaps that is fair, for infallibility really is for pope speaking ex cathedra, which is rare, and would not really apply to errors in Revelation churches, which were addressed by the apostle himself.

Did you just admit that you were wrong?

 

[mcq72]

Did the Jews bring about the incarnation of their own power? Or was it God’s doing?

Are you a monergist now?

Then why did Herod become their ruler?

So if you have an earthly ruler you reject a heavenly ruler?

So God was wrong when He said:

1 Sam8:7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me , that I should not reign over them.

That is what some say the CC did when pursuing papal office, as if we would be orphans without the office, even though the Holy Spirit was given so we would not be orphans.

Was God wrong then when Saul was told to anoint Saul, then David king.

The king thing did not void covenant, did not derail mission.

You disagree with God.

Yes, one of us does, but I do not reject Him as truly head of church, on earth, or call for visible " king"…12 apostles, and bishops they appointed and councils are enough visible .

According to God’s word, by the time that Jesus Christ was born, the Jews were led by a pagan ruler. That’s not prevailing.

Only if your focus is on power, authority structure, institution instead of mission, even fulfilling prophecies.
Salvation is of Jews. And yes, by Gods grace, and divine sovereignty.

The Jews demanded an earthly King. God appointed His Vicar, the Pope.

Yes, the Jews did so, as the western Catholic also demanded an earthly head.
God appointed the Holy Spirit as vicar.

 

[mcq72]

Jesus is making reference to the knowledge that was given the Jews. The oracles or revelations, through the Prophets. But Jesus also said:

So they too were a pillar of truth?

Matthew 23:31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Nobody said they all had to be perfect, you can have bad people but their authority/ message etc still holds…just like the churches today defend themselves against their own bad apples, their own portion of negative history . That is what I hear folks say justifying their churches despite some bad “press”.

Says who? Where does God say that He will do away with the hierarchy of the Church. Some will be sitting on thrones, won’t they?

Well some might not like the tone of church heirarchy as being " thrones"…Peter never considered himself to be like on a throne at all as lead apostle…but the least of us indeed maybe given a throne to help rule in the kingdom to come

 

[mcq72]

Infallibility has to do with the passing of God’s Word without error. It does not mean that we will never err.

Understand…but that is what we are talking about…error in transmission of God’s Word…teaching

When I ask you to quote where I said that we never err

Apologies, you said " never fail".

The Catholic Church Teaches faith and morals, without error.

Except for parts of it, and only a short spell, before it is corrected

Did you just admit that you were wrong?

Yes I was wrong but because of my correction or clarification can still claim to be perfect lol…am infallibly guided.

By the way, as to the Revelation churches, not all prevailed, and indeed a few were no more .

 

[De_Maria]

Are you a monergist now?

Lol! I don’t guess that you know what that word means. Or do you actually think that synergism means that men brought about the birth of Our Lord? Please explain, how in this world, that question fits the context in this discussion.

So if you have an earthly ruler you reject a heavenly ruler?

We are comparing the infallibility of the Catholic Church with the complete destruction of OT Judaism. At the time that Jesus was born, the only vestiges of Institutional Judaism were, the Pharisees, the Sadduccees and the priestly system permitted by Herod, who had built the Temple.

Judaism had failed. God therefore, took human form and stepped in to guide us to salvation.

That is what some say the CC did when pursuing papal office, as if we would be orphans without the office, even though the Holy Spirit was given so we would not be orphans.

Faithless people who don’t understand the Wisdom of God, say that. Jesus Christ established the Papal Office. Therefore, we regard it with reverence. The Holy Spirit guides that office and the entire Church.

Was God wrong then when Saul was told to anoint Saul, then David king.

Nope. God allowed it as a punishment to them.

1 Sam 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king. 11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots…15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. 16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

The king thing did not void covenant, did not derail mission.

Nonetheless, God was not pleased, it was a punishment. And the King thing, did not last, either.

Yes, one of us does, but I do not reject Him as truly head of church, on earth, or call for visible " king"…12 apostles, and bishops they appointed and councils are enough visible .

Yes, you do. You accept the visible Protestant leadership. Which God did not appoint. We accept the Institution which God created.

Only if your focus is on power, authority structure, institution instead of mission, even fulfilling prophecies.

