Sola Scriptura Is Not God's Plan - An Argument

[Nick_Jones]

The immediate context proves that the subject is Peter, not Jesus. So it goes from Jesus to Peter to Jesus. That doesn’t mean that all that’s in the middle is not about Peter.

In which of these passages below do we find the teaching that Peter is the head of the church?

Matt.16:13-20
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

---

Mark 8:27-30
Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?”

They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Christ.”

Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

---

Luke 9:18-21
Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, “Who do the crowds say I am?”

They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life.”

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “The Christ of God.”

Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone.

 

[anthony022071]

Here you are using a circular argument–you’re attempting to prove your point by simply assuming your point.

You said: < Following your logic we would need to add that grace cannot save anyone because there is no single agreed upon definition for the word, “grace.” >

But the saving effect of God’s grace is obviously not comparable with the practibility of sola scriptura.

Although I’m in agreement with you that grace is a FREE gift (it cannot be merited or earned) there are millions of people who call themselves “Christians” who firmly believe what Rome teaches; that the grace that saves requires some degree of cooperation and effort on the part of the individual.

Salvation entails a covenant with God. Salvation is not a done-deal contract made effectual through the initial act of faith. A covenant requires committment and faithfullness,or fullness of faith,to God’s commandments. God commands that we do things like forgive,be merciful,and give to the poor and needy. God’s grace helps us to do these things. But if we don’t do them,then there is a question as to whether we even have God’s grace. God’s grace is a free gift,but because God allows us free will,we can reject that gift. God’s giving of the grace that saves does not determine whether we accept that gift.
Even Judas was called by Jesus Christ.

As Paul said,we must continue in God’s kindness;otherwise we may be cut off from the vine.

 

[justinthemartyr]

Nick Jones;3287794:

Here you are using a circular argument–you’re attempting to prove your point by simply assuming your point.

You said: < Following your logic we would need to add that grace cannot save anyone because there is no single agreed upon definition for the word, “grace.” >

But the saving effect of God’s grace is obviously not comparable with the practibility of sola scriptura.

Although I’m in agreement with you that grace is a FREE gift (it cannot be merited or earned) there are millions of people who call themselves “Christians” who firmly believe what Rome teaches; that the grace that saves requires some degree of cooperation and effort on the part of the individual.

Salvation entails a covenant with God. Salvation is not a done-deal contract made effectual through the initial act of faith. A covenant requires committment and faithfullness,or fullness of faith,to God’s commandments. God commands that we do things like forgive,be merciful,and give to the poor and needy. God’s grace helps us to do these things. But if we don’t do them,then there is a question as to whether we even have God’s grace. God’s grace is a free gift,but because God allows us free will,we can reject that gift. God’s giving of the grace that saves does not determine whether we accept that gift.
Even Judas was called by Jesus Christ.

As Paul said,we must continue in God’s kindness;otherwise we may be cut off from the vine.

True, and not only cut off, but withered, and burned up if we do not continue(repent, confess, return and be regrafted into the True Vine).

 

[mikeledes]

In which of these passages below do we find the teaching that Peter is the head of the church?

Matt.16:13-20
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

---

Mark 8:27-30
Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?”

They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Christ.”

Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

---

Luke 9:18-21
Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, “Who do the crowds say I am?”

They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life.”

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “The Christ of God.”

Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone.

In the following passages, Jesus singles out Peter:

John 21:15-17

**15So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You " He said to him, “Tend My lambs.”
16He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.”
17He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You " Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep. **

Luke 22:31-32

**31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
32but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers." **

Why does he single out Peter? Moreover, why does the angel of God single out Peter?

Mark 16:7

**“But go, tell His disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.’” **

Moreover, what was the purpose of changing’s Simon name to “Cephas” or “Peter”, which means ‘rock’ and then immediately say that upon “this rock” He would build his church?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Here you are using a circular argument–you’re attempting to prove your point by simply assuming your point. Although I’m in agreement with you that grace is a FREE gift (it cannot be merited or earned) there are millions of people who call themselves “Christians” who firmly believe what Rome teaches; that the grace that saves requires some degree of cooperation and effort on the part of the individual.

So when you believed, it was completely against you will? You absolutely played no role in making a profession of faith or calling on His name? You are just a mere puppet?

Moreover, the Bible states:

Hebrews 4:11

11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Galatians 6:7-9

**7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. **

Romans 8:12-13

**12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. **

1 Corinthians 9:27

**27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. **

1 John 2:24

**24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. **

All of these verses clearly use the language of cooperation and all of them ultimately involve salvation. God invoves our cooperation in accomplishing His plan of salavtion. An eternal decree does not necessarily exclude human cooperation. For example, you believe that fall of Adam was an eternal decree of God. And yet, you would not say that this decree was executed in time without Adam’s cooperation. Otherwise, you would make God directly responsible for his sin.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[loscampos]

There are a few fatal flaws in this view of yours:

1. Without the Scriptures, how on earth can you, or anyone else, determine which religion and/or which religious teachings are from God?
2. How is it possible to hold the view that “the church has more authority than the bible,” without viciously insulting God? Without God’s word, “the church” is just a bunch of prideful lost souls inventing whatever doctrines seem useful to maintain control over the masses.

