Sola Scriptura questions

[mackbrislawn]

Let’s see if I can put it in another way, our differences:
Let’s say I committed a crime, say stole 100,000 dollars. Went to prison.
Let’s say there was this fellow who said to me, look, I’ll paid the price for you to get free!
And I would say, how? He would tell me that He, Himself would substitute Himself for me, take my place in prison.
If I accepted His offer, I would then go free.

In the exchange, there was no requirement other than to accept the offer.

I have never been too comfortable with this comparison.

Suppose it hadn’t been 100,000 dollars, but something worse, you had committed a murder. Would a judge allow someone else to step forward and go to the electric chair instead of you? No. A judge wouldn’t allow that because it would not be justice. What does that say about God?

What do you think?

 

[look3467]

That, AJ, is a ridiculous statement and I am certain you know that.

You know that someone who “wishes” to serve the Lord by excluding women from church would be wrong.

You know that someone who “wishes” to serve the Lord by marrying their 14 yr old cousin would be wrong.

You know that someone who “wishes” to serve the Lord by performing abortions would be wrong.

Stop this nonsensical “you can do anything you like as long as you say you’re a Christian” madness.

There is a right way to serve the Lord? And which way may that be? Your way, my way or their way?

Serving, is work being done based on one’s beliefs.

One may want to serve the Lord on Saturday’s verses Sunday’s.
Another may want to confess their sins to a priest.
Another may want to give 10% of their income to the church.
Another may want to preach in the streets.
Another may want to have more than one wife.

You see, there is no right way, only the way the belief system is.

Whatever belief system one espouses, to that person, is the right way.

So if we then place all the responsibility of worshiping God to the heart, then and only then is it the the right way to serve God.

Why? The heart… the bible says: Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

God looks at the heart: Luk 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

If the inside, the heart, if God dwells not, then the reflection seen on the outside can be anything other than what God wants.

All beliefs have what they think and believe to be the right way. Some are sincere, honest and given whole-heartily to it, and then there are those who have alternative motives.

The alternative motive would be like the Pharisee.

There are all kinds of issues that the church (Each individual believer) must address at some point in their spiritual walk.

But that is not to say that God is oblivious to their motives or intents.

God is very much aware of the intents of the individual heart.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Do you see what you’ve just said? The church, which consists of believers, is fallible, but believers are not?

So is this church of believers fallible or infallible? I am

Again, the definition of the word church comes into question.

The church is the believer in Christ Jesus period.
Those that let Jesus enter their hearts and become re-born are going to be led by the spirit of God to good works.

And when a person becomes born again, they are sealed by the Holy Spirit for eternity.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

If you are sealed then, can you become infaliable? Of course not, for the promise would be made void if it did.

Now, as for the church physical, meaning the organization, that my friend, is fallible.

Why? Because the church is run by human beings who may or may not have God’s best interest in their hearts, and go about to do their own thing, bring shame to the organization.

That goes for any earthly organization.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

I have never been too comfortable with this comparison.

Suppose it hadn’t been 100,000 dollars, but something worse, you had committed a murder. Would a judge allow someone else to step forward and go to the electric chair instead of you? No. A judge wouldn’t allow that because it would not be justice. What does that say about God?

What do you think?

The point was not in the details but in the exchange of one to another.

In other words, the Lord Jesus traded places with you and I in order to take away our curse of eternal separation by setting us free from it.

The details are that He took every conceivable sin imaginable of mankind and nailed it to the cross for us, to the point where there is no sin that can not be forgive us.

What mankind thinks is an injustice, is God’s justice.

God saves whom He wants to our better understanding.

Blessings, AJ

 

[gtrenewed]

The Apostles taught that Baptism replaced circumcision as the intiiation rite into the New Covenant. Do you think that the infants in the OT had to demonstrate some action of faith prior to being included, or were they included on the basis of their parents faith?

In the new covenant, the initiation is faith. We believe therefore we are Christian and then we are baptised. Baptism looks back on what Christ accomplished and is contrasted with circumcision to show a spiritual new covenant vs a physical old covenant.

If it is free, how come the infant can’t qualify for it because they cannot earn it by an act of faith?

The faith is a free gift, it is not earned, but it comes from believing the Gospel, something outside the realm of an infant.

So, you think those that were Baptized on Pentecost were already disciples?

Upon believing faith they were new disciples.

