Sola Scriptura questions

[look3467]

This is the major point of disagreement. I believe that God has been present to mankind since Creation. How did every individual between Adam and Eve know about God, since there was no Scripture?

Simple answer written in the bible: Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Pretty much covers the whole, don’t you think?

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Prophets…after Abraham… and Abraham being the father of faith.

Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses are a picture of Jesus.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God covers the whole, from it’s beginning to where no soul is left out.

Blessings, AJ

 

[onenow1]

The only question lies in where that church takes its authority - from the church itself, or from the scriptures.

Hi, Byzantine_Wolf Let’s see now! Old Testament Scripture came after the Temple, agreed ?

So would it not fall in line since there was no new testament until ? At least 20 yrs after the death of Jesus making consistant, Catholic teaching,that Church came from God, and the bible came from the Church, inspired by God,written by men, to be interpreted by the Church that put the scriptures together.

Something to think about: Jesus was with the Apostles, 40 days before Penecost, why didn’t Jesus replace Judas Himself ? Answer: He left it up to the Church in particular to St.Peter.{Rock} Matt. 16:18

God Bless



…

 

[guanophore]

How?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21for though they knew God, they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools;

Read:1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

…“judgment must begin at the house of God:”… or …“if it first begin at us”…Where is the house of God?Read:1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

What has this to do with your premise? You said all we can know about God is in the Scripture. This has nothing to do with how God reveals Himself to mankind.

Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

The head is the government of Jesus and the place to lay that govenment is in your heart!

Blessings, AJ

This has nothing to do with how God has revealed Himself either.

Your idea that the scripture contains all we can know about God is erroneous.

 

[look3467]

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
* How?*

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21for though they knew God, they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools;

That goes along with what we both agree on, and that is of the Godly conscience from the beginning, but the revealation was not until Abraham.

Blessings, AJ

 

[guanophore]

..."because a book cannot wield authority"... Please read: Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Clearly you are confused, look. Maybe a reveiw of direct and indirect objects from your grammar?

This passage is about PEOPLE!!! People wield authority, not books, however Holy they may be.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood
out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

This is our authority, to reign as kings and priest on the earth, as we are redeemed and have become new creatures who no longer are governed by the things of the world, as in the old Adam, but in the new Adam, the spiritual Adam of which we are the embodiment of His Church inwardly.

Well, we are in agreement on one point, at least, the book is not going to become a priest, prophet, or king. These are not destinies that can be fulfilled by a book.

As Jesus is of a Jewish descent does in no way give authority to the Jewish people over the old Testament writings, but were used of God in the mission of Christ.

The Catholic Church likewise was used by God to compile into one book the writings of those inspired by God to write, and in no way has any authority over the word of God but God Himself.

Jesus left the Church in charge. The Church produced the Bible. The Church has the authority to do this, because it was given by Christ. The Church recognizes two equally authoritative strands of God’s revelation through Christ, Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture, which was produced by it.

You see, “the chosen” people of God, the Jews were “cut off” and still are to this day from the salvation which is in Jesus Christ.

It had to be that way, otherwise, the rest of the world would have been without hope.

Although I affirm that this is a true statement, it still does not support that a book can wield authority.

Had the Catholic Church kept the bible to itself, as was originally proposed, the world would not have benefited from it.

Would you like to produce some support for your assertion here? How did the CC “keep the Bible to itself”?

How did the world not benefit from it prior to the printing press?

The last High priest sits at the right Hand of God of whose kings and priest we are.

Are you able to reach God directly? And how is it that you can? And by whose authority are ye able to reach God directly?

These questions are not related to the thread topic, or to your assertion that the bible is an authority. I can confidnently say that my ability to do this is not the result of a book.

Read: Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Do not pass goal, but go directly to the Father via Jesus when you cry out to Him.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

To whose throne?

…“authorities that were not appointed by Christ”… Read:2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

“Old thing” read: Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The Jews have the Old that as of today has not vanished from their eyes and hearts have no longer any authority over the old but must attain the new.

I am not sure this makes any sense, but I am pretty sure it is not related to the topic either.

Similarly, the Catholic Church has no authority over Gods word, for the word of God has been taken out of the hands of the church and spread all over the world as it’s own authority.

No, look. Stealing a persons copyright does not give someone authority over the work that was stolen. I will agree that the Word of God was taken out of the hands of the Church, and spread all over the world, along with the heresies promulgated by those who took it, but that does not make it “it’s own authority”. This was done on the authority if apostates.

