Sola Scriptura questions

[look3467]

Quote:
How we interpret them, well, that is up to the individual and to how that individual wants to worship God.
***That, AJ, is the most dangerous statement I’ve read on this thread. ***

(1) If an individual decides that women ought not be allowed to worship in church, based on his interpretations of Scripture, you’d be ok with that?

(2) And if an individual decides, upon reading the Bible and consulting the Holy Spirit, that he’s supposed to marry his 14 year old cousin, you’re ok with that?

Answer to (1) above: Originally, in the Old Testament, segregation was a standard of practice due to the set up of the Levitical priesthood.

One needs to understand that, because many of the Jews after Jesus’ resurrection still held to those views. So the transition to Christianity was not an easy one for them, thus Paul had to address them as such.

But if you read about Peter at Cornelius’ house, you will see that Peter also had to be converted to include, not just the Jews, but all others as well.

So for Peter and many others, the New Testament became a workbook to where these issues had to be worked out in light of what God’s love is.

Answer to (2) above: How old was Mary when she was espoused to Joseph?
Some cultures practice, here again, I stress the word practice, as in a doctrinal practice, the marriage or the espousing of young girls.

Again, it is our duty to look at all those issues and apply Godly guidance to them and then live accordingly.

Just as it was, and is in some cultures the practice of one man having more than one wife, but here in the USA, we chose to just be one man and one women.

So, that is something that we as USA citizens choose as a practice to conform to.

If we did not conform to it, then we would have to face the consequences of the law, but not necessarily mean that God would condemn such individuals to hell.

***That, AJ, is the most dangerous statement I’ve read on this thread. ***

Not dangerous at all, except to those who have standards set by their espoused beliefs.

My belief has only one standard, and that standard the world can see, and that is the cross set above a hill, called Golgotha, where there our Savior paid the price, for you, for me, and for every unbeliever in the world.

So it it that standard by which I hold all souls to, regardless of their doctrinal beliefs.

I encourage by pointing to Jesus as their Savior, and not to any doctrinal issues.

Those come later after conversion of the heart.

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

Answer to (1) above: Originally, in the Old Testament, segregation was a standard of practice due to the set up of the Levitical priesthood.

One needs to understand that, because many of the Jews after Jesus’ resurrection still held to those views. So the transition to Christianity was not an easy one for them, thus Paul had to address them as such.

But if you read about Peter at Cornelius’ house, you will see that Peter also had to be converted to include, not just the Jews, but all others as well.

So for Peter and many others, the New Testament became a workbook to where these issues had to be worked out in light of what God’s love is.

Answer to (2) above: How old was Mary when she was espoused to Joseph?
Some cultures practice, here again, I stress the word practice, as in a doctrinal practice, the marriage or the espousing of young girls.

Again, it is our duty to look at all those issues and apply Godly guidance to them and then live accordingly.

Just as it was, and is in some cultures the practice of one man having more than one wife, but here in the USA, we chose to just be one man and one women.

So, that is something that we as USA citizens choose as a practice to conform to.

If we did not conform to it, then we would have to face the consequences of the law, but not necessarily mean that God would condemn such individuals to hell.

Not dangerous at all, except to those who have standards set by their espoused beliefs.

My belief has only one standard, and that standard the world can see, and that is the cross set above a hill, called Golgotha, where there our Savior paid the price, for you, for me, and for every unbeliever in the world.

So it it that standard by which I hold all souls to, regardless of their doctrinal beliefs.

I encourage by pointing to Jesus as their Savior, and not to any doctrinal issues.

Those come later after conversion of the heart.

Blessings, AJ

Again, interesting doctrinal views, however, they are nonsequitors.

You have not addressed any of the points.

 

[PRmerger]

Not dangerous at all, except to those who have standards set by their espoused beliefs.

In your paradigm, AJ, you cannot counter my opinions with the above statement. For I believe that I have had a “conversion of the heart” and if the Holy Spirit convicted me of my viewpoint, you cannot object to it, eh?

 

[look3467]

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
The key to any of it and all of it is that the heart be converted to the love of God, and neighbor, as Jesus commanded.