I can see your point, but it comes instead from an understanding of the nature of original sin. The Apostles taught that we are separated from God when we are born into this fallen world. This is what is known as Original Sin.

Jesus taught that those who do not believe “are condemned already”. This is because, until we are placed in right relationship with God by grace, we are separated from Him by sin. All sinned in Adam - this is not a statement of personal sin, but of original sin.

OK but the blood of Christ, not water, washes away our original and personal sins.

We do entrust the non-baptised to the mercy of God, but to say “the mercy of God covers children to an age” is not a bibliical concept. This is a tradition of man that emerged after the Reformation to deny the vailidy of infant baptism. The mercy of God does not contradict the justice of God, and all those who are not hidden with Christ in God are “condemned already”.

It is very biblical because scripture is clear that we need believing faith to be born again not water.

If the “grace of God covers all people until they come to faith”, then there would be no reason for the death of Christ.

Why would you make this ridiculous statement! It is faith in the life, death and resurrection of Christ that brings about new life. God sees the beginning and end of all things and knows who comes to faith, so naturally, His grace covers us until that point.

 

[guanophore]

In the new covenant, the initiation is faith. We believe therefore we are Christian and then we are baptised. Baptism looks back on what Christ accomplished and is contrasted with circumcision to show a spiritual new covenant vs a physical old covenant.

It is true that faith is part of Christian initiation. Jesus was clear when He said “he who beleives and is baptized will be saved”. However, just as God accepted the faith of parents in the OT, so does He in the NT. Children are brought into the Kingdom on the basis of their parents faith, until they are old enough to make their own profession of faith.

Yes, baptism is a symbolic enactment of what Christ Accomplished on the cross. It is not contrasted with circumcision, though, but compared. They are both an initiation into the Covenant. Baptism is the circumcision made without hands (accomplised by the HS). It is the regenerating work of the HS that causes us to be born again.

The faith is a free gift, it is not earned, but it comes from believing the Gospel, something outside the realm of an infant.

Yes, the gift of God is free (grace) and cannot be earned. We really don’t know if the infant is capable of faith, or not. But just as the believing Jews brought their children to God, we bring them to God in baptism because this is what the Apostles commanded and practiced.

Upon believing faith they were new disciples.

The Catholic Church has always taught that adults must make a profession of faith before baptism can be offered.

OK but the blood of Christ, not water, washes away our original and personal sins.

Yes, the blood of Christ washes away our sins. That cleansing is applied to us in baptism, as we are joined with HIm in His death and burial, and raised with Him to newness of life. This is why baptism is called “the washing of regeneration”.

It is very biblical because scripture is clear that we need believing faith to be born again not water.

Adults do need to make a profession of faith before being given the bath of regeneration, just as they did at Pentecost. But, the promise of Pentecost is “to you and your children”, so this washing away of sins is not withheld from children.

I was just reading on another thread how the early Church argued about whether the Church should observe the 8 days of Jewish practice, or baptize them immediately. They would not have been having this arguement if they were not baptizing infants! I notice no one ever advocated NOT baptizing infants until the Modern American Evangelical movement.

Why would you make this ridiculous statement! It is faith in the life, death and resurrection of Christ that brings about new life. God sees the beginning and end of all things and knows who comes to faith, so naturally, His grace covers us until that point.

It is not a ridiculous statement, gt. It is the teaching of Jesus. God’s grace draws everyone, but not everyone chooses to respond. Those who do not respond to His grace, die in their sins.

 

[mackbrislawn]

OK but the blood of Christ, not water, washes away our original and personal sins.

It is very biblical because scripture is clear that we need believing faith to be born again not water.

It is because of the blood of Christ that the baptismal waters have been given the power to wash away our sins. Baptism is simply the way Jesus has set it up by which we have a physical sign to go along with the spiritual. “Baptism now saves us, not the removal of dirt from the body, but an appeal to God for a clear conscience.”

Ordinarily, when we go into the water it is to clean our bodies. Water has that power naturally. But when we go in to the waters of baptism, we are not doing it to remove the dirt from our body, but to clean our conscience. God has given it that power. We are actually making a prayer to God to remove the dirt from our conscience. Baptism is a prayer, and a prayer is an appeal to God. The sinner’s prayer is good, and one can say it if one wishes, but the prayer Jesus wants is the prayer of the waters of baptism. And how to we know the appeal of baptism will be answered? Scripture goes on to say: “Because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

 

[gtrenewed]

It is not a ridiculous statement, gt. It is the teaching of Jesus. God’s grace draws everyone, but not everyone chooses to respond. Those who do not respond to His grace, die in their sins.

