Sola Scriptura is Absolutely biblical

[MDK]

An INVALID MAN-MADE ATTEMPT TO CONFINE GOD AND HIS WORD TO A LITTLE BOX WHEREIN EACH AND EVERY BILLY-JOEBOB CAN SET UP A CHURCH IN A TENT AND TELL THE WORLD WHAT “GOD” SAID.

Frankly, there was no such thing as “sola scriptura” until the 1500’s when Luther was sitting on the “throne”…and yes, I do mean precisely “that” throne… should you feel the inclination to go “indignant”…KNOCK YOURSELF OUT!! But before you go off the deep end and make some silly reply… go here and read the first couple of paragraphs: tanbooks.com/doct/facts_luther.htm

Good job, Rob.

 

[guanophore]

God did use all of those things. But they were never the authority. God was. God is in control. God did use people and councils to help people recognize his Bible. But the people were never the authority. God was.
You start off correct but change to protect your presuppositions at the end.

You are separating something that is not meant to be separated.

2 Peter 1:21
“…men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

The men and women are not removed from the HS who speaks through them. This is why Jesus says:

16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” Luke 10:16

This is Christ, sharing His authority with His apostles.

Matt 28:18-20
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

In scripture, it is advisable, when one sees a 'therefore" to look and see what it is “there for”. In this case, Jesus is using the basis of his own authority for sharing that authority with His apostles.

Yes, it is God working, but through people.

Quit talking about my emotions. We are guys. We do not talk about emotions.

This myth, in my opinion, is in a great part what is wrong with our present society. It is a major contributing source of alcoholism an domestic violence.

 

[guanophore]

I agree with some of what you wrote but as everyone else you put your particular denominaton above God. It is a shame but I see a lot of that.

The Catholic Church is not a “denomination”. If you look up this word, it will become clear that the denomination is what breaks off. All other faith communities define themselves by how they are different from the Catholic Church.

Jesus identified Himself completely with His Church. It is not possible to separate the Head from the Body.

There is only One Body, One Church. All who are members of Christ are members of His One Body, the Church.

 

[MDK]

You want me to prove a negative. I want you to prove a single of so called sacred traditons that come from Christ or his apostles. Can you do that? Something outside of scripture? You see, I have scripture, and you do too, but you guys claim somethin else.
Sacred Tradition you call it. Of course this is not uncommon to believe in a nubulous tradition outside of scripture. The numbers of groups which claim this number in the thousands. All I want is someone to prove one that comes from Christ of his apostles.

Already been proven. Can you read, or do you simply act like you don’t know?

 

[SIA]

Hello Friends,

“It is written”…

(15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
(16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 3:15-17

(18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
(19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
(20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
(21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:18-21

Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39

Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

You have the freedom of conscience.
“I receive not honor from men.” John 5:41

If, I repeat if you support freedom of conscience and that of choice, allow the following link to remain, and people to look for themselves. If Catholicism is truth then allow it to be compared.

amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-Media-RtR-Video.html

“Here I stand I can do no other.” Martin Luther

If you do not believe in Sola Scriptura, the following statement from New York Catechism is simple to swallow.

“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of the Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the found of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.” Quoted in the New York Catechism

God help us when a man places himself above the " Holy One of Israel," Jesus Christ alone is salvation found in.

Righteousness by faith

Galatians 5:5-6
(5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
(6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

[Emphasis of bold added, to make clear Jesus Christ alone is salvation in and no other]

amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-Media-RtR-Video.html

Search for yourselves, Jesus Christ wants so much to have a personal relationship with you.

Amen to that! Who can argue with what the Scriptures plainly say? I’ll tell you who; the Roman Catholic church. Let em’ argue, that’s because their doctrines and dogma many times contradict the Holy Word of God. They argue against what you said very hard because deep down in their heart of hearts, they know that what you said is correct and it’s the truth.

 

[guanophore]

 I want you to prove a single of so called sacred traditons that come from Christ or his apostles.  Can you do that?  Something outside of scripture?  You see, I have scripture, and you do too, but you guys claim somethin else.

