Sola Scriptura questions

[jericho777]

Of course I believe you were Catholic.

You were just a very poorly catechized Catholic, as shown below (and in your previous posts.)

No, jericho. The question is where do we recite Scripture in the Mass?

And what does this mean? That Mary conceived Jesus while a perpetual virgin?

My bad I misunderstood the first question. Do you mean the Our Father?

That Mary was conceived without sin.

Honestly I probably had known this at one time but I’ve been gone 20+ years.

 

[jericho777]

Clearly this is not a literal “not one”. There are exceptions, of course!

Only Jesus and He is God.

 

[jericho777]

The Jews had no consensus on what was Scripture. Unless you can provide a citation for when they met and discerned what was considered to be inspired. Please cite a reference for place and date and provide the list that they concluded.

And even if they had, why would we submit to their authority?

Funny when you read a Jewish bible it’s the same as ours.

 

[jericho777]

Sola Scriptura is not in the bible.

Paul states in 2Tim 3:15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. The scriptures are suffecient for salvation. Notice he doesn’t say he should consult the church.

 

[jphilapy]

Paul states in 2Tim 3:15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. The scriptures are suffecient for salvation. Notice he doesn’t say he should consult the church.

Your logic is a contradiction. Paul wasn’t quoting scripture when he said that. Therefor that statement is coming from an authority outside of scripture. Which does not comply with the definition of sola scriptura as you agreed.

You have Paul contradicting himself by having him say something akin to:

‘Scripture is our only authority. Now accept my non scriptural command to follow scripture as your only authority’

Paul wasn’t practicing sola scriptura.

If the early christians were practicing sola scriptura, then they would tell Paul, ‘Hey, your instruction to us is not in scripture, therefore we are not bound to follow it.’ therefore making sola scriptura a self defeating principle

 

[onenow1]

onenow1,
The more important point of 2 Tim 3:15 is while what was revealed in the OT is sufficient for all faith, God by His grace has given us the NT revealing an even deeper understanding of His splendor and majesty.

2 Timothy 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to INSTRUCT you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is inspired by God and PROFITABLE for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for TRAINING in righteousness,

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good WORK.

Jericho, nowhere does it say sufficient !

Very true! John 21: 25 not all is recorded in scripture. Limited doesn’t mean insufficient. But all that is contained therein is sufficient for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
I believe SS works just fine where there is no need to make thing up because the bible doesn’t answer every question imaginable.

Indeed ! John 16: 12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Sounds like fiture truths are coming to His Church.

God Bless

 

[PRmerger]

Murder is in the bible, purgatory is not.

Purification is in the Bible. Embryonic stem cell research is not.

 

[PRmerger]

That Mary was conceived without sin.

Honestly I probably had known this at one time but I’ve been gone 20+ years.

Well, jericho, I appreciate your integrity. And your honesty.

The Immaculate Conception is the dogma that from the very moment of her existence, in her mother’s womb (traditionally known as St. Anne), Mary had no stain of sin.

Many uncatechized Catholics think it means that Mary conceived Jesus without intercourse. They’ll joke that if they’re pregnant “its another ‘immaculate conception’ 'cause I certainly couldn’t have gotten pregnant the normal way!” NOT. It has nothing to do with Mary not having sex.

But the fact that you don’t know this basic thing, and you don’t know where Scripture is proclaimed at Mass is a testament to this fact: you did not know your faith before you left it.

 

[PRmerger]

My bad I misunderstood the first question. Do you mean the Our Father?

No. I mean that the Mass is full of Scripture. Practically every utterance by the priest, or by the congregation, is from the Bible.

For example, do you remember saying this at Mass:
“Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.”
**
Now, read Matt 8:8**
[BIBLEDRB]Matt 8:8[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[PRmerger]

And, jericho, do you remember the priest saying this:
“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.”
**
Now, read 2 Cor 13:13**
[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor 13:13[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[PRmerger]

Finally, jericho, how about this?

Do you remember praying this:
“Glory to God in the highest and peace to his people on earth”

Now, read Luke 2:14
[BIBLEDRB]Luke 2:14[/BIBLEDRB]

and on and on it goes.

See, jericho? You knew not the faith in which you left.

Most likely not your fault. As I said, the Church did a dismal job in feeding its flock via catechesis.