The Spirit of God is not limited to any one particular temple, place of worship or religious and or non religious systems.

Therefore His word, is it’s own authority.

Indeed, He is not restricted by His Word, but it is His word is authoritative. The Scriptures themselves cannot wield authority, because this activity requires persons.

A child needs its parents for guidance as like any aspiring spiritual person, yet after that child grows up will become its own person.

Similarly, a spiritual person grows in the faith by the word as God gives revelation based on life’s trials and tribulations.

My views are not against any established religious system, but simply that the word of God is sufficient to lead anyone to God.

Blessings, AJ

The Scriptures are not a person, AJ.

Yes, it is Catholic Teaching that the Scriptures are sufficient to lead anyone to God. However, they are not sufficient as a source of authority. That is beyond their scope.

 

[guanophore]

The story was written after Moses about the creation and giving us reason to understand why, hopefully understood in the spiritual sense, what transpired in the creation process.

The physical view of nakedness is easily understood by a child and the consequences of it.

You and I are passed the child hood understanding.

Maybe one of us is not. If you are unable to see that God revealed Himself to man before there was scripture, and before there was Abraham, then not so much.

Again the spiritual significance: Cain as Jesus offered up the first fruits (Jews) of which God rejected over Jesus taking the fall.

Maybe I better back up. Maybe you are one of those people that does not consider the book of Genesis historical? If that is the case, then I am clearly wasting my time on this thread.

The beginning of revelation of God’s character by faith acceptance. (Abraham the Father of faith) a picture of Jesus.

You dont’ think Adam and Eve had a chance to accept God’s Word on faith?

You don’t think that Noah acted in faith?

Heb. 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable* sacrifice than Cain’s. Through this he received approval as righteous, God himself giving approval to his gifts; he died, but through his faith* he still speaks. 5By faith Enoch was taken so that he did not experience death; and ‘he was not found, because God had taken him.’ For it was attested before he was taken away that ‘he had pleased God.’ 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, for whoever would approach him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7By faith Noah, warned by God about events as yet unseen, respected the warning and built an ark to save his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir to the righteousness that is in accordance with faith.

And you did not explain how Enoch walked with God…

You know, if you wish to believe that God’s revelation of Himself to mankind began with Abraham, it really is your own business.

Peace to you brothrer. Keep reading, you will catch up!

 

[look3467]

My response was to yours:
Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
* So, naturally, the bible as compiled by those whom God inspired, gather together, gave responsibility to, and the ones inspired to preach, teach, instruct and help guide others to His Son to be the central Key reason for all of it.*

Those would be Catholics.

That I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*Read:1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

…“judgment must begin at the house of God:”… or …“if it first begin at us”…Where is the house of God?Read:1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? *

Of which you responded:

What has this to do with your premise? You said all we can know about God is in the Scripture. This has nothing to do with how God reveals Himself to mankind.

Yes, in the scripture God reveals to us and find the whole story in four steps:

1. Creation
2. Fall First Adam and Eve = life and death
3. Judgment
   4.Punishment.
4. Creation
5. Fall Second Adam = life and no death
6. Judgment
   4.Punishment.

God began to reveal Himself as to who He was, Faithful as Abraham to us in promise.

The law was added to add degree to sin, that by that God could redeem the whole.

That… one can find in the scriptures.

Blessings, AJ

 

[guanophore]

Simple answer written in the bible: Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Pretty much covers the whole, don’t you think?

No, not at all. This does not address my question in the least.

This is the major point of disagreement. I believe that God has been present to mankind since Creation. How did every individual between Adam and Eve know about God, since there was no Scripture?

You asserted that we do not have revelation from God before Abraham. This is not supported by Scripture.

I am beginning to realize that you got this idea from a source outside of scripture, and that it is best that you just follow whatever your preacher is trying to tell you. I can assure you bringing these errors here will not be pursuasive to those of us who know better.

Heb 1:1  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Prophets…after Abraham… and Abraham being the father of faith.

Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses are a picture of Jesus.

True as this is, it does not support your assertion that Scripture is the only knowledge we have of God. It also does not explain Enoch.

Heb 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God covers the whole, from it’s beginning to where no soul is left out.

Blessings, AJ

Ok, AJ. You got your souls covered. That’s good. Have a nice day.

 

[look3467]

Maybe I better back up. Maybe you are one of those people that does not consider the book of Genesis historical? If that is the case, then I am clearly wasting my time on this thread.