Of course but my point was we are all covered by grace from conception until we die. At the point of adult death we must be covered by Jesus to have eternal life.

In trying to refute my point you said something ridiculous, look at your post.

Scripture says that God rains on the just and the unjust. The grace of God, for He wills that all should repent and come to the knowledge of God.

 

[guanophore]

Of course but my point was we are all covered by grace from conception until we die. At the point of adult death we must be covered by Jesus to have eternal life.

No, gt. Only those who are in right relationship with God are “covered by grace”. Everyone else is dead in their sins.

In trying to refute my point you said something ridiculous, look at your post.

I am sure it seems ridiculous to you, gt, but the logical conclusion to the idea that children do not need baptism because they are “covered with grace” nullifies the sacrifice of Christ. If we were not dead in our sins, then Jesus would have no need to shed His blood to purchase us from slavery and death.

Scripture says that God rains on the just and the unjust. The grace of God, for He wills that all should repent and come to the knowledge of God.

Yes, the is what the Latin Catholics call prevenient, or drawing grace. God calls everyone to repent. But He does this because without repentance, people will die in their sins. If there is no sin separating us from God, then Jesus died for nothing.

 

[gtrenewed]

It is because of the blood of Christ that the baptismal waters have been given the power to wash away our sins. Baptism is simply the way Jesus has set it up by which we have a physical sign to go along with the spiritual. “Baptism now saves us, not the removal of dirt from the body, but an appeal to God for a clear conscience.”

Ordinarily, when we go into the water it is to clean our bodies. Water has that power naturally. But when we go in to the waters of baptism, we are not doing it to remove the dirt from our body, but to clean our conscience. God has given it that power. We are actually making a prayer to God to remove the dirt from our conscience. Baptism is a prayer, and a prayer is an appeal to God. The sinner’s prayer is good, and one can say it if one wishes, but the prayer Jesus wants is the prayer of the waters of baptism. And how to we know the appeal of baptism will be answered? Scripture goes on to say: “Because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

It is not the sinners prayer nor water that saves us. Peter says that we are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ which is appropiated by faith and that we are born again through the living and enduring word of God which was preached and can be found in Scripture.

You are not rightly understanding scripture, Peter is not referring to a bath but he is referring to Jewish ceremonial washings. Also, there are many types of prayer such as thanksgiving or worshipful prayer. Not all prayer is an appeal.

When Peter says that baptism saves he is corresponding that to the ark bringing eight souls to safety; however, Jesus also went to the disobedient spirits in prison and preached the Gospel and gave them the opportunity to accept or reject Him. Those that accepted were saved without baptism since they were spirits. Also, the repentant thief on the cross was not baptized but was brought safely into paradise by faith.

Being in Jesus saves and we are in Jesus by faith. The public act of baptism acknowledges that we know, our conscience, that Jesus will bring us through to the safety of eternal life. It starts our discipleship but we are already saved.

Baptism is a public affirmation that we do to identify in likeness with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. As Paul writes, it is the free gift of faith to accept that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures that is our salvation.

The OT was physically based - the NT is spiritually based.

 

[gtrenewed]

No, gt. Only those who are in right relationship with God are “covered by grace”. Everyone else is dead in their sins.

I am sure it seems ridiculous to you, gt, but the logical conclusion to the idea that children do not need baptism because they are “covered with grace” nullifies the sacrifice of Christ. If we were not dead in our sins, then Jesus would have no need to shed His blood to purchase us from slavery and death.

Yes, the is what the Latin Catholics call prevenient, or drawing grace. God calls everyone to repent. But He does this because without repentance, people will die in their sins. If there is no sin separating us from God, then Jesus died for nothing.

Did I see it clearly - you called it drawing grace! So why are you arguing with me?
Grace is grace no matter what adjective you give it. In one form or another everyone is covered by God’s grace. It seems you limit the grace of God.

It is true that those who have not accepted the Gospel grace by faith are dead in their sins but they are covered by grace in order to live until they decide.

I never said there is no sin. Your so-called logical conclusion that grace nullifies the death of Jesus is just silly - for by grace are you saved through faith.

Just as a special grace enabled Mary to conceive Jesus, a special grace covers infants, the aborted, and the miscarried.

