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rinnie
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Oh buts thats the Joy of it all! We do not need scripture at all. WE HAVE THE CHURCH. Sy, Where do you think those scripture teachings came from? You got it the Catholic CHurch my friend.
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Bill_Pick
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You had to repent for being in the KofC,May God please tell us what you did as a KofC that you had to repent from. I,l wait for this or heard this
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rinnie
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Mickey, he said he was a knight, and he also said that the Church tells us we are stupid. Something just is not right here? I smell a rat!
I have never in my life known a Knight that did not understand the teachings of the RCC. I know my Dad studied for YEARS. He studied and had tons of books.
I am helping out (very little compared to others and I have to learn all of the 16 documents of the Vatican Council ll.) And I am having my hands full learning that. That book is like 600 pages long. And you can’t just breeze through it.
That could not even compare to what the knights learn.
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rinnie
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Oh Lapey
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Lapey
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I cannot believe you are legitimate. There is no way you were a RC Christian. Even if the typical congregation in a Catholic Church is as uneducated in scripture as you believe, the typical Catholic is not as ignorant as you are about the teachings of the Catholic Church.Hi Convert. I’m glad you have a teacher that is open to the scriptures. That is a good thing. If you take a text only version that you can mark up and start by reading the historic spine of the bible while you underline all of the verses that teach you something about God it is amazing to go back and read what you have underlined and reflect upon what you have learned. It is great to memorize the verses that had a special impact on you. That way you can always keep scripture in your heart.
Here is the chronological historic spine of the bible:
Genesis
Exodus
Numbers
Joshua
Judges
1&2 Samuel
1&2 Kings
Ezra
Nehemia
(1 Maccabees If you insist)
Luke
Acts
Then you can finish the rest of the bible while you reference all of the things you just learned from this core material. There is some more history, law, literature, poetry, wisdom, prophecy, epistles and more gospels.
I was never an RCIA teacher, but there was a time I was a sponser. I sponsered a Lutheran into the RCC. I attended class with him and answered his questions and stood with him during his reception. I was also a member of the Knights of Columbus. I’ve repented of it though and believe God has forgiven me.
God bless,
David
Please enlighten us as to why one should repent for belonging to the K of C.
One other question, is it surprising to you to find people involved in RCIA formation that are “open to the bible” as you call it? If so, I doubt very seriously your statement about sponsoring a candidate for RCIA.
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SyCarl
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How do you know the Church has any authority?Oh buts thats the Joy of it all! We do not need scripture at all. WE HAVE THE CHURCH. Sy, Where do you think those scripture teachings came from? You got it the Catholic CHurch my friend.
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Roy5
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THE REAL PROBLEM
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I think I represent the opinion of many millions of Christians as well as ex-Christians when I suggest that the problem is not sola scriptura or no sola scriptura.
The problem is that in either case we are those who can't force ourselves to believe what we in all good conscience simply cannot believe. Many of us who are educated in the scriptures as well as church teachings, both Catholic and Protestant, have reluctantly come to the conclusion that there is too much in traditional Catholicism as well as sola scriptural Protestantism that we cannot accept. Some observers would condemn us as a result, but would you want us to be hypocrites and assent to what we don't accept as 'gospel truth'?
Our problem with traditional Catholicism is that over the centuries it has added more and more doctrines and practices that strike us as not only unbelievable but actually pagan - borrowed from or influenced by the myths and miracles commonplace in the ancient world. These would include undue emphasis on Mariology, transubstantiation, various aspects of the saint phenomenon, and such practices as required priestly celibacy and the whole contemporary annulment process.
Our problem with sola scriptura (and this applies to traditional Catholicism, too) is that there are many fables, legends, myths and false history in the Bible (e. g., Adam and Eve, Noah and the Flood) and some concepts are simply anti-Christian (e. g., endorsement of slavery, 'suffer not a witch to live', and much more). Space doesn't permit me to start citing the scores of examples, but I did mention a few more specifics in an earlier posting.
While millions have fallen away from Christianity completely because of this, I love Christ and remain in the church and continue to be active in it. But - for exmaple - I simply refuse to say the Apostles Creed when that is recited. It was written for a different age ('sitteth on the right hand of God the Father'???), contains doctrines I question (virgin birth) and some that I don't accept (our physical resurrection).
We could go on, but I suspect that I've annoyed enough fine folks already. Isn't it shameful that religion is such a barrier among us when faith should serve as a bridge that draws people who profess God closer together? Those religions that emphasize that they alone follow the one true path are, in my view, inimical to the spirit of Christ and the cause of so much misunderstanding and prejudice in the world.
God bless Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus - abnd all God's children regardless of creed, color or country.
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humblelurker
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Yes it was tongue and cheek.
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MrS
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That is an interesting point… try asking a protestant what he would have done, and how the would have done it if the Holy Spirit had not used Catholics to declare canon and assemble the Bible. In other words, what would they have if they had NO Bible.Oh buts thats the Joy of it all! We do not need scripture at all. WE HAVE THE CHURCH. Sy, Where do you think those scripture teachings came from? You got it the Catholic CHurch my friend.
If he turns the question on you by asking what we would do if there had never been a Church… well the answer is obvious that either Christ lied, or, at the very least, he would not have his floppy Bible.
Christ promised His Church the Holy Spirit… He did not promise His Church a Bible, and if that said protestant thinks God’s promise implies the Bible… well okay… why should the NT be assembled by apostates. Was the OT assembled by apostates?
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DD2007
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Well, I wasn’t addressing you. Believe what you will. I have no reason to lie. Lying is a sin anyway.