Sacred Tradition you call it. Of course this is not uncommon to believe in a nubulous tradition outside of scripture. The numbers of groups which claim this number in the thousands. All I want is someone to prove one that comes from Christ of his apostles.

Please, Rightlydivide, prove to us that the books included in the NT come from Christ or his Apostles. :coffeeread:

Every NT quote that uses graphe is an example of what that constitutes. One reason the deuterocanonicals are never called that.
I do not define what is in the canon. God does.

I agree, which is why we use the canon used by Jesus and His Apostles.

We do not need to know what the canon was in 30 AD. Most of you do not accept that there was one.

There were certainly collections of the Holy Writings. We accept the ones that Jesus and the Apostles accepted.

You believe in the myth of a different canon for different groups of Jews. Of course the Bible rejects this and also scholars are coming around to this as well.
Finally the myth of an Alexandrian canon is being exposed for the myth that it is.

LOL. The Bible rejects this?

 

[cfrancis]

Amen to that! Who can argue with what the Scriptures plainly say? I’ll tell you who; the Roman Catholic church. Let em’ argue, that’s because their doctrines and dogma many times contradict the Holy Word of God. They argue against what you said very hard because deep down in their heart of hearts, they know that what you said is correct and it’s the truth.

SIA, can you help me out? What was that verse in the Bible that defines the canon of Scripture?

 

[SIA]

SIA, can you help me out? What was that verse in the Bible that defines the canon of Scripture?

Well, maybe you are thiking of the Holy Spirit discerning it to the councils of the Early Church. If you think that the books of Scriptures including the Gospels where Jesus speaks and preaches are not canonized, I guess I can’t help you.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

No. None are needed. God provided the Bible.

And historically, no one could agree on precisely what the canon was until the Catholic Church’s councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthage. God provided the Bible that illuminates your way through the Catholic Church’s councils. Therefore, to believe this particular canon is authoritative, you have to believe the councils are authoritative.

I have never said that you need the list in the Bible itself. God is the authority and he gave us the Bible. I would never limit God.

Yes, you do. You limit him by denying that he will speak infallibly through the Pope or Church councils.

The proof is actually in the Bible to support my view. In 2nd Timothy it is referred to as “scripture” and yet it does not state what that is. I believe God that he had scripture at the time but did not need to define that in scripture itself.

Scripture was sacred from the moment it was written. But the canon was not known at that time. You wouldn’t know what books exactly belong to the scripture if it wasn’t for the authority of the Church councils that selected the books.

Now if you want to argue with God about the framework he sets, knock yourself out.

That’s what I believe you are doing.

Your view that an extra authority is needed is not in the Bible,

1 Timothy 3:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:2.

it is not the view of any of the early patristic writings,

Here’s a string of quotations from the Early Church Fathers about Tradition:
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp

Rightlydivide:

and cannot be defended.

Clearly, it can easily be defended. Sola Scriptura, on the other hand, is not in the Bible at all. There is no passage that says Scripture alone and none that says Faith alone, though there are many that assert the extreme importance of Scripture and Faith in Christian life. Sola Scriptura is scripturally indefensible.

 

[cfrancis]

Well, maybe you are thiking of the Holy Spirit discerning it to the councils of the Early Church. If you think that the books of Scriptures including the Gospels where Jesus speaks and preaches are not canonized, I guess I can’t help you.

OK, this raises an issue. How can an extra-Biblical source be binding on you (unless you don’t accept the canon)?

 

[MDK]

Well, maybe you are thiking of the Holy Spirit discerning it to the councils of the Early Church. If you think that the books of Scriptures including the Gospels where Jesus speaks and preaches are not canonized, I guess I can’t help you.

SIA,
Hello. C’mon here. I really think you know better. How do we know that these words were spoken by Christ? Of course, we both believe the Bible is inspired by God. However, my authority for canon is the Church. The church existed before the Bible, and gave us the Bible. What is your authority? That’s what it boils down to.

 

[SIA]

OK, this raises an issue. How can an extra-Biblical source be binding on you (unless you don’t accept the canon)?

