Sola Scriptura help please

[look3467]

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Key words: justified by faith, have access, glory in tribulations, ungodly, while yet sinners, cammanded His love, justified by His blood, and we have now.

Blessings, AJ

 

[zach_dunn]

Yes, to the Apostles first, since they had to be the first to have revelation not thaught by Christ, for Jesus’ short time period.

But the job of revelation is not to the Apostles, but to the Holy Spirit who indwells a soul and knows just what is needed at the time it is needed and not before.

You see, we are one on one with God, directly linked to Him via the Spirit of God in us.

God reveals to us about Himself based on what God sees in our hearts and what is needed at the time.

So, we are never alone as promised, “Lo I will be with you always”.

And yes, as babes in Christ, our churches do teach us some basics, hopefully towards the maturing of our spiritual quest.

As mature Christians, we are independent from any organization, though we choose to belong to one, but that in itself has no beaing on our individuality, unless we allow to be placed under subjection.

Would you be independent of an “organization” if Christ had created one?

Yes, it has to me.

Blessings, AJ

I’d be careful if I were you, the idea of continuing revelation is not within the realm of Christian orthodoxy.

Jude 3
Beloved, being very eager to write to you of our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

 

[zach_dunn]

Can you name them?

Mark 10:19
You know the commandments: ‘Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’

Luke 18:20
You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’

1 Corinthians 14:37
If any seem to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him know the things that I write to you, that they are the commandments of the Lord.

And don’t forget all of the Sermon on the Mount [Matt 5-7]

And basically, if one needs the law to be governed by, than why have love for God willingly?

Sort of like pad locks on doors for the honest?

Honesty needs no locks of any kind, for there is no desire to steal.

To have love for God willingly is to do what He has told us to do.

1 John 3:22
[A]nd we receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

If I am free, than I must be able to exercise my freedom in everything, otherwise, I would need restraints.

But read this verse: Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Does that not sound like we have the option? “Only use”?

You decide what you want to do, if God dwells within you, your desire is to Him willingly.

Blessings, AJ

You are confused, just because we have commandments to obey does not mean that we are under “law” in any way, God is not a “foot-loose and fancy-free” kinda guy.

 

[zach_dunn]

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Key words: justified by faith, have access, glory in tribulations, ungodly, while yet sinners, cammanded His love, justified by His blood, and we have now.

Blessings, AJ

Yeah . . . I’m not sure what this has to do with the conversation we were having . . .

 

[look3467]

Would you be independent of an “organization” if Christ had created one?

I’d be careful if I were you, the idea of continuing revelation is not within the realm of Christian orthodoxy.

Jude 3
Beloved, being very eager to write to you of our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Christ did create an independent state, one of a direct relationship with Him.

Couldn’t get more independent from any organization than that.

Being set free means exactly that, not tied down to any whim of mankind’s making.

I am a believer in the atoning grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ whose blood has cleansed me free to become independent in my own state, yet dependent on Jesus as my God.

I owe it all to Him as my God for there is no other name under heaven by which mankind can be saved, thus…my God.

As far as revelations, it is not what you may think, nothing profound as to pronounce it to the world, but simply giving me understanding of His wonderful works found in His word.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Yeah . . . I’m not sure what this has to do with the conversation we were having . . .

Right there…in the written word…can be seen the love of God us word.

Key words, "Commanded His love towards us, justified by faith are but a few of the many examples of God’s gift of life to us, had we but see it in faith.

Our topic? Sola escritrua, is where we can find those wonderful works of God in our behalf.

He who finds those words will know and understand God’s love and act appropriately.

Blessings, AJ

 

[fermat]

Right there…in the written word…can be seen the love of God us word.

Key words, "Commanded His love towards us, justified by faith are but a few of the many examples of God’s gift of life to us, had we but see it in faith.

Our topic? Sola escritrua, is where we can find those wonderful works of God in our behalf.

He who finds those words will know and understand God’s love and act appropriately.

Blessings, AJ

It sounds like you are jumping from Sola Scriptura to Sola Fide. Catholics believe we are saved by faith. We just don’t follow we are saved by faith alone. But that is a discussion for another thread .

 

[SpectatorX]

Yeah, I simply cannot make myself go over there anymore!

I, however, miss the place dearly for some reason. An integral part of my “reversion” was when I realized that the best arguments offered against the Church tend to be completely preposterous when investigated to even the slightest degree. I began to notice the complete hipocrisy of the position held by most of the anticatholic posters. Most of them will charge Catholics with “checking our minds at the door” but then refuse to deal with the inconsistencies of their own arguments beyond mere pejorative. If one can remain emotionally detatched from what the goofballs are saying, it can be a rather fruitful and amusing place from time to time.

On the other hand, there’s the clear bias of the moderators…

Don’t ever call them biased, by the way, if you don’t want to end up banned…

And don’t ever actually demonstrate that bias with evidence if you don’t want to end up with a trumped-up three month ban.