 

[PRmerger]

Only Jesus and He is God.

So then it’s not correct to say that “all have sinned” is a literal all.

There are exceptions.

Although this verse in Romans does not say that there are exceptions.

It does not say “all have sinned except Jesus”, as you maintain.

Thus, if it’s not a literal “all”, (babies? have they sinned? those with Down syndrome? have they sinned?), then of course, there are exceptions.

 

[PRmerger]

Funny when you read a Jewish bible it’s the same as ours.

Ah. So you could not provide me with a source that says the Jews had a defined canon.

It’s the Catholic Church which determined the canon of Scripture that you use today (give or take 7 books).

It did not fall out of the sky directly from God.

God used the bishops of the Catholic Church to discern which of the over 400 ancient texts were theopneustos. And these bishops *were infallible *in determining this.

 

[PRmerger]

The scriptures are suffecient for salvation.

This is a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing, because you heard it from a pastor somewhere…for you have not read it in any of the pages of Scripture. No where does it say that Scripture is all you need to know God’s revelation.

 

[guanophore]

This is descriptive of the life style they were living not prescriptive.

Yes, I agree.

They were obviously living contrary to the instruction of God they had received.

Yes, I agree. This is how we see all those who have departed from the Catholic faith. There was One Faith that was delivered once for all to the one Church. Since that time, many have strayed away from the instruction of God that was received by the Church. This was not the intention of the Reformers, who only wanted a more pure church. Nor is it the intention of their spiritual descendants who have embraced Sola Scriptura, and now live just as those people did - doing what is right in their own eyes, since the authority appointed by Christ was rejected.

In 2Tim 3:16 Paul doesn’t say Timothy used “apostolic tradition” to find the meaning of scripture. In fact he just says Timothy’s knowledge only came from the scripture. No outside teaching source.

Jesus instructed His apostles in the meaning of the Scriptures. He taught them how to “rightly divide the word of truth”. He showed them how all of the Law and the Prophets pointed to Himself. This instruction, called the Divine Deposit of faith, is what was entrusted to Timothy, just as it was to all the bishops. The duty of the Bishops is to guard what has been entrusted to them. They are to teach it to faithful men who are able to instruct others also. This is the Apostolic Succession.

No one in the early Church read the Scriptures apart from the kerygma.

No, only God is infallible.

Infallibility is the gift of God that prevents humans from making errors. Any human is capable of an infallible act. When a person acts in obedience to God in the movement of His Spirit, they are infallible. For example, when Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, Jesus told Him “this was revealed to you by my Father”. He made an infallible proclamation. All the prophets do this when they confess the Word of God. This is part of the foundation of the Church. All the writers of the NT acted infallibly when they penned the Scriptures. The Church councils act infallibly when they make decisions from God and put them into practice, as we seen in the book of Acts at the council of Jerusalem.

Only 66 books in the canon. Even the Jews who authored those books have serious questions about their inspiration.

They used to, because they thought there were no Hebrew originals. They thought all the Scriptures must be originally written in Hebrew. However, with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, it became known that the Deuterocanonicals were penned in Hebrew. However, Jesus and the Apostles already knew these books were inspired, which is why they used them to teach, preach, and spread the gospel. When Paul and Peter refer to “the Scriptures”, they are referencing the Septuagint, which contained these books.

 

[guanophore]

How can the cc make eating meat on every friday a sin then change their mind to only during lent ?

All disobedience is sin. If our shepherds inform the Church that we are going to have a communal fast, then we all submit to them in reverent obedience. Those who refuse demostrate a rebellious heart.

God has given us the freedom to eat meat everyday we please. There is no authority to do otherwise.

Indeed He has given us that freedom. This is why sacrificing it honors Him. You are right that this is an issue about authority. You deny that Jesus gave His authority to His Apostles, and they to their successors. Only by convincing yourself that the authority does not exist can you continue to rebel against it with a clear conscience.

It is a man made rule. It is not binding on the conciences of men.

Yes, it is a man made rule, but we are to obey all man made rules from all of those which God has placed over us (unless they contradict His commandments, which fasting does not).

I hear a tone of rebellion against authority in your post. “I don’t have to!”. Yes, you are right, you dont’ have to. You can choose not to participate in the communal fast. You can rebel against those whom God has placed over the care of your soul.