I’m not sure I follow you. If you are referrring to the question of authority in Christianity,
Scripture comes first but does not stand alone where I come from. I realize that you have 3 authorities in your church all being called equal.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

MDK, when I was a Protestant, I’d never thought about this issue at all either, until Catholics brought it to my attention. So I fully accept SIA’s statement that he’s not really following the line of reasoning. So don’t attack him.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure I follow you. If you are referrring to the question of authority in Christianity,
Scripture comes first but does not stand alone where I come from. I realize that you have 3 authorities in your church all being called equal.

By what authority was it determined which books held the words of Jesus? how come the Gospel of Thomas, and the Epistle of Barnabas is not in the NT?

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I’m not sure I follow you. If you are referrring to the question of authority in Christianity,
Scripture comes first but does not stand alone where I come from. I realize that you have 3 authorities in your church all being called equal.

That’s right, but we were asking about the authority for you of the canon itself. How do you know that these books of the Bible are the true Word of God? How do you know other books shouldn’t be in the Bible, or that some of the ones in your Bible aren’t actually not inspired?

Don’t get me wrong- I’m not attacking the canon. I’m convinced we’ve got the right canon because the Church council had the authority to declare what books belong in the canon without any possibility of error. I’m just asking how you as a Protestant know the canon is correct.

 

[cfrancis]

No. None are needed. God provided the Bible. I have never said that you need the list in the Bible itself. God is the authority and he gave us the Bible. I would never limit God.

No one mentioned or hinted at limiting God. Please, drop this canard, as you do not believe God is limited when He uses spit and mud, then tells the blind man to wash in the pool to regain his sight; or when Peter’s shadow falls upon the sick and they are healed.

The proof is actually in the Bible to support my view. In 2nd Timothy it is referred to as “scripture” and yet it does not state what that is. I believe God that he had scripture at the time but did not need to define that in scripture itself.

2 Tim actually is not proof for your point, but I’m sure you recognize that. Proof for your point would actually be a list in Scripture, whereby no extra-Biblical authority is needed.

Now if you want to argue with God about the framework he sets, knock yourself out.

Do you find such tactics normally work for you?

Your view that an extra authority is needed is not in the Bible, it is not the view of any of the early patristic writings, and cannot be defended.

As you’ve provided no Bible verse to define the canon (or one that defines the criteria by which a book would be included in the canon); and as the early church fathers do not refer use Bible verses to determine the canonicity of a writing, it appears your position is indefensible.

 

[MDK]

MDK, when I was a Protestant, I’d never thought about this issue at all either, until Catholics brought it to my attention. So I fully accept SIA’s statement that he’s not really following the line of reasoning. So don’t attack him.

I’m not attacking him. I really like him personally. He’s not a neophyte, though, having seen this before. I think he would make a good Catholic once he joins with his other half, TIA.

 

[SIA]

That’s right, but we were asking about the authority for you of the canon itself. How do you know that these books of the Bible are the true Word of God? How do you know other books shouldn’t be in the Bible, or that some of the ones in your Bible aren’t actually not inspired?

Don’t get me wrong- I’m not attacking the canon. I’m convinced we’ve got the right canon because the Church council had the authority to declare what books belong in the canon without any possibility of error. I’m just asking how you as a Protestant know the canon is correct.

because of the councils of the Early Church and the Holy Spirit working through them. Look, this wasn’t an instant process. It took a long prayerful painstakingly long time and much discernment from the Holy Spirit to get what we have today as the 66 books of the Bible. It wasn’t an instant process.

 

[cfrancis]

because of the councils of the Early Church and the Holy Spirit working through them. Look, this wasn’t an instant process. It took a long prayerful painstakingly long time and much discernment from the Holy Spirit to get what we have today as the 66 books of the Bible. It wasn’t an instant process.

So, if an extra-Biblical source is binding for you - that is, you abide by that source’s decision on the canon - how can you then believe in Sola Scriptura? After all, there is nothing in Scripture about the canon.

 

[SIA]

So, if an extra-Biblical source is binding for you - that is, you abide by that source’s decision on the canon - how can you then believe in Sola Scriptura? After all, there is nothing in Scripture about the canon.

You must have missed my last post. I said that Scripture comes first in a line of authority in our church but does not stand alone.