When I say “a picture of” means that Noah was a picture of the salvation of mankind from the flood of sins.

Similarly, Jesus was baptized into that same flood of sins, and rose above it to redeem us, or rather to pay the price for us and redeem the whole.

The stories may or may not be true, the message is.

The story of Jonas and the whale was it fact or fiction?

Is the message in that story not a picture of truth about Jesus?

It’s up to you what you want to believe about it, the fact is that it is a picture of Jesus in the tomb, spewed out the third day.

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Gods message is true through out the whole of the bible despite all of the human stories.

Blessings, AJ

 

[guanophore]

That goes along with what we both agree on, and that is of the Godly conscience from the beginning, but the revealation was not until Abraham.

Blessings, AJ

I don’t know what to tell you, AJ. Read it again, or read it slower? “God has shown it” = revelation.

 

[look3467]

Ok, AJ. You got your souls covered. That’s good. Have a nice day.

No, I rather you have a nice day!

God bless, AJ

 

[Dokimas]

No, I rather you have a nice day!

God bless, AJ

Can’t you both have a nice day and be blessed of the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[look3467]

Can’t you both have a nice day and be blessed of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Absolutely!

Thanks, AJ

 

[guanophore]

Can’t you both have a nice day and be blessed of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Amen to that!

 

[ariel7978]

I understand what your saying, I haven’t had personal experience with Protestant Christianity and I am not exactly sure what to call these different beliefs. I’ve been friendly with some nice people recently, but their beliefs make no sense to me. They keep saying “all you need is the Bible,” “we believe the Bible,” and “our church mostly teaches the Bible, but we just go there for fellowshipping because that is what church is for,” or “I don’t believe in man-made religion.”

Anyways, I’m trying to figure out what they believe but when I ask they just say they are Christian, and that they believe in the Bible. That doesn’t leave me much to google. Do you happen to know what to call these people and what their beliefs really are?

If it hasn’t already been said, they believe in sola scriptura - the Bible “alone” is the authority in matters of faith. Evangelizers will begin by saying “Let’s agree that the Bible is the sole rule of faith.” What they are asking of you is to reject Sacred Tradition and the authority of the Church. Christ left a Church to teach, govern, and sanctify in His name until the end of time. By rejecting that authority is basically rejecting Christ and His Gospel. As a Catholic, we accept the Bible as an authority in matters of faith because it’s God’s inspired Word; we cannot accept it as the ONLY rule of faith.

Reasons:

1. It goes against the Bible. Scripture states that Christ left a Church with divine authority to govern in His Name (Mt 16:13-20, 18:18, Lk 10:16). Christ promised that this Church would last until the end of time (Mt 16:18, 28:19-20; Jn 14:16). The Bible also states that Sacred Tradition is to be followed alongside Sacred Scripture (2 Thess 2:15, 3:6).

The doctrine of sola scriptura is not found in Scripture. The Bible tells us that we need more than the Bible alone. Not everything Jesus said and did is documented in Scripture (Jn 21:25) and that we must hold strong to oral tradition which is the preached Word of God (1 Cor 11:2; 1 Pet 1:25). We are warned in 2 Pet 3:15-16 that Sacred Scripture can be extremely difficult to interpret, therefore implies the need for an authoritative interpreter. 1 Tim 3:15 reassures us that the Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

1. It goes against History. The history of the Bible attest that it was the Church exercising its Apostolic authority that determined Scripture versus non Scripture. We need the Church to tell us what belongs in the Bible (1 Tim 3:15).
2. Lastly, it goes against common sense. A written document that plays such an integral role in determining how a person lives, must have a living authority to continually guard and interpret it. If not, we are all open to interpretation of Scripture to our own personal whims. Basically, there can be millions of interpretations of any line of Scripture.

 

[look3467]

If it hasn’t already been said, they believe in sola scriptura - the Bible “alone” is the authority in matters of faith. Evangelizers will begin by saying “Let’s agree that the Bible is the sole rule of faith.” What they are asking of you is to reject Sacred Tradition and the authority of the Church. Christ left a Church to teach, govern, and sanctify in His name until the end of time. By rejecting that authority is basically rejecting Christ and His Gospel. As a Catholic, we accept the Bible as an authority in matters of faith because it’s God’s inspired Word; we cannot accept it as the ONLY rule of faith.

There are two views here, one that the Catholic Church is the Church and the other is that it is not.

The other takes it’s view that the Church of Christ is the assembly of believers, so that wherever one goes Christ is there with us.