Sorry for the late reply,

1. This one is rather simple.
   A. The pillar of Truth is the Church 1 Tim 3: 15
   B. Who has the power to bind and prevent things from entering heaven? The church Mt 16:19
   C. Who has the power to baptize, since we cant bapitize ourselves and the bible cant baptize us? The Church Jn 3:6
   D. In James 5:13 we are told to confess our sins to one another. What good is it to confess my sins to someone who doesnt have the authority to forgive them. Did God possibly leave someone or entity that authority? the church can bind not the bible.

My question to you on number 1 is: If baptism is required for salvation and and the bible cant baptize me, then who has this authority?

1. From the above clearly the church is more than just an idle piece of nothing. In Mt 18:17 we are told to go to the church to settle our differnces not the bible. In 2 Pet 1:20 we are told that the bible is not for our own interpretation.

On a side note I find it odd that the apostles when asked “And Jesus came into the quarters of Cæsarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is?” Mt 16:13 , with all that scripture floating around none of them could figure who the son of man was. It wasnt until Peter spoke with the holy spirit that he knew who the son of man was.

Also did not the pharasies have scripture and still didnt recognize who the son of man was? Jesus created a church as his body, not scripture.

If you have any further questions please feel free to ask. I enjoy communicating in a civilized manner going from point to point.

 

[mikeledes]

It seems to me that if the bible doesn’t teach anything about a papacy, then no pope existed in the early church. Here is just ONE passage where the NT would very likely mention something about a pope or a papal office of some kind, but it doesn’t. Instead we find that the HEAD OF THE CHURCH IS CHRIST:

Eph. 4:11-16
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

No one is arguing that Christ is not the head of the Church. Christ is the Good Shepherd. That does not exclude other shepherds under His authority. The Pope is under the authority of Christ. Ironically, this verse demonstrates that God established a teaching authority that would safeguard and correctly interpret the deposit of faith. Why does He give us teachers?

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work

To prevent His people from falling into heresy.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

It seems to me that if the bible doesn’t teach anything about a papacy, then no pope existed in the early church. Here is just ONE passage where the NT would very likely mention something about a pope or a papal office of some kind, but it doesn’t. Instead we find that the HEAD OF THE CHURCH IS CHRIST:

Eph. 4:11-16
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

No one is arguing that Christ is not the head of the Church. Christ is the Good Shepherd. That does not exclude other shepherds under His authority. The Pope is under the authority of Christ. Ironically, this verse demonstrates that God established a teaching authority that would safeguard and correctly interpret the deposit of faith. Why does He give us teachers?

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work

To prevent His people from falling into heresy. It seems that the devil was able to overpower God for nearly 1500 years until Martin Luther showed up to restore the true Gospel. And yet he believed in baptismal regeneration and did not believe in OSAS. And let’s not talk about all of the contradictory denominations that have appeared since, starting within the first two decades of the Reformation.

God Bless,
Michael

God bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

But the saving effect of God’s grace is obviously not comparable with the practibility of sola scriptura.

I must respectfully disagree. Most RC’s will say that God wants all people to be saved. Scripture says that we are saved by grace. So the question is, if we can’t know or even agree on what the definition of “grace” is, how should the RC attempt to obtain this “grace” for salvation? If you don’t really know what you’re looking for, how should you begin your search?

Salvation entails a covenant with God. Salvation is not a done-deal contract made effectual through the initial act of faith. A covenant requires committment and faithfullness,or fullness of faith,to God’s commandments. God commands that we do things like forgive,be merciful,and give to the poor and needy. God’s grace helps us to do these things. But if we don’t do them,then there is a question as to whether we even have God’s grace. God’s grace is a free gift,but because God allows us free will,we can reject that gift. God’s giving of the grace that saves does not determine whether we accept that gift.

A very good point! Salvation does entail a covenant with God. And it isn’t a momentary feeling or a one-time expression; faith needs to be enduring and abiding. But who, or what, is it that causes the elect to obtain this kind of faith? It is all given freely by God to those who He intends to save. Jesus is the Good Shepherd who will lose none of those whom the Father has given to Him. Our “free” will was lost in the fall through Adam. Hence the complete dependence upon the grace of God for our salvation.

 

[Nick_Jones]

No one is arguing that Christ is not the head of the Church. Christ is the Good Shepherd. That does not exclude other shepherds under His authority. The Pope is under the authority of Christ. Ironically, this verse demonstrates that God established a teaching authority that would safeguard and correctly interpret the deposit of faith. Why does He give us teachers?