 

[Cruxis117]

It is not the sinners prayer nor water that saves us. Peter says that we are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ which is appropiated by faith and that we are born again through the living and enduring word of God which was preached and can be found in Scripture.

You are not rightly understanding scripture, Peter is not referring to a bath but he is referring to Jewish ceremonial washings. Also, there are many types of prayer such as thanksgiving or worshipful prayer. Not all prayer is an appeal.

When Peter says that baptism saves he is corresponding that to the ark bringing eight souls to safety; however, Jesus also went to the disobedient spirits in prison and preached the Gospel and gave them the opportunity to accept or reject Him. Those that accepted were saved without baptism since they were spirits. Also, the repentant thief on the cross was not baptized but was brought safely into paradise by faith.

Being in Jesus saves and we are in Jesus by faith. The public act of baptism acknowledges that we know, our conscience, that Jesus will bring us through to the safety of eternal life. It starts our discipleship but we are already saved.

Baptism is a public affirmation that we do to identify in likeness with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. As Paul writes, it is the free gift of faith to accept that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures that is our salvation.

The OT was physically based - the NT is spiritually based.

See, you’re only partially right. Salvation isn’t a one time thing. In the NT, Paul speaks of Salvation in Past, Present, and Future tenses. Redemption, however, is.Or else, why would Paul warn us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”?
John 3:5 affirms that Baptism isn’t just a symbol or public affirmation of our identity as a Christian. It literally does, through the power of Christ Jesus, save.

 

[guanophore]

It is not the sinners prayer nor water that saves us. Peter says that we are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ which is appropiated by faith and that we are born again through the living and enduring word of God which was preached and can be found in Scripture.

Yes, when our faith mixes with His grace, salvation results. That is why baptism now saves us.

Baptism is not a:thumbsup: bath of water to wash dirt from the Body, but a bath of regeneration that cleanses our conscience toward God. Now, if you think about it, you will agree that no one can present themselves to God in clear conscience apart from the cleansing blood of Christ. The reason baptism enables a person to present God with a clear conscience is because it is the means by which the blood of Christ is applied to the soul.

You are not rightly understanding scripture,

Dear one. Why should I accept your personal interpretation, rooted in a tradition of man that was invented 500 years ago, over and above that of the Apostles and their successors?

Peter is not referring to a bath but he is referring to Jewish ceremonial washings. Also, there are many types of prayer such as thanksgiving or worshipful prayer. Not all prayer is an appeal.

No, gt, he is not. He is talking about salvation THROUGH WATER! He compares baptism to the family of Noah, who was saved THROUGH WATER. The flood had nothing to do with Jewish ceremonial washings. Where did you get that?

Honestly, the lengths some people will go to deny the Catholic faith. It is astonishing.

When Peter says that baptism saves he is corresponding that to the ark bringing eight souls to safety; however, Jesus also went to the disobedient spirits in prison and preached the Gospel and gave them the opportunity to accept or reject Him. Those that accepted were saved without baptism since they were spirits.

No, gt, those that were in prison were saved the same way we all are - baptism. They were saved by grace, through faith. They are the progeny of those who were Baptized in the cloud, and in the Sea.

Also, the repentant thief on the cross was not baptized but was brought safely into paradise by faith.

We don’t know that he was not among those who were baptized, as the text said ALL went out (though all does not always mean all ). Jesus gave us baptism as the normative means of entering into His Kingdom. He is not bound by the Sacrament, we are.

Being in Jesus saves and we are in Jesus by faith. The public act of baptism acknowledges that we know, our conscience, that Jesus will bring us through to the safety of eternal life.

Unfortunatly this concept is not found anywhere in scripture.

It also denies history, since the Church was vigorously persecuted for the first 300 years. There was no such thing as “public” baptisms. If there were, all new believers would have been martryd.

 It starts our discipleship but we are already saved.

The Apostles taught that salvation is not completed in this life.

Baptism is a public affirmation that we do

This concept is not found anywhere in scripture. It is a tradition of men, that is used to deny the faith of the Apostles.

to identify in likeness with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

Scripture attests that baptism goes beyond “identify”, though this is part of it. In fact, Paul writes that we are buried with Him in Baptism, and raised with Him in the newness of life. Baptism mysteriously joins us to Christ in burial.

Calling it “likeness” “symbolic” and “ordinance” denies the Scriptures and the power of God.