There is no disputing that the Catholic Church was given the responsibility by God to compile the books into one book any more than the Jews given the Torah.

What is key here is the message found within the pages of this book that determine the state of our souls.

One way to get there is through the Church, your Church and the other way is through the bible it’s self.

We can all agree that we live in a dark world, not physically, but spiritually, thereby necessitating the illumination of the light of God via His word.

Is there any disputing that a person who may get a hold on a bible and start reading can not find God in it?

And if one can find God in it also find the way to salvation?

So, for those who would like to hold on to the Church is as good as not, if the heart is changed towards God, then God would have accomplished His goal.

Mean time, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and our different views should be tolerated to the point of unity of one spirit, and that being the spirit of God’s love.

When Jesus died on the cross, there was not one that could have taken His place (though He sought for one) righteously, therefore all souls are included in His salvation.

All souls consist of whom? The good only? The bad? How about the good and the bad?

So, where do we fit in there? Are you good enough to gain entrance into heaven?

Are you bad enough that the grace of God can not cover it?

What is God’s desire to save a few or to save the whole?

Blessings, AJ

 

[Nicea325]

I’ve spoken to many protestants that believe that all you need to do is read the bible and believe in Jesus. Some of these folks almost believe that going to an organized church or being part of a religion is a bad thing. Their beliefs are very strong that you only need to read the bible and believe in Jesus, to the point of being anti-religion.

And to bad Jesus never teaches the false notion of all one needs to do is read the Bible and believe in Jesus. One cannot read their way into Heaven and no where does scripture teach reading scripture alone is sufficient for salvation.

 

[look3467]

And to bad Jesus never teaches the false notion of all one needs to do is read the Bible and believe in Jesus. One cannot read their way into Heaven and no where does scripture teach reading scripture alone is sufficient for salvation.

Jesus left us two requirements and that’s it! Can you name them?

One can not do one without the other.

After that, the responsibility for guidance belongs to the Holy Spirit.

Ref:1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Jesus had a job to do, and only He alone could do it, the rest was set up for the Apostles to pick up the teaching, the training.

Because the Gospel was new to many of the Jews, there had to be someone to lead them out of their old ways and into the new.

Many of the letters of Paul were addressed to the churches (assembly of believers) to address just such issues.

The Gentiles really had no serious problems concerning traditions which made it easier for them to believe in faith.

Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Ref:Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

Jesus will see: by the enlargement of His heart the abundance of the sea (People) converted and the forces of the Gentiles come unto Him.

Where in all of that is there any mention of any church?

The point in all of that? Is that Jesus shall inherit all there is.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Exo 15:17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.

Where is this “Sanctuary” located?

In the mountain?

Psa 48:1 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.

What is His Holiness mountain?

Mountain is representative in the bible as a governing authority.

In this case when we abode in Jesus as our Lord, the governing authority rests in our hearts, His governing authority, or in other words, the mountain of His Holiness.

Where do I find all these things? The bible!

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

…“no where does scripture teach reading scripture alone is sufficient for salvation”…>>>.Nicea325

No, but it will show you the way, the truth and the life!!!

Go get it!

Blessings, AJ

 

[Nicea325]

Jesus left us two requirements and that’s it! Can you name them?

One can not do one without the other.

After that, the responsibility for guidance belongs to the Holy Spirit.

Ref:1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Jesus had a job to do, and only He alone could do it, the rest was set up for the Apostles to pick up the teaching, the training.

Because the Gospel was new to many of the Jews, there had to be someone to lead them out of their old ways and into the new.

Many of the letters of Paul were addressed to the churches (assembly of believers) to address just such issues.

The Gentiles really had no serious problems concerning traditions which made it easier for them to believe in faith.

Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Ref:Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

Jesus will see: by the enlargement of His heart the abundance of the sea (People) converted and the forces of the Gentiles come unto Him.

Where in all of that is there any mention of any church?

The point in all of that? Is that Jesus shall inherit all there is.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Exo 15:17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.

Where is this “Sanctuary” located?

In the mountain?

Psa 48:1 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.

What is His Holiness mountain?

Mountain is representative in the bible as a governing authority.

In this case when we abode in Jesus as our Lord, the governing authority rests in our hearts, His governing authority, or in other words, the mountain of His Holiness.

Where do I find all these things? The bible!

Blessings, AJ

And what were all the above verses before? Words spoken ORALLY and TAUGHT orally…later penned on vellum/parchment.

BTW: The Bible never says or teaches that the Word of God is binded to written words alone.