Your response also contradicts Scripture, which clearly shows that we are to obey all worldy rulers, even those who are corrupt, so long as doing so does not contradict the commandments of God. All authority comes from God, and the faithful are bound to obey the man made rules also. This is what it means to render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars.

God has given us the freedom to eat meat everyday we please. There is no authority to do otherwise. It is a man made rule. It is not binding on the conciences of men.

jericho777;7183723:

But my point was they keep changing the rules about it.

Yes indeed. Human customs change, and the rules around how we practice our faith in the world around us change. Doctrine does not change.

The Council of Jerusalem made a binding rule on all the faithful not to drink blood. They did this because such activity was scandalous to the Jews. It was not a sin for them, since all food that is blessed is to be received with gratitude. But they did not want to give scandal to the Jewish Christians. Similarly, they were instructed not to eat meat if they were told by a concerned brother that it had been offered to an idol.

We do not practice these rules anymore, because they don’t apply in our modern times. We practice different rules.

 

[guanophore]

That is your perogative as a parent. I hope it would not be in an arbitrary manner.

Yes, just as it is the perogative of those who have become our parents through the gospel. They do not do this in an arbitrary manner, either.

To make something sin that is a freedom granted by God is a horrible misuse of a position of power.

If this is true, then the Apostles were abusing their power in making rules for the Church. Paul abused his power when he told them never to let a woman teach or preach in the Church, and when he said it was shameful for a woman to cut her hair. The Council of Jerusalem abused their power by tellling to believers to abstain from blood.

  There are plenty of real sins people need to avoid without adding something foolish.

You are making an arrogant judgement that this fasting discipline is “foolish”. Since you don’t know the ancient ways around fasting or communal preparation for the celebration of the resurrection, you are making a criticism of something about which you are ignorant. Calling 2000 year old spiritual disciplines and practices “foolish” when you know nothing about them really says more about you than it does about those who practice such devotions.

The Apostle Paul certainly believed and affirmed there was enough scripture present to sufficiently lead believers in the way of faith and salvation. 2Tim 3:15-17 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Yes indeed. And those who are led by Scripture to Christ then become members of His One Body, the Church. He left His Apostles to shepherd that Church, and they commissioned their successors with that same responsibility. If there was no need for this Church, why did He create it?

I see the Holy Spirit working in many Christians despite religious affiliation. I do not believe in the infallibility of any human group or organization. Only God is infallible despite what anyone may claim.

Yes, the HS does work in every human heart, drawing them all to His One Body, the Church.

You are right that there is no human group or organization that is infallible. Fortunately for us, the Church is not a human group, but a divine one. Jesus is the Cornerstone, and He is the builder. The HS is the soul of the Church. These divine elements are what make the Church infallible, not the human persons attached to her. To deny these divine elements of the Church is to reject the Scriptures, and the Teaching of the Apostles.

 

[pablope]

In Sola Scriptura churches, how can the illiterate and mentally or physically disabled come to be incorporated into the Body of Christ? If they can’t develop a personal relationship with Christ through reading the Bible, or they don’t understand the Bible how do they become Christian or grow in faith?

And what does a person do if he lacks confidence in his personal understanding of the Bible? If people tell him all he needs is the Bible, and he reads it but it makes no sense to him?

Monica…

After going through all the responses…I think your dilemna can be summed up in one question: Who will teach the truth? And what will be the source of the TRUTH?

So, answer this question, without using any sources…with what comes to your mind when answering this question:

WHAT IS PILLAR AND BULWARK OF TRUTH?

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by jericho777
The scriptures are suffecient for salvation.

Where does Jesus (GOD) teach the above man-made tradition?

 

[PRmerger]

Honestly I probably had known this at one time but I’ve been gone 20+ years.

I am curious, jericho, about your position regarding being an ex-Catholic and your understanding of the faith you left. It seems that in the statement above you are saying you have forgotten much of what you left behind.

Below, in this comment you made, it appears that you are claiming that you have now studied the Catholic faith and understand it?

Not that I had any idea about anything outside the cc. But I do now.

Which is your POV? Knowledgable ex-Catholic, or ex-Catholic who’s been out of the faith for 20 years?