Years ago I posted regularly on CF under a different title on your side. I started the DD2007 profile after a period of disillusionment hoping you guys could help me stay in the RCC. Yet, I have been solidly convicted of the truth and I have fully and publically recanted my former Roman Catholic theology that I subscribed to to everyone I used to argue for it against. I am now an active member of the PCA and have fully embraced Reformed Theology.
I will not tell you anything about the Knights of Columbus because I swore to them I wouldn’t reveal anything and I will abide by my word.
Bible reading was only encouraged in our Church if you let the RCC interpret it for you. In RCIA we used a lot of Apologetics for the RCC.
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rinnie
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The Keys Sy the Keys. Peter has the keys to the kingdom. Jesus left the authority to Peter and his Apostles in Communion with him. Jesus said all my father has give me I now give to you. Do you agree that Jesus had authority. If you do then you must agree that he had that authority to pass down, which he did. Now he either had it or he didn’t.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ had the authority to forgive sin? Then you must agree that he was given that authority from God. Then you must agree that he passed it down to the Apostles like he said. Or you cannot believe he had it at all.
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rinnie
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Because Jesus left us the Apostles and the APostles told us he was leaving us the Advocate the HS. It was passed down by Tradition. Actually all of the scripture was passed down Oral until many many years after Jesus. I believe the NT was not completed until like 40 years or so after the death of Jesus. So it could not be the bible now could it there Sy ole buddy because the bible was not even completed then.
IT was all Oral teachings until the bible was written. Thats why the RCC could still exist and did exist long before the bible. How about your Church Sy can it say the same?
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rinnie
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Dd I have to ask you this. Please understand I was messing with you all in fun at times to try to take away alot of the tension off the thread. If I hurt you please accept my humble apology. But I have a serious question now. If you were RC and in the Knights, why would you not have gone to Father, or you Brothers in the faith to help you. I mean surely the Knights would have helped you.
Now I have one serious question. What teaching that the RCC claimed to be dogma do you feel has changed over the years, and what was the largest reason for you leaving the faith? IF you are telling the truth this should be a very easy question for you. Especially being a knight and all as you claim.
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humblelurker
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SyCarl
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So you accept the Church says because the Church says it? How do you it has any authority except that it claims it for itself? How do you know know that what the Church says is what the Apostles said? How do you know what Holy Tradition says or that it gives the Church authority?
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rinnie
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Because it was under the inspiration of the HS which is God himself. Because there is no other book in the world that could say what it says and make sense. That had to come from God. And no other Church in the world can define scripture that way the Catholic Church does and have it not contradict itself.
No One person in the world could ever be that smart to write a book like that. It had to come from God. God choose the Apostles to teach it.
Or you know what Sy there could only be one other answer. There is no God, and there is no true word of God and the atheists are right. I know there is a God because he leads me to the RCC. In my soul I know I belong there. ITs like tell me what Love is. Show me. You can’t. I could tell you I love you forever. I could show you by buying you things. But you know what only I really know whats in my heart. You will never know the truth. But see I believe only God knows that truth and sees it. Its him and I. And I know he is real just as I am real. Just like me sy sure you can prove I exist because I am here. What about a thousand years from now. Same thing. You either believe in your heart that you are told the truth or you don’t.
But that belief down deep in your heart, and that truth you know that exists Thats God. And thats the Catholic Church. Because the main thing that separates us Sy is the Eucharist. We know that it is JESUS CHRIST ALIVE and Well in that Holy Communion we receive. Do we really See Jesus, NO BUT we FEEL him. Just like LOVe. YOU FEEL IT. YOU can’t explain it. Its just real! Its there, and you know its him.
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Don_Hepler
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You do not have eternial life nor do you know what that means.
I am not familiar with Sola but this is a perfect example of what happens when a group of gentiles steal the scriptures from Israel and then try to apply their interpertation to what is. You are all abomination to My GOD, Our scriptures have become a idol in your deceiving minds to lead people away. Claiming what is not yours to Claim. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will destroy your churches for they have all become corrupt before him. You have no authority to preach the The Word of GOD from our BIBLE for it is Israels record of Gods dealings with us. .
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SyCarl
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All I am asking you to realize that your belief is your interpretation. You can’t get to the Church being infallible without interpreting something. You have provided the evidence that you rely on. Based on that you have the opinion that the Church has authority. Once you get there you can rely on the Church but you must form the opinion first that you can trust the Church. Whether it is based on Scripture or history or your view of someone else’s opinion, it is your interpretation that the Church has the authority you can rely on.
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rinnie
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Ok sy let me try this another way. I believe that Jesus died, etc. Okay Now I believe that he came back and was in that room with the Apostles when he gave them the authority and the Power of the HS.
Now lets stop right there, Why do I believe that. Because I am one of Christs Sheep. Thats why, No book, no Church for that matter is going to change that. The HS is what has led my heart to believe.
Now why do I believe that the RCC is my teacher. Because I believe that the Apostles started the Catholic Church. Now lets start there do you believe that.
Okay if you do then do you believe that Jesus gave them the power of the HS… If you don’t you must stop there. ITs over. Because they either had the power or they did not.
Now if you believe they had the power to start the CC you have to believe it was the CC because Luther left it. He was once a Catholic Monk also.
Now here is the biggie. Jesus promised us that he is the Church, the Church is the living Christ. Now Luther left the church the church did not leave luther.
If the Pope left the Church I would no longer follow the Pope. Why because he would have left Jesus. Jesus is the Church. But the Pope is still in the CC. Now if I am correct and Jesus told me the Truth he promised me that he would lead his Pope and Bishops to reveal to us the fullness of the truth. Now do you agree that Jesus promised HS to the Apostles and they did indeed start the CC? Yes or no?
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