The OT was physically based - the NT is spiritually based.

This concept is not found in Scripture either.

In fact, if the NT was not physically based, there would have been no need for Christ to come in the flesh.

 

[guanophore]

Did I see it clearly - you called it drawing grace! So why are you arguing with me?

Because you asserted that babies do not need baptism because they are “covered by grace”, which is not true.

 Grace is grace no matter what adjective you give it.  In one form or another everyone is covered by God's grace.  It seems you limit the grace of God.

God, in His sovereignty, has ordained that men may limit the grace of God for themselves.
When people choose to reject God’s purpose for themselves (salvation), He honors that choice.

GGrace ,must be mixed with faith in the heart of the believer in order for salvation to be achieved.

It is true that those who have not accepted the Gospel grace by faith are dead in their sins but they are covered by grace in order to live until they decide.

It sounds like you have fallen for the heresy of irresistable grace. You will not find any scriptures that support the statement you have made here. It was invented by Calvin 1600 years after the One Faith was committed to the Church.

I never said there is no sin.  Your so-called logical conclusion that grace nullifies the death of Jesus is just silly - for by grace are you saved through faith.

No, gt. It is not grace that nullifies His sacrifice. It is your theology that nullifies it. You have been given to believe that people God wants to save are “covered by His grace” until they decide to believe. This is not a biblical concept, and it is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.

 Just as a special grace enabled Mary to conceive Jesus, a special grace covers infants, the aborted, and the miscarried.

You will not find this concept anywhere in Scripture. It is an extrabiblical concept.

 

[mackbrislawn]

It is not the sinners prayer nor water that saves us. Peter says that we are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ which is appropiated by faith and that we are born again through the living and enduring word of God which was preached and can be found in Scripture.

You are not rightly understanding scripture, Peter is not referring to a bath but he is referring to Jewish ceremonial washings. Also, there are many types of prayer such as thanksgiving or worshipful prayer. Not all prayer is an appeal.

When Peter says that baptism saves he is corresponding that to the ark bringing eight souls to safety; however, Jesus also went to the disobedient spirits in prison and preached the Gospel and gave them the opportunity to accept or reject Him. Those that accepted were saved without baptism since they were spirits. Also, the repentant thief on the cross was not baptized but was brought safely into paradise by faith.

Being in Jesus saves and we are in Jesus by faith. The public act of baptism acknowledges that we know, our conscience, that Jesus will bring us through to the safety of eternal life. It starts our discipleship but we are already saved.

Baptism is a public affirmation that we do to identify in likeness with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. As Paul writes, it is the free gift of faith to accept that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures that is our salvation.

The OT was physically based - the NT is spiritually based.

It is all links in a chain. And each link can be said to save us. That is right, our faith does not save us, even though some say we are saved by faith alone. Jesus saves us, and the evidence that he can save us is His resurrection. Water does not save us, Jesus saves us. The sinner’s prayer does not save us, Jesus saves us. Yes, the Word of God saves us. And as you say, the saving blood of Christ has to be appropriated in some way. We come to faith, and then because we have faith in Jesus, we do as He wants us to do, be baptized which is the visible means established by God for our sins to be washed away and for us to become children of God. Jewish ceremonial washings? No, Peter was referring to Christian washings, and in this case water saves us in the same way water brought the ark to safety. The Jews knew about ceremonial washings and so Christian Jews are no way surprised for Christian washings to occur.

That not all prayer is appeal is irrelevant, because in this case it is appeal. Much prayer is, I pray thee.

Baptism doesn’t have to be public, and it is much more than an affirmation. The disobedient spirits in prison and the thief on the cross didn’t need to be baptized, Jesus dealt with them directly through means particular to them. And he hadn’t given to the command to baptize everyone yet.

Now, we get to the important part. “The OT is physically based, and the NT is spiritual.” This is really the crux of the matter. I realize that thinking this way forces one to a certain type of interpretation. Your exegesis must be the way it is if you believe their is no physical base in the NT at all. This is in actuality the major difference in our thinking, and until that is resolved, not much else can be decided.

 

[bjryman]

We must separate two issues:

1. Personal salvation is described in the bible as other posts have noted…period. Thus, if one had no other exposure to Christianity, the bible suffices as a SOLE SOURCE for personal salvation.
2. At the same time, Christ established his Church on Peter (…“upon this rock”, and all the rest). The reason for establishing the Church was to a.) provide ongoing interpretation and guidance regarding how to live our pathway to holiness and maximize the message of Jesus while we are on earth, and b.) administer the sacraments as outward expressions of Gods Grace.