I have seen many an individual who believes his heart is converted to the love of God who proclaims whacky, convoluted teachings.

Well, I will also say that even some who have been in the church for a long time have similar issues which reflect their level of understanding.

That is why I lead them to Christ first, so that they may come to understand what Christ wants from them in the way of dealing with neighbors.

A child, not fully mature will give evidence of some wackiness, thus, the need, as you like to point out, the church.

I have no disagreement with that.

Well, only those who have the Eucharist can truly do this “mano-a-mano” with God.

You just proved my point!

Communion with God is in the spirit: Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

And unless one first has that spirit of God indwelling, the truth of the spirit is not in one.

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

Well, I will also say that even some who have been in the church for a long time have similar issues which reflect their level of understanding.

That is why I lead them to Christ first, so that they may come to understand what Christ wants from them in the way of dealing with neighbors.

A child, not fully mature will give evidence of some wackiness, thus, the need, as you like to point out, the church.

I have no disagreement with that.

And if someone professes a belief that contradicts yours? How do you know if he’s mature in his faith or remains a child? If he agrees with you–is that how you know he’s mature and “in Christ”?

Communion with God is in the spirit

No. I have been “converted in my heart” and I disagree with you.

Now what?

 

[PRmerger]

I have no disagreement with that.

Your paradigm does not allow you to disagree with me!

You just proved my point!

Your paradigm does not allow you to have points to be proven, AJ!

In your system all who say they’ve been convicted of the Spirit are correct and our discussion here is as fruitless as your saying, “I believe vanilla is the best!” and my saying, “I believe chocolate is the best!” :whacky:

Not to mention, in your paradigm, you cannot tell these people that their doctrines are wrong, if they believe they’ve come to it sincerely and prayerfully:
-white supremacists
-wife beaters
-adulterers
-polygamists
-polytheists
etc etc etc

 

[look3467]

In your paradigm, AJ, you cannot counter my opinions with the above statement. For I believe that I have had a “conversion of the heart” and if the Holy Spirit convicted me of my viewpoint, you cannot object to it, eh?

I have no objections to anything you want to believe or practice, so long as it meets the standard of Christ’s two Commandments.

Now, some practices in the name of God may be harmful to our neighbor, and in which can be clearly discerned by our spirit, as one not in agreement.

*Some of those things are: hateful speech, condemnation of one’s beliefs, discrimination and or killing in the name of God.

As for your opinions, Christ died for them, so, how on earth could I counter them if I am to love as He did?

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

I have no objections to anything you want to believe or practice, so long as it meets the standard of Christ’s two Commandments.

You objected to my belief right here, AJ:

Not dangerous at all, except to those who have standards set by their espoused beliefs.

Do you see the corner you’ve painted yourself into?

In your paradigm, you have to let ALL beliefs and practices (homosexuality, polygamy, racism) be equal to your belief, provided someone believes he’s “mature” in the faith.

 

[PRmerger]

s for your opinions, Christ died for them, so, how on earth could I counter them if I am to love as He did?

Sad to say, AJ, you are correct. :sad_yes:

How on earth could you counter a racist’s beliefs with the paradigm you profess?

Now, thankfully, because of the Church which Jesus founded we have the sure norm for what is consistent with God’s will and what’s not, and Catholics can (and indeed must!) admonish the sinner.

 

[look3467]

In your system all who say they’ve been convicted of the Spirit are correct and our discussion here is as fruitless as your saying, “I believe vanilla is the best!” and my saying, “I believe chocolate is the best!” :whacky:

It’s still Ice Cream is it not?

Let’s see if I can put it in another way, our differences:
Let’s say I committed a crime, say stole 100,000 dollars. Went to prison.
Let’s say there was this fellow who said to me, look, I’ll paid the price for you to get free!
And I would say, how? He would tell me that He, Himself would substitute Himself for me, take my place in prison.
If I accepted His offer, I would then go free.

In the exchange, there was no requirement other than to accept the offer.

Notice the upper case H?

Jesus, substituted Himself for you and me, without any requirement other than to accept His offer.