Ah, the stories I can tell my grandchildren…

 

[JonNC]

=zach dunn;6928636]OK, thanks for the clarification! This is kind of off topic, but how do you define “explicit roots”? I mean, do you say the Trinity has explicit roots? Or Christ’s divinity?

Yes, they do.
Trinity - “Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”
Christ’s divinity - “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Quite explicit.

So is this the essence of traditional Lutheran sola Scriptura? It would seem that Bible is more for keeping doctrines in check then actually basing your doctrines on it, because lots of people could say things that don’t contradict the Bible yet are still wrong . . . right?

Would you say that, for example, Mary’s assumption is explicit or implicit? I would say implicit. Is it wrong to believe in her assumption? No, as it does not conflict with scripture. Should the conscience of the Christian be bound to believe it, even though her assumption is not explicit, and belief in the assumption is not directly related to salvation. Again, no.
Doctrine relates to those things related directly to salvation - articles of faith, found explicitly in scripture.

So are you saying that the Lutheran Confessions and the 7 early councils are the definitive interpretations of Scripture? That they’re authoritative in some way, possible “infallible”?

I wouldn’t say infallible. Definitive and authoritative, yes.

Jon

 

[Rightlydivide]

Zach
I do not believe a properly educated Christian can be talked out of the Bible as their final authority. I am curious though with at least 70 percent of people in the world being unsaved and going to hell, why we are so interesting to you?

 

[Cranmer2010]

I think it’s quite useless to try and find a one-size-fits-all definition of Sola Scriptura. Like all doctrines or practices, every Protestant chooses the definition to which “the Holy Spirit leads him.” Who can argue with the Holy Spirit? Private interpretation prevails, thanks to Mr. Luther. Even Luther and Calvin couldn’t agree on the meaning, from the get-go.

Jim Dandy
Ex-Protestant, ecstatic to be Catholic

I said this in another thread and it applies here as well, “You are mistaken”.

 

[look3467]

It sounds like you are jumping from Sola Scriptura to Sola Fide. Catholics believe we are saved by faith. We just don’t follow we are saved by faith alone. But that is a discussion for another thread .

Sola Escritura directs me to Sola Fide.

The “works” of God is what saves us by Sola Fide, for our works can not.

That is clearly stated in the works of God.

What part of God’s work does not fit salvation by grace through faith? Our Works?

A gift is not a gift if I have to work for it.

Blessings, AJ

 

[fermat]

Sola Escritura directs me to Sola Fide.

The “works” of God is what saves us by Sola Fide, for our works can not.

That is clearly stated in the works of God.

What part of God’s work does not fit salvation by grace through faith? Our Works?

A gift is not a gift if I have to work for it.

Blessings, AJ

So if we have faith, then works will come naturally from that faith. Got it.

Wait…

Grace is a gift? Yes. Faith is a gift? Yes. But faith without works is dead. Would you agree to that?

 

[AmateurPianist]

Matt:

Once a long time ago I started a thread “What is Sola Scriptura” and came up with about seven definitions that ranged from nuanced to very brute force. The nuanced definitions are held by most Protestants (even those who don’t use the term “Sola Scriptura”). The more brute force definitions are of course the more problematic ones (at least for me).

In reading your statements, it seems like you are drawing on a number of sources. While what you have done is pretty good, some of these statements (for example Scripture being perspicuous and self interpreting) are not held by the more nuanced definitions of Sola Scriptura and if you think about them have some issues. I thought of going through your stuff with a fine tooth comb and nitpicking it, but decided against it.

I actually might suggest you use one source as your primary source. I might suggest a book “The Shape of Sola Scriptura” by Keith Mathison. His definition is more nuanced than brute force and I for one had only a few relatively minor issues with it.

 

[look3467]

So if we have faith, then works will come naturally from that faith. Got it.

Wait…

Grace is a gift? Yes. Faith is a gift? Yes. But faith without works is dead. Would you agree to that?

If I said, here is a million dollars for you as a free gift.

If you said OK, but did not spend a dime of it, would you say you received a million dollars?

Show me the money, then I will believe you received a million dollars.

But before I could show the money I would first have to have received it, then after that I could show I have it by spending it.

God’s grace is a free gift that must first be received, realized and then good works will follow.

Good works are two-fold. One are works done with a motive for self gratification.
Two, are works done out of love for God of which are self sacrificing(God motivated)

The argument in the book of James are about the two types.

I need not to be required to do good works to show my love for God, for they are done willingly, verses those works done to prop up one-self’s image.

There are those then and now, and shall be that will show forth good works as a matter of showing their self righteousness, of which are no lack of.

As for faith being a free gift, read: Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Key words: every, measure of faith, given.

Have you received your free gift with the measure of faith meted out to you to where the will to do good works stems from your heart of love towards God willingly?

If so, then you can be proved to have faith by your works.

So the argument went in the book of James, and so it is today.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Matt:

Once a long time ago I started a thread “What is Sola Scriptura” and came up with about seven definitions that ranged from nuanced to very brute force. The nuanced definitions are held by most Protestants (even those who don’t use the term “Sola Scriptura”). The more brute force definitions are of course the more problematic ones (at least for me).

