Sola Scriptura questions

[guanophore]

They can be saved like anyone else into the Body of Christ. If they have a mental impairment, **the Bible does not specifically address that issue. ** Our church has several adult with disabilities.
We do not believe that literacy is required for being a Christian. I am curious why you believe that?

This is why Jesus founded a church, instead of a bookstore. He knew that there would always be issues that were not addressed in the Holy Scripture.

Catholics don’t believe that, the question was being posed because we are not Sola Scritpurists. People were practicing Catholics for centuries before there was a Bible, and for millenia and a half before the printing press was invented by a Catholic, who printed the first Bible. The Church founded by Christ is not dependent upon the Bible.

 

[guanophore]

By the same token that a baby can not sin because the baby has no knowledge of good and evil.

In the book of Genesis it states that “the day” knowledge is ingested and acted upon, separation between that soul and God begins.

Ref: Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

A baby, and the mentally impaired are innocent of any sin until the day they eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, should that be, their spiritual eyes are not opened thus not able to discern (judge) between good and evil.

We will agree that they are not culpable for personal sin, but all of us are “born in Adam” and come into this world separated from God by that sin. “All sinned in Adam” does not refer to personal sin, but to original sin. Although they are not culpable for not having their own knowledge, they are still dead in sin.

But for those of us who are able and our eyes opened after gaining knowledge of good and evil, become separated spiritually, meaning dead spiritually, and must needs to have a rebirth from a dead state.

This is also true for those who do not have the knowledge.

The bible is our guide to Christ the center of life, the beginning of life, and the bible states that all is required is simple faith, not a PHD in the bible’s understandings.

And what does it say one should do when one comes to that Center of Life?

Ref: Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Do you remember what converts did after they were saved?

Now that, is having a relationship with Christ when God’s grace to us is realized and accepted.

The Apostles taught that this was accomplished in Baptism.

 

[guanophore]

The belief is that scripture is sufficient for teaching, building up, etc. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t studying that goes along with that scripture (language, history, context of the time period, etc). So yes, in a way, “all you need is the Bible” is an expression that kinda does disservice to the theology of the supremacy of scripture.

Yes, and a disservice to the Scripture itself, which does not claim to be “sufficient” for these things but “profitable”. In the hands of a trained and authorized teacher, it is profitable for the building up of the faithful. But in the hands of those who have only little discipleship,the erroneous teachings that come out can cause a whole community to run amok. I was just listening to a program about David Koresh yesterday, case in point.

 

[guanophore]

scripture is the basis for any knowledge of who God is.

It is a very good thing that this statement is not true. If it were true, then we would have no information at all about how Abraham came to know God, nor of the millennia that transpired between Adam and Eve, all the way through Moses. All this knowledge about God, from the Garden of Eden up till Moses wrote was kept by Sacred Tradition.

In the same way, if this were true, we would have no direct experience of Christ, as He is the image of God,a nd we see God through Him. Of course, this was true before any of the NT was written also.

It seems foolish to think that God suddenly became incapable of preserving His Word just because it was not written.

On the contrary, the basis for any knowledge about who God is comes from His revelation of Himself to man. Some of this is written, some is not.

Up and until Abraham, there was no knowledge about the true character of God.

This statement also contradicts the Scriptures, which make it plain that Adam adn Eve knew God personally, and spoke with Him. It also contradicts the passages that make it plain that God created mankind with an intuitive knowledge of Himself, and the desire to seek Him.

That is evident by the many images of the imagined gods.

What is evidenced is that man has an inner desire to seek after God, and to find Him.

They had an inkling of something greater than themselves but could never pin point anything because there was simply no knowledge of or any written source for reference.

This is absurd. God was revealing Himself to humanity through His creation long before writing was invented!

So, we have the Old Testament, not written in the days of old,(At the actual event time) but at a particular time as mankind was inspired by the Spirit of God to write.

Finally, a true statement, but one that also contradicts what you previously stated about the written word being the only source.

Being a reference to the nature of who or what God was, was the word written and by which set a standard for the world to see, via those to whom that word was entrusted to.

Indeed the Law, as revealed to Moses, was a standard and a way of revealing Himself to the world. the Law was the tutor, until they came to Christ.

So, naturally, the bible as compiled by those whom God inspired, gather together, gave responsibility to, and the ones inspired to preach, teach, instruct and help guide others to His Son to be the central Key reason for all of it.

Those would be Catholics.

No bible no church! For every belief has its book, be it the bible, the new world translation, the Koran, the gold tablets etc.

It is a good thing this is not true either, or the Church would never have survived to the fourth century to produce the bible.

God is not, in my view, ignorant of all that is going on with the differing belief systems that He cannot save.

I agree, but He has provided salvation through his One Church, which He authorized to do this work.