So happens, that I am a no denominational believer, while you are a Catholic believer.

Our differences matters not to Jesus, for He gave us both the same offer.

We can both accept the offer and both of us go free.

Now, here is where the character building (spiritually speaking) begins, after the offer is accepted, is that we begin to live in our new spiritual environment, verses the old worldly environment.

Meaning than we are now spiritually minded verses worldly minded.

Your choice/form of worship is in the Catholic church, which is absolutely good.

As for me, I worship God daily in my heart, trust in His daily guidance, and know when He tuggs at my heart to show me, or indicate to me of something I need to correct, or address.

It is a one on one relationship with Him on a daily basis.

Now, I can go to, if I wanted to a church of similitude beliefs and worship God with them as well.

But my strength is not in the churches, but on my reliance on God directly, based on His word, His promises to me, to where I shall not want.

Not to mention, in your paradigm, you cannot tell these people that their doctrines are wrong, if they believe they’ve come to it sincerely and prayerfully:
-white supremacists
-wife beaters
-adulterers
-polygamists
-polytheists
etc etc etc

That is what the world is made up of, or in other words offer. It is from those things that God wants to liberate us from, but first we must want to be delivered.

The woman that was caught in adultery, Jesus forgave without question.

The hope was that in the forgiveness, the woman would want, desire not to engage in those things again, For the power to reject them lies in the resurrected Christ, which when that happened, Jesus was not yet arisen.

Here is an important key verse worth examining: Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

If we see God as a condemning God, then were is there room to come to Him in our sinful state?

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

What happens in the name of religion are many things: rape, incest, murder, hateful speech, torture.

Being in a religious organization does not guarantee righteousness, therefore, all are subject to failure.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Sad to say, AJ, you are correct. :sad_yes:

How on earth could you counter a racist’s beliefs with the paradigm you profess?

Now, thankfully, because of the Church which Jesus founded we have the sure norm for what is consistent with God’s will and what’s not, and Catholics can (and indeed must!) admonish the sinner.

Sad to say? No, happy to say, because if we all would think as Christ did about sinners, we’d be leading many to Him instead.

Now, like I’ve said many times, "I am thankful for the roll the Catholic Church played in the formulation of the word of God into one book, the bible.

And because of that, I can enjoy the fruits of it to a deeper level.

My quest to know God was not limited to just going to the mass, becoming an altar boy, having my feet washed and kissed by a priest, but in getting deeper into the mind of God as a hearts desire, driven with a passion for God.

I found the deeper things outside the church, by trial and error, but not ever having lost my passion for God.

I have learned a lot, especially, how to deal with all other beliefs.

Were once, I believed that if a person rejected Christ, that person did not stand a chance of ever going to heaven and would burn in hell for the rest of eternity.

That eliminated a lot of religious beliefs and made mine as the only true one.

God opened my eyes to see how He see’s us all and like as Jesus saw as well.

I speak to you the same as I would speak to a Satanist, no difference.

What my hope would be, is that Godbe introduced in a loving way so that His love, His patience, His long-suffering towards them/us, would lead them to repentance, or meaning, in changing of their way of thinking to that of God’s way.

The church, being the believers, are a candle in the dark, of which those in the dark may be drawn to it for guidance.

There, at that point, is where you and I come in, to lead the way to Jesus, so that they to may light their candles and do the same.

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

Sad to say? No, happy to say, because if we all would think as Christ did about sinners, we’d be leading many to Him instead.

As you wish. You keep your story that you are happy that you can’t tell a polygamist that what he’s doing is wrong.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Now, like I’ve said many times, "I am thankful for the roll the Catholic Church played in the formulation of the word of God into one book, the bible.

I tip my hat to you for that, AJ.

But I think you ought to be intellectually honest and acknowledge what this actually means:

-that there is an infallible authority you submit to
-this infallible authority discerned the Truth without Scripture. God revealed this through Tradition.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s still Ice Cream is it not?

Again, a nonsequitor.

 

[PRmerger]

Now, I can go to, if I wanted to a church of similitude beliefs and worship God with them as well.