The two go together. I for one would not want to stand before God at the day of my personal judgement and say that I squandered my personal salvation by being self centered around that one topic of Jesus’s message.

Since the Reformation resulted in physical splitting with item 2 above, the resultant churches and their hierarchy must minimize that topic. If they embrace it, they would recognize that returning to full communion is really what Jesus intends.

 

[gtrenewed]

It is all links in a chain. And each link can be said to save us. That is right, our faith does not save us,

John says, “These things I have written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,”

The Apostle’s teaching contradicts you.

We come to faith, and then because we have faith in Jesus, we do as He wants us to do, be baptized which is the visible means established by God for our sins to be washed away and for us to become children of God.

Baptism is a visible means of conveying, a seal, to our conscience what happened to our sins on the cross. The washing happened by the blood of Jesus and we receive that when we accept that by believing the Gospel which Paul teaches saves us.

Peter teaches, “Who His own self bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we being dead to sins should live in righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.”

Since we are born again, we seek to follow and obey Jesus; so of course, we seek to be baptized in water and in the Spirit and fire.

Paul teaches “For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

The Apostle’s teaching contradicts you.

Baptism doesn’t have to be public, and it is much more than an affirmation. The disobedient spirits in prison and the thief on the cross didn’t need to be baptized, Jesus dealt with them directly through means particular to them. And he hadn’t given to the command to baptize everyone yet.

It can’t be private for it takes at least two.

Paul teaches, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus”

This explains how the original disciples, the thief on the cross, the spirits in prison, and everyone else receives eternal life.

Now, we get to the important part. “The OT is physically based, and the NT is spiritual.” This is really the crux of the matter. I realize that thinking this way forces one to a certain type of interpretation. Your exegesis must be the way it is if you believe their is no physical base in the NT at all. This is in actuality the major difference in our thinking, and until that is resolved, not much else can be decided.

I commend you, at least it seems you have read my post and given some thought to your reply.

You misunderstand my contrast of OT and NT; however, you are right that in saying we differ in our thinking. While we carry out our discipleship in the physical yet Jesus says that the Father wants those who worship in spirit and truth. Jesus made this statement while talking with the woman at the well declaring that there will no longer be a place to worship the Father. The Old Covenant will be done away with, replaced by the new in Jesus’ body and blood.

The emphasis in the OT is where and what we do to worship God - physical.

The emphasis in the NT is our faith in what Jesus did to restore our place with God - spiritual since God is a spirit. Of course Jesus came in the physical flesh, and we live out our life physically while producing fruit of the spirit. However, Paul teaches “The just shall live by faith.”

I get this from the overall spirit of scripture. While some, maybe even you, see things you must do to please God; I see I already please God in Jesus Christ. While I am not perfect, my eternal life does not depend on my perfection. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. We are to approach Him as a little child - boldly approaching the throne of grace, as taught in Hebrews, to receive what we need. My sin no longer separates me from God, for past, present, and future sins are nailed to the cross. Only by denying the faith that bought me and blaspheming the Holy Spirit can I be lost once again. These are things that are very hard to do indeed and would take great maliciousness.

When you say not much else can be decided, what are you trying to decide?

I am sharing my thoughts on how scripture, which is the word of God, the apostles teaching, leads to eternal life by faith. It is enough because it is the word of God. If I see baptism as a spiritual seal but not water as a sin remover but as a pointer to Jesus the sin remover; that is in context with the spirit of scripture and not the letter of the law.

 

[guanophore]

John says, "These things I have written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,"

The Apostle’s teaching contradicts you.

We are saved by grace, through faith. Faith is the avenue through which grace flows into our souls.

Baptism is a visible means of conveying, a seal, to our conscience what happened to our sins on the cross. The washing happened by the blood of Jesus and we receive that when we accept that by believing the Gospel which Paul teaches saves us.

These things are true, but that is not all there is to baptism. The Apostles called it the 'bath of regeneration" because in it the HS circumcises our hearts without hands, and washes away our sins.

Peter teaches, "Who His own self bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we being dead to sins should live in righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed."

Since we are born again, we seek to follow and obey Jesus; so of course, we seek to be baptized in water and in the Spirit and fire.