Scripture alone is an introduction, the church is your encouragement, and finally, you are ultimately responsible for your own spiritual growth.

I agree that we all have the responsibility to study to show ourselves approved. But God has appointed the Church to feed and guide us. Specifically, He charged Peter with the duty to feed and care for the sheep, a duty that has been continually passed to his succesors up to the present day.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Did you think the Catholic Church believed her authority came from “itself”?

Jesus was given “all authority in heaven and on earth”. With it, He authorized those He had chosen and grafted into Himself as the foundation stones of the Church to administrate His Church. Any authority the Church has comes not from herself, but from God, who is the Source of all authority.

The Church was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. In the 382 years prior to the close of the canon, the system of authority put in place by Christ functioned to spread the gospel, and to write, promulgate, and eventually canonize the Scriptures. The Bible is the product of the Church, not the other way around.

The reason that Catholics are not “bible christians” or “people of the book” is because a book cannot wield authority. Authority requires characteristics that books do not have, however Holy, such as discernment, decision making (will) and the ability to take responsibility for one’s actions. Ulitmately, all those who wish to force the Holy Scriptures into a role they were never intended to have become their own authority, or submit themselves to authorities that were not appointed by Christ.

I don’t want to start a conversation about church authority in a thread about sola scriptura. If you want, you can take it to PM, and I’d be more than happy to continue.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t want to start a conversation about church authority in a thread about sola scriptura. If you want, you can take it to PM, and I’d be more than happy to continue.

You didn’t start it. Whenever the topic of SS comes up, it always ends up on authority. That is because SS is founded upon the notion that the scripture is the final “authority”, while Jesus gave this to the Church.

If you want, you can take it to PM, and I’d be more than happy to continue.

No, I don’t think that would be appropriate. If you are going to make erroneous statements on the public forum, than the public forum is where the response needs to go. You made this false statement:

The only question lies in where that church takes its authority - from the church itself, or from the scriptures.

And I noticed that you did not have any reply to my rebuttal.

Hit and run won’t serve you well here, Wolffie.

 

[Dokimas]

You didn’t start it. Whenever the topic of SS comes up, it always ends up on authority. That is because SS is founded upon the notion that the scripture is the final “authority”, while Jesus gave this to the Church.

No, I don’t think that would be appropriate. If you are going to make erroneous statements on the public forum, than the public forum is where the response needs to go. You made this false statement:

And I noticed that you did not have any reply to my rebuttal.

Hit and run won’t serve you well here, Wolffie.

[SIGN]Originally Posted by Byzantine_Wolf
The only question lies in where that church takes its authority - from the church itself, or from the scriptures.[/SIGN]

How do you know Jesus gave the church the final authority?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

You didn’t start it. Whenever the topic of SS comes up, it always ends up on authority. That is because SS is founded upon the notion that the scripture is the final “authority”, while Jesus gave this to the Church.

No, I don’t think that would be appropriate. If you are going to make erroneous statements on the public forum, than the public forum is where the response needs to go. You made this false statement:

And I noticed that you did not have any reply to my rebuttal.

Hit and run won’t serve you well here, Wolffie.

Wow, let’s see here…bold claims (“if you are going to make erroneous statements”) and personal jabs with nicknames (“Wolffie”). Sorry, sir, but I debate with people on my maturity level.

Welcome to my ignore list, and have a good day. (and I’m unsubscribing to this thread)

 

[guanophore]

[SIGN]Originally Posted by Byzantine_Wolf
The only question lies in where that church takes its authority - from the church itself, or from the scriptures.[/SIGN]

How do you know Jesus gave the church the final authority?

This is a good question, and most appropriate in the light of what has been advanced, for that authority is documented in the Holy Scriptures.

However, the record in the scriptures reflects the fact that preceeded them of the Apostolic Succession.

 

[look3467]

The reason that Catholics are not “bible christians” or “people of the book” is because a book cannot wield authority. Authority requires characteristics that books do not have, however Holy, such as discernment, decision making (will) and the ability to take responsibility for one’s actions. Ulitmately, all those who wish to force the Holy Scriptures into a role they were never intended to have become their own authority, or submit themselves to authorities that were not appointed by Christ.

…“because a book cannot wield authority”… Please read: Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood
out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

This is our authority, to reign as kings and priest on the earth, as we are redeemed and have become new creatures who no longer are governed by the things of the world, as in the old Adam, but in the new Adam, the spiritual Adam of which we are the embodiment of His Church inwardly.

As Jesus is of a Jewish descent does in no way give authority to the Jewish people over the old Testament writings, but were used of God in the mission of Christ.

The Catholic Church likewise was used by God to compile into one book the writings of those inspired by God to write, and in no way has any authority over the word of God but God Himself.