But my strength is not in the churches, but on my reliance on God directly, based on His word, His promises to me, to where I shall not want.

That’s similar to saying, “I can be with my family any time I want, 'cause I carry a photo of them always, and they’re always near to my heart”

vs

I am with my family when I am physically present to them. While it’s nice that I have a photo of them it’s not the same as eating with them, playing with them, hugging them…

 

[look3467]

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Serve the Lord any way you wish!

I tip my hat to you for that, AJ.

But I think you ought to be intellectually honest and acknowledge what this actually means:

-that there is an infallible authority you submit to
-this infallible authority discerned the Truth without Scripture. God revealed this through Tradition.

My honesty, is in Jesus, He alone is my sustenance, my redeemer, friend, partner, father, mother, brother, sister, all, and I have need of no other, since I have it all in Him.

The church, because it is human is fallible, but the believer in Jesus is not.

For Jesus holds us up as promised, and I trust that He will not fail me.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

That’s similar to saying, “I can be with my family any time I want, 'cause I carry a photo of them always, and they’re always near to my heart”

vs

I am with my family when I am physically present to them. While it’s nice that I have a photo of them it’s not the same as eating with them, playing with them, hugging them…

True!

But you see, Jesus is not physically with us, but His presence in spirit is!

So, a photo of His indwelling in me is sufficient for me to have spiritual communion with Him.

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

Serve the Lord any way you wish!

That, AJ, is a ridiculous statement and I am certain you know that.

You know that someone who “wishes” to serve the Lord by excluding women from church would be wrong.

You know that someone who “wishes” to serve the Lord by marrying their 14 yr old cousin would be wrong.

You know that someone who “wishes” to serve the Lord by performing abortions would be wrong.

Stop this nonsensical “you can do anything you like as long as you say you’re a Christian” madness.

 

[PRmerger]

True!

But you see, Jesus is not physically with us, but His presence in spirit is!

Yes, he is not physically present in your church. Truer but sadder words have not been said here.

So, a photo of His indwelling in me is sufficient for me to have spiritual communion with Him.

Yes. You are limited to looking at a photo of your Beloved.

Catholics have the most sublime, intimate Union there is–the One Flesh Union.

Again, I am certain you see where you have taken yourself:
-your paradigm makes “He’s with me in Spirit” the best you have
-Catholicism has the Eucharist.

You don’t want that for yourself? You’re ok with looking at a photo of your spouse?

 

[PRmerger]

The church, because it is human is fallible, but the believer in Jesus is not.

Do you see what you’ve just said? The church, which consists of believers, is fallible, but believers are not?

So is this church of believers fallible or infallible? I am

 

[mackbrislawn]

People who can’t read can get the Bible on DVD or have someone read it to them.

I think the above is an important statement: having someone read it to them is, historically, the primary way most people would come to know scripture.

Throughout history, before Jesus and after Him, most people could not read, and not many families would have a copies of scriptures for themselves. What was the solution to this problem? If you could not read, or if you didn’t have your own scriptures, you would belong to a group that did have a copies of the various scriptures and they would gather together every week to have scripture read to them.

Note that when you are in a group hearing scripture read, you are in a group. That is, the persons in front of you, those beside you, and those behind, are hearing the same scripture at the same time. The message of scripture is coming to everyone collectively, in the context of the group. The gathering will have the same cultural assumptions and knowledge, providing the correct context for understanding what they are hearing.

I think this is important because it is unlike the person reading a Gideon bible in the isolation of his motel room–a person ignorant of the context in which the scriptures came to be. He has no group nor context to provide a corrective for his misunderstandings. And misunderstandings there are bound to be. Peter asserts this: “There are things in the writings of our brother Paul that are difficult to understand, that the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the scriptures.”

This is a serious warning. Scripture is specific in telling us that if we are ignorant, we can indeed read scripture to our destruction. How do we avoid being ignorant? By belonging to the group, the people of God, to begin with. By belonging to the Church.

First comes God, then His people, then Tradition, then Scripture. They all belong together. So, we see, scripture is never sola.