In reading your statements, it seems like you are drawing on a number of sources. While what you have done is pretty good, some of these statements (for example Scripture being perspicuous and self interpreting) are not held by the more nuanced definitions of Sola Scriptura and if you think about them have some issues. I thought of going through your stuff with a fine tooth comb and nitpicking it, but decided against it.

I actually might suggest you use one source as your primary source. I might suggest a book “The Shape of Sola Scriptura” by Keith Mathison. His definition is more nuanced than brute force and I for one had only a few relatively minor issues with it.

It is pretty clear cut in the scriptures alone, if one is able to see it.

Faith is a spiritual happening and nothing physical about it except for its manifestation in the flesh.

Ref: Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

“In spirit” is within you, to worship God in Spirit, and the truth shall set you free to do so.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Pretty plain to me.

Blessings, AJ

 

[ronin67]

What sola Scriptura is not

Now that we have discussed what SS is, it is time to distinguish what SS is not. SS is not an attack on “tradition.” When traditions are based on Scripture and are in perfect harmony with the written Word of God, these traditions are good because they help clarify and organize Christian faith and practice. When human tradition is placed on equal authority or more with Scripture, it ends up morphing the teachings of Scripture and actually becoming contradictory with those teachings. This is precisely what happened in the Catholic Church over the many centuries before the Protestant Reformation. While SS is not an attack on tradition, it is an attack on unbiblical, extra-biblical, and anti-biblical doctrine. SS does not abolish church traditions; to the contrary: it gives churches a solid foundation on which to build their traditions.

The doctrine of SS does not deny authority over the church as a whole and individual pastors. Protestants believe that the church (as the “pillar and ground of truth,” 1 Tim 3:15), has the God-given duty to proclaim God’s Word and teach His Word faithfully. SS simply states that all authorities — whether they be the church, pastors or church traditions — must be subordinate to God’s known revelation in the Bible. While SS does not deny the authorities appropriate to the aforementioned positions, it does teach that these authorities must be subject to and corrected by the Scriptures: they can never teach a doctrine that is of human origin or that is contradicted by the Bible.

SS does not imply that the Scriptures contain all of the knowledge in the world, it only implies that the Bible contains all the truths that are necessary for us to be saved through faith in Christ and by His grace. The Bible is not a science textbook or an organized catechism: the information in the Bible is said to be enough “to make [us] wise unto salvation” 2 Tim 3:15], but not “exhaustive” in any sense of the word.

SS does not attempt to deny the fact that God revealed Himself in other ways besides the written Scriptures. It is true and evident that God actually spoke to the prophets of old and to the Apostles in Christ, but the Holy Spirit moved men to permanently record God’s revelation for the benefit of the people of the post-apostolic age as their sole infallible source of God’s message [cf. **2 Pet 1:21

]. The Scriptures are more authoritative because they are tangible and definite where tradition has the capacity to change to benefit your own opinions.

This doctrine does not imply that the Bible will always be interpreted correctly or that there won’t be differences of interpretation among Christians, it is possible for a message to be simple and yet be misunderstood by some. This is evident from the example of Christ and His Apostles. Many times Christ’s point was painfully clear and yet they still could not understand Him at times: this is how the many heresies crept into the early church. The Bible was written for the ordinary people of God and is completely understandable once we get rid of all of our ignorance, theological prejudice, and our apathy.

YES!!! I love it. A fellow Catholic who gets what Sola Scriptura really means. I wish we could get the rest of the Catholic population on board. I love this guy!

May God Bless!

 

[MartinJordan]

The trouble with SS, is that how do we know what should be in the Bible and what shouldn’t. Some Eastern Churches even use Macabees 3 and 4. So what is the Bible?

Not as “Basic” as one would think.

*The Bible was written for the ordinary people of God and is completely understandable once we get rid of all of our ignorance, theological prejudice, and our apathy.
*

Your source please. Thanks.

MJ

 

[zach_dunn]

Christ did create an independent state, one of a direct relationship with Him.

Couldn’t get more independent from any organization than that.

This is not what I was talking about at all . . . I’m asking if you would be independent of a Church if Christ Himself established the Church.

Being set free means exactly that, not tied down to any whim of mankind’s making.

I am a believer in the atoning grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ whose blood has cleansed me free to become independent in my own state, yet dependent on Jesus as my God.

I owe it all to Him as my God for there is no other name under heaven by which mankind can be saved, thus…my God.

I honestly do not understand what you mean by being “independent in my own state” and you being “free” . . . could you explain?

As far as revelations, it is not what you may think, nothing profound as to pronounce it to the world, but simply giving me understanding of His wonderful works found in His word.

Blessings, AJ

How are you sure that it is authentic?

 

[zach_dunn]

It sounds like you are jumping from Sola Scriptura to Sola Fide. Catholics believe we are saved by faith. We just don’t follow we are saved by faith alone. But that is a discussion for another thread .

I agree that sola Fide is off topic and so is talking about what sola Scriptura leads too . . . right now I’m interested in getting more takes on what sola Scriptura is, thanks!