You see, “the chosen” people of God, the Jews were “cut off” and still are to this day from the salvation which is in Jesus Christ.

It had to be that way, otherwise, the rest of the world would have been without hope.

Had the Catholic Church kept the bible to itself, as was originally proposed, the world would not have benefited from it.

The last High priest sits at the right Hand of God of whose kings and priest we are.

Are you able to reach God directly? And how is it that you can? And by whose authority are ye able to reach God directly?

Read: Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Do not pass goal, but go directly to the Father via Jesus when you cry out to Him.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

To whose throne?

…“authorities that were not appointed by Christ”… Read:2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

“Old thing” read: Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The Jews have the Old that as of today has not vanished from their eyes and hearts have no longer any authority over the old but must attain the new.

Similarly, the Catholic Church has no authority over Gods word, for the word of God has been taken out of the hands of the church and spread all over the world as it’s own authority.

The Spirit of God is not limited to any one particular temple, place of worship or religious and or non religious systems.

Therefore His word, is it’s own authority.

A child needs its parents for guidance as like any aspiring spiritual person, yet after that child grows up will become its own person.

Similarly, a spiritual person grows in the faith by the word as God gives revelation based on life’s trials and tribulations.

My views are not against any established religious system, but simply that the word of God is sufficient to lead anyone to God.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

We will agree that they are not culpable for personal sin, but all of us are “born in Adam” and come into this world separated from God by that sin. “All sinned in Adam” does not refer to personal sin, but to original sin. Although they are not culpable for not having their own knowledge, they are still dead in sin.

At what point did Adam and Eve supposedly sin? Before or after the gaining of knowledge?

What if, they had not gained knowledge of good and evil, what then, would they be individuals or robots?

A baby is as a robot until it gains knowledge to discern between good and evil, of in which time, will become an individual, as like Adam and Eve after eating of knowledge of the tree.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
* The bible is our guide to Christ the center of life, the beginning of life, and the bible states that all is required is simple faith, not a PHD in the bible’s understandings.*

And what does it say one should do when one comes to that Center of Life?

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

…“ye shall find rest unto your souls”… Rest to our souls is:Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

You see, your labors to gain heaven has been taken from you and in return, rest from them has been given to Jesus.

In Jesus then, is where you shall rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
* Ref: Act 26:18 To open their eyes*, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Do you remember what converts did after they were saved?

Quote:

Became followers, as children, for the word was all new to them.

The Apostles taught that this was accomplished in Baptism.

Have no argument there.

Blessings, AJ

 

[guanophore]

Wow, let’s see here…bold claims (“if you are going to make erroneous statements”) and personal jabs with nicknames (“Wolffie”). Sorry, sir, but I debate with people on my maturity level.

Welcome to my ignore list, and have a good day. (and I’m unsubscribing to this thread)

Well, for the sake of anyone reading, I will apologize if I came across with a personal jab. I thought you chose your screen name as a nickname. Is Hieronymus better?

Your statement is erroneous.

The Church does not get her authority from herself, but from God. Without God, and the authority of Christ, there would be no church at all. The authority of the Church is found in the Keys, given to Peter, and in the power to bind and loose. These come from Jesus.

I apologize if I gave any offense, as it was not my intention. Sometimes I get a little overboard when I am sparring.

 

[look3467]

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
* scripture is the basis for any knowledge of who God is.*

It is a very good thing that this statement is not true. If it were true, then we would have no information at all about how Abraham came to know God, nor of the millennia that transpired between Adam and Eve, all the way through Moses. All this knowledge about God, from the Garden of Eden up till Moses wrote was kept by Sacred Tradition.>>>guanophore

God has always been in the conscience of mankind, but not revealed to who He was until Abraham.

There was a tradition prior to Abraham? Were the prophets prior to or after Abraham?

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

  Quote:
                                                                  Originally Posted by **look3467**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7026152#post7026152)                 
             *  That is evident by the many images of the imagined gods.*

What is evidenced is that man has an inner desire to seek after God, and to find Him.>>>guanophore

Are we not saying the same thing? Until Abraham, did the revelation of who God is begun.

Blessings, AJ

 

[guanophore]

God has always been in the conscience of mankind, but not revealed to who He was until Abraham.

So, who was that having dialogue with Adam and Eve in the Garden? Who confronted them about their sin?

How did Cain know what kind of sacrifice God wanted?

However, I will stipulate that God made a covenant with Abraham, which he had not done before.

There was a tradition prior to Abraham?
Blessings, AJ

Yes, how did you think Moses got the material for the Genesis stories? How did Moses know what to write about the children of Adam and Eve, and the flood, etc?

 

[look3467]

This is absurd. God was revealing Himself to humanity through His creation long before writing was invented!>>>guanophore

How?