This is what you have been taught, but it is not consistent with what the Apostles taught.

Paul teaches "For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

The Apostle’s teaching contradicts you.

No, it does not. All who believed the gospel through Paul’s preaching were immediately baptized. the Apostles never separated the profession of faith from the waters of baptism, or from the gift of the HS.

It can't be private for it takes at least two.

The point is that there is no Apostolic teaching that baptism is a “public confession” or a “public sign”. This is a modern evangelical innovation. In the early church, baptisms were done in secret, because the Church was persecuted. When the children of the Reformers separated from the Apostolic faith, the sacramental nature of baptism was rejected, and they placed a different meaning on it than the one contained in the Church Christ founded.

Paul teaches, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus”

He also taught that baptism is for the remission of sins, and made sure all the new converts were baptized, so that their sins could be washed away.

This explains how the original disciples, the thief on the cross, the spirits in prison, and everyone else receives eternal life.

You are certainly free to invent all the explanations your heart desires. God gifted you with an intellect and imagination. You don’t have to use them to receive His gospel. You are free to create your own.

While we carry out our discipleship in the physical yet Jesus says that the Father wants those who worship in spirit and truth. Jesus made this statement while talking with the woman at the well declaring that there will no longer be a place to worship the Father. The Old Covenant will be done away with, replaced by the new in Jesus’ body and blood.

That does not remove the physical nature of the covenant. On the contrary, Jesus left us sacraments to incorporate our faith into the physical realm.

The emphasis in the OT is where and what we do to worship God - physical.

The emphasis in the NT is our faith in what Jesus did to restore our place with God - spiritual since God is a spirit. Of course Jesus came in the physical flesh, and we live out our life physically while producing fruit of the spirit. However, Paul teaches “The just shall live by faith.”

You are making an erroneous assumption that living by faith does not have physical dimensions.

I get this from the overall spirit of scripture.

Actually, any “overall spirit” that contradicts what God has already revealed to the Church is not a good source of instruction.

 

[guanophore]

My sin no longer separates me from God, for past, present, and future sins are nailed to the cross.

This concept is another good example of a modern innovation, unknown to the Apostles. On the contrary, they taught that the nature of sin has not changed, and that sin still separates people from God “this side of the cross”.

Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of the world. Not everyone will have the penalty forgiven, though.

Only by denying the faith that bought me and blaspheming the Holy Spirit can I be lost once again.

That is what mortal sin is - pushing away the HS.

These are things that are very hard to do indeed and would take great maliciousness.

Not really. Humans are by nature drawn away from God, and our sin nature is malicious toward God. Whenever we yield to it, we squelch the life of the HS in us.

I am sharing my thoughts on how scripture, which is the word of God, the apostles teaching, leads to eternal life by faith. It is enough because it is the word of God.

One has to wonder why you are on CAF. If you have all that you need, why are you here posting on the threads?

If I see baptism as a spiritual seal but not water as a sin remover but as a pointer to Jesus the sin remover; that is in context with the spirit of scripture and not the letter of the law.

Both things are true, gt. We are sealed in baptism by the same HS that cleanses our conscience toward God. It is through baptism that we are washed in the blood of the lamb, and are united to Him in His death on the cross. This is why scripture says “do you know know that as many of you as were baptized have died to sin”?

 

[gtrenewed]

It sounds like you have fallen for the heresy of irresistable grace. You will not find any scriptures that support the statement you have made here. It was invented by Calvin 1600 years after the One Faith was committed to the Church.

Naw, you are confused. Calvin taught that God’s election lead to irresistable grace. Not what I am saying.

No, gt. It is not grace that nullifies His sacrifice. It is your theology that nullifies it. You have been given to believe that people God wants to save are “covered by His grace” until they decide to believe. This is not a biblical concept, and it is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Scripture teaches that God rains on the just and the unjust.

Since God loves and provides for all and His mercies are new every morning and He wills for all to be saved - by scripture I conclude that whosoever in the world have been given time to seek God and to repent of sins and to believe the Gospel. This sure sounds like God’s unmerited favor, which is grace, and mercy.

Without God’s grace and mercy, the world would collapse.

I can’t understand why you are having such a hard time grasping this?

You will not find this concept anywhere in Scripture. It is an extrabiblical concept.

“And they brought unto Him also infants, that He would touch them;…But Jesus said, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God.”

Oops, I found it in scripture.