Jesus didn’t come to the earth to start up another religion and we already have Jesus as our high Priest, so it is obvious that we have no need for any popes. Jesus came to the world to save His lost sheep. The deposit of faith is the Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit is our guide to understanding the Scriptures. Teachers are also necessary, but without God’s written word, what should the teachers teach?

 

[Nick_Jones]

To prevent His people from falling into heresy. It seems that the devil was able to overpower God for nearly 1500 years until Martin Luther showed up to restore the true Gospel.

Hi Michael,

I didn’t understand this part of your post. Are you saying that the existence of RC apostasy means that the devil was able to overpower God for nearly 1500 years?

 

[davidv]

Jesus didn’t come to the earth to start up another religion and we already have Jesus as our high Priest, so it is obvious that we have no need for any popes. Jesus came to the world to save His lost sheep. The deposit of faith is the Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit is our guide to understanding the Scriptures. Teachers are also necessary, but without God’s written word, what should the teachers teach?

How is it that this is so “obvious”? We have ~2000 years of history with a visible head of the Church in our midst, starting with Jesus and continuing with Peter and so on.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Sorry for the late reply,

1. This one is rather simple.
   A. The pillar of Truth is the Church 1 Tim 3: 15

OK, but can you tell me what the church is, or what the church would be like…without the Scriptures? ISTM that the pillar of Truth is the Church, and the foundation of the church is the Word of God.

 

[Nick_Jones]

B. Who has the power to bind and prevent things from entering heaven? The church Mt 16:19

True, it is the church that has been commissioned to spread the gospel message.

Who has the power to baptize, since we cant bapitize ourselves and the bible cant baptize us? The Church Jn 3:6

The kind of baptism you’ve referred to here (John 3:6) is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. A spiritual rebirth is absolutely essential for anyone to even begin to trust in Jesus, and in Him alone, for salvation:

1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

10"You are Israel’s teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[mikeledes]

I must respectfully disagree. Most RC’s will say that God wants all people to be saved.

Then “most RC’s” must be right, since Scripture says:

1 Timothy 2:3-4

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ezekiel 18:23

**23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? **

2 Peter 3:9

9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

In James 5:13 we are told to confess our sins to one another. What good is it to confess my sins to someone who doesnt have the authority to forgive them. Did God possibly leave someone or entity that authority? the church can bind not the bible.

Every sin is an offense to God and only God can forgive sins. The reason we are told to “confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed” is not because human beings have any power to heal or forgive sins, but to be supportive of each other. It is God who heals and forgives, and we need the love and support of our fellow bothers and sisters in Christ. We are branches that need to be connected to the vine.

 

[mikeledes]

The kind of baptism you’ve referred to here (John 3:6) is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. A spiritual rebirth is absolutely essential for anyone to even begin to trust in Jesus, and in Him alone, for salvation:

Explain the case of Cornelius, who the Bible explicitly states was “baptized with the Spirit” in Acts 10:44.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

My question to you on number 1 is: If baptism is required for salvation and and the bible cant baptize me, then who has this authority?

Water baptism won’t save anyone. We are saved by grace, not by rituals, ceremonies, or any kind of human works.

 

[mikeledes]

Jesus didn’t come to the earth to start up another religion and we already have Jesus as our high Priest, so it is obvious that we have no need for any popes. Jesus came to the world to save His lost sheep. The deposit of faith is the Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit is our guide to understanding the Scriptures. Teachers are also necessary, but without God’s written word, what should the teachers teach?

When the early Church had it’s first controversy regarding salvation, it resolved it throug a church council attended by the leadership of the Church:

Acts 15:1-2, 6.

1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.

The decisions rendered by this council were binding on all Christians:

Acts 16:4

4Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the decrees which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe.

This clearly demonstrates that the church Jesus established was an organized body with a *teaching authority *(i.e.apostles and elders) that rendered decisions on doctrine and discipline binding on all Christians.

Of course you need divine revelation first in order to be able to teach. No one is denying that. The problem is that:

1. There is no place in Scripture that states that divine revelation is limited to the Bible. “Useful” or “profitable” is not the equivalent of “exclusive” or “only.” A pen is useful for writing, but it is not the only thing you can use to write. A doctrine like Sola Scriptura, that is so “essential” to Christianity, should be clearlt stated in Scripture. However, you do have in Scripture:

2 Thessalonians 2:15

15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

1. God established a teaching authority to ensure the correct interpretation of Divine Revelation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Water baptism won’t save anyone. We are saved by grace, not by rituals, ceremonies, or any kind of human works.

And we are saved by Christ and He has freely chosen to confer grace - apply salvation - through baptism:

Mark 16:16

**16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. **

Acts 2:37-38

37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

God bless,
Michael