That’s what we are talking about. The infallibility of the institution.

Salvation is of Jews. And yes, by Gods grace, and divine sovereignty.

Thank you!

Yes, the Jews did so, as the western Catholic also demanded an earthly head.
God appointed the Holy Spirit as vicar.

Lol! God appointed the Vicar of Christ without (name removed by moderator)ut from any Catholic.

 

[De_Maria]

So they too were a pillar of truth?

Nope. In fact, God said the opposite of them.

Malachi 2:7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts. 8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the Lord of hosts.

Nobody said they all had to be perfect, you can have bad people but their authority/ message etc still holds…just like the churches today defend themselves against their own bad apples, their own portion of negative history . That is what I hear folks say justifying their churches despite some bad “press”.

The Institution remains infallible, despite what any Catholic has done, despite the bad press, despite the opposition of many. This should show you that God is the Head of the Catholic Church.

Well some might like the tone of church heirarchy as being " thrones"…Peter never considered himself to be like on a throne at all as lead apostle…but the least of us indeed maybe given a throne to help rule in the kingdom to come

Did you find anything that says that God will destroy the hierarchy of the Church? No? Because Scripture also says:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

 

[fhansen]

Never the less that is what Istael was before kings… i mean they were a governed people as Josuah entered the promised land, Jehovah leading, right up until they wanted a king with Saul…they were a covenant people as such for quite awhile, as imperfect human beings.

Ok, they had a quasi-theocracy, still with a leader and priests and practices and the Law to center around, and yet far from what Christianity today could pull off as a whole. The Church at one time probably thought that heaven might just be realized here on earth as she became established and had spread in numbers and by geography. But the real problem in any case is a lack of unity of faith today. We can insist that as long as we’re all looking to Jesus that we’re united but the Israelites were united behind the revelation they’d been given and we have Jesus revealing different things according to today’s positions in Christianity. There should be unity in understanding of God’s nature and will for man. Churches wouldn’t bother splitting off of other Churches if that were the case.

 

[mcq72]

The Church at one time probably thought that heaven might just be realized here on earth as she became established and had spread in numbers and by geography.

Yes…I heard this on radio in regards to pope calling many leaders to a conference or something…that CC teaches that she will usher in millenium, or Christ coming back once world has heard gospel, even all coming in unity with CC…not sure what C teach.

We can insist that as long as we’re all looking to Jesus that we’re united but the Israelites were united behind the revelation they’d been given and we have Jesus revealing different things according to today’s positions in Christianity.

I do think if Christ were to come back today He would take up a universal church, that is from all different churches.

Yes we have different teachings with their said “institutions/ churches” still being “Christian”. I feel the situation was the same in Judaism when Jesus arrived. Indeed they were united in their revelation but their understanding differed (Zealots, Essenes, Pharisees, Saducees, etc.).

Still, the Lord said, “Salvation is of the Jews”. If He were to speak to a non believer today, He might say, “Salvation is of the Christians.”.

 

[fhansen]

If He were to speak to a non believer today, He might say, “Salvation is of the Christians.”.

Right, “Who’ll be judged on their love.” Now that would be a key unifying belief, tying together Scripture from Genesis through Revelation as it reconciles the teachings of Jesus, James, Paul, et al.

 

[mcq72]

Right, “Who’ll be judged on their love.” Now that would be a key unifying belief, tying together Scripture from Genesis through Revelation as it reconciles the teachings of Jesus, James, Paul, et al.

Indeed one of our desired trademarks, by which we will be known by.

 

[mcq72]

Did you find anything that says that God will destroy the hierarchy of the Church? No? Because Scripture also says:

Backing up a bit, he did not destroy Judaism but fulfilled it, as He will the church.

Do not see need for church structure in a perfect world, but for sure we will rule over the nations with Him.

Just saying dont think we will have office of pope or cardinals or office of bishops etc…just like we do not have a high priest anymore for we will have everything in Christ.

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Not sure what you are getting at. Yes, now and then are heavenly, angelic principalities, and there may be in kingdom to come, minus demonic forces, and a changing of mission.

The wisdom seen by heavenly angels is not church structure or hierarchy but the power and intent of the gospel to reach not just Jews but gentiles, on a scale never seen before.