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
* So, naturally, the bible as compiled by those whom God inspired, gather together, gave responsibility to, and the ones inspired to preach, teach, instruct and help guide others to His Son to be the central Key reason for all of it.*

Those would be Catholics.

Read:1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

…“judgment must begin at the house of God:”… or …“if it first begin at us”…Where is the house of God?Read:1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

The head is the government of Jesus and the place to lay that govenment is in your heart!

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

So, who was that having dialogue with Adam and Eve in the Garden? Who confronted them about their sin?>>>guanophore

The story was written after Moses about the creation and giving us reason to understand why, hopefully understood in the spiritual sense, what transpired in the creation process.

The physical view of nakedness is easily understood by a child and the consequences of it.

You and I are passed the child hood understanding.

How did Cain know what kind of sacrifice God wanted?

Again the spiritual significance: Cain as Jesus offered up the first fruits (Jews) of which God rejected over Jesus taking the fall.

However, I will stipulate that God made a covenant with Abraham, which he had not done before.

The beginning of revelation of God’s character by faith acceptance. (Abraham the Father of faith) a picture of Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

Are we not saying the same thing? Until Abraham, did the revelation of who God is begun.

Blessings, AJ

Not that I can tell, let me look again.

The scripture is the basis for any knowledge of who God is.

Well, there was no scripture when Adam and Eve were in the Garden, and knew who God was. There was no scripture when Abraham met God.

Up and until Abraham, there was no knowledge about the true character of God.

I think we are in agreement that our knowledge of God is dependent upon His revelation of HImself, but this had never been confined to Scripture. It certainly did not come from Scripture in Abraham’s day.

That is evident by the many images of the imagined gods.

We are in agreement that man is made with an innate desire to seek after and find God.

They had an inkling of something greater than themselves but could never pin point anything because there was simply no knowledge of or any written source for reference.

This is the major point of disagreement. I believe that God has been present to mankind since Creation. How did every individual between Adam and Eve know about God, since there was no Scripture?

How did Enoch “walk with God”?

How did Noah know to build the Ark?

How was there a “priest of Salem” (Melchizedech)? What was he a priest of? How did He know God? Abraham did not know him.

How did the father in Law of Moses know God? He sure didn’t find out by anything Moses wrote!

So, we have the Old Testament, not written in the days of old,(At the actual event time) but at a particular time as mankind was inspired by the Spirit of God to write.

Being a reference to the nature of who or what God was, was the word written and by which set a standard for the world to see, via those to whom that word was entrusted to.

All that God had previously revealed about Himself to man preceeded even the OT.

So, naturally, the bible as compiled by those whom God inspired, gather together, gave responsibility to, and the ones inspired to preach, teach, instruct and help guide others to His Son to be the central Key reason for all of it.

I dont’ have an arguement with this. As a matter of fact, it is a very Catholic statement.

No bible no church!

This was the major point of my disagreement, since the Church produced the bible, not vice versa.

Are we not saying the same thing? Until Abraham, did the revelation of who God is begun.

Blessings, AJ

No after looking al lof this over, it seems we are not saying the same thing. In fact, it has become even more clear to me that God has been revealing HImself for millenia before He chose to make a covenant with Abraham. All those people in mentioned in Scripture that knew God did so because He revealed Himself to them, and it did not happen in writing.

 

[guanophore]

The scripture is the basis for any knowledge of who God is.

Up and until Abraham, there was no knowledge about the true character of God.

That is evident by the many images of the imagined gods.

They had an inkling of something greater than themselves but could never pin point anything because there was simply no knowledge of or any written source for reference.

So, we have the Old Testament, not written in the days of old,(At the actual event time) but at a particular time as mankind was inspired by the Spirit of God to write.

Being a reference to the nature of who or what God was, was the word written and by which set a standard for the world to see, via those to whom that word was entrusted to.

So, naturally, the bible as compiled by those whom God inspired, gather together, gave responsibility to, and the ones inspired to preach, teach, instruct and help guide others to His Son to be the central Key reason for all of it.

No bible no church! For every belief has its book, be it the bible, the new world translation, the Koran, the gold tablets etc.

God is not, in my view, ignorant of all that is going on with the differing belief systems that He cannot save.

He is the creator and knows of every conceivable sin that could possibly be conceived in the minds of mankind and still supply grace above all that in the saving of the soul.

So, the bible for you is a good start. Your church is a guide to help you along.

But the responsibility of you learning and understanding the things of God is not the churches, but you own.

You have to study, as many of us have, being tried in the arena of life’s experience, shaped and molded by the spirit of God to a stature that resembles His Christ.

Scripture alone is an introduction, the church is your encouragement, and finally, you are ultimately responsible for your own spiritual growth.

That my thoughts on the subject, hope it helps somewhat.

Blessings, AJ