Sola Scriptura questions

[look3467]

Of course the Church is the assembly of believers,

The assembly of believers is the church.

but the Church founded by Christ is also much more than just an "assembly"It is a mystical body whose boundaries extend beyond our space and time to include all those who have “died in the Lord” and are alive forevermore.

So far, we are in agreement.

The Church He founded also is visible, has authorative structure, and has been commissioned by Him to feed and care for the flock.

Visible, yes, as you and I being representative of that “mystical body”.

Authoritative, Yes, Jesus as Lordship.

Commissioned, yes, as His representatives; go ye into all the world.

Feed the flock…here we have pastors, priest, teachers, instructors in the many assembled organizations.

Christ dwells in the heart of the believer by faith, since such a one has been sealed by the promised holy spirit. Through that Spirit, we are made members one of another.

100% correct!

Any more than the Jews were given the Torah? Not sure what you are trying to say here.

The point was ownership, that neither the Jews or the Catholics can claim ownership, stewardship, yes, but not ownership.

Ownership in a way that would hold the bible or the Torah to themselves as sole interpreters.

Are you sayng that the pages of the book determine the state of your soul?

Of course not silly,the conversion of the heart does. But in the pages of the word, God gives us the instructions to lead us to salvation of our souls.

Get where? The Scriptures can lead a person to Christ, but when one enters Christ, he enters the Church.

Lets change that up a bit to be more correct.

The scriptures can lead one to Christ, when Christ enters us in spirit, then we become His church of believers.

Yes, what we don’t agree upon is that Sola Scripturists seem to think that God is too weak or indifferent to preserve His Word. Catholics believe that God’s word will go forth and accomplish the purpose for which it was sent. (Isa 55:11)

I don’t know what gave you that idea that sola escrituraist think that God is weak.

By no means is God weak in any way shape or form.

You can take that sentence and cast it out.

Sola Scripturists seem to think that the weaknesses of men are stronger than the promises of God, and that He was unable to preserve His Word the way He left it.

There you go again with that weakness thing.

God’s promises are the same yesterday, today and forever more.

That is why we, hold God to His promises, for He can not change.

People do this all the time. In order to find God, one must read with an open heart and mind.

True, and may I add the calling of God?

The Scripture can lead one to Christ, but if that were all that was needed for salvation, He would not have had to establish a Church.

You think your being witty huh, well, Ill give you that with that grin icon.

Jesus is all we need, not plus, added to or made up.

Jesus alone saves.

The particular church by a name is where believers assemble as a church to learn, share and live just and right in a world filled with darkness.

I am not sure what this means. It seems like you are saying that what Christ founded is not necessary. Is that right?

Assuming we are saying that the believers are the church rather than a church called by a name, I am saying that unless Christ converts the heart, there is no church.

“if the heart is changed towards God, then God would have accomplished His goal”

.No, look. The Church is not a “democracy”. It is a Theocracy. Unity is achieved when all individuals adhere to the Truth which God has revealed through his Son Jesus.

True, under Christ as the head and non other!

His sacrifice was completely efficacious for all, but not all are included in salvation. This is the difference between redemption and salvation. The price is paid, but not all will accept this.

Let me give you something to think about. If we are the ones who deserved death of separation, why then did the Son of God have to suffer?

Why would God allow mankind to beat His Son Up?

You don’t suppose God was a fault here, nah, you wouldn’t dare think that.

God justifies the ungodly.

Very interesting that you should say that since just above you said: “His sacrifice was completely efficacious for all, but not all are included in salvation”. as if the godly are not justified.

Some were not lost, all were lost, therefore salvation is not for some, but for all, since it is a work of God.

What has this got to do with Sola Scirptura? Or are you mostly here to evangelize?

To enlighten some, not all, for some seem to be already enlightened…you know?

Like Tool time Tim, " I don’t think so Tim" that I am off topic, for the sola escritura is suffiecient to lead us to Christ, because it is the Holy Spirit 's promptings, that gets us started.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Cinette]

I think you’re confusing the correct definition of sola scriptura with the distortion of it known as “solo scriptura,” which is often associated with the goofy old pastor beating a Bible and saying, “This is ALL you need!” You find that in fundamentalist churches or crazy groups, but the churches who REALLY follow sola scriptura recognize that having a 1611 KJV alone does not alone bring about knowledge of scripture.

In the case of your second scenario, if a person does not have confidence in personal understanding of the Bible, that is why he finds a spiritually strong church with knowledgeable elders, leaders and members to assist him in the growth. This is something non-Protestants often misunderstand: the Protestant mindset of sola scriptura does in no way deny the presence of the church, either as a body or teaching institution. The only question lies in where that church takes its authority - from the church itself, or from the scriptures.

In the case of your first scenario, that’s a bit of an extreme scenario, but the salvation of a person would only rest within the knowledge of Christ the redeemer, which even a child can understand. A person doesn’t have to have a ThD in biblical studies to be saved.

*I have just come on this thread and have a question to ask before I proceed. You talk of “sola scriptura” as opposed to “solo scriptura”. I need to understand what you mean.

I speak French and Portuguese. The word scriptura is a feminine noun - therefore it would be sola scriptura = scripture alone. Therefore a feminine noun would be accompanied with a feminine adverb. It would be incorrect grammar to say “solo scriptura”;. So what do you mean by “solo” - to me it is just incorrect grammer.

Cinette

 

[simspt]

The assembly of believers is the church.

So far, we are in agreement.

Visible, yes, as you and I being representative of that “mystical body”.

Authoritative, Yes, Jesus as Lordship.

Commissioned, yes, as His representatives; go ye into all the world.

Feed the flock…here we have pastors, priest, teachers, instructors in the many assembled organizations.

100% correct!

The point was ownership, that neither the Jews or the Catholics can claim ownership, stewardship, yes, but not ownership.

Ownership in a way that would hold the bible or the Torah to themselves as sole interpreters.

Of course not silly,the conversion of the heart does. But in the pages of the word, God gives us the instructions to lead us to salvation of our souls.

Lets change that up a bit to be more correct.

The scriptures can lead one to Christ, when Christ enters us in spirit, then we become His church of believers.

I don’t know what gave you that idea that sola escrituraist think that God is weak.

By no means is God weak in any way shape or form.

You can take that sentence and cast it out.

There you go again with that weakness thing.

God’s promises are the same yesterday, today and forever more.

That is why we, hold God to His promises, for He can not change.

True, and may I add the calling of God?

You think your being witty huh, well, Ill give you that with that grin icon.

Jesus is all we need, not plus, added to or made up.

Jesus alone saves.

The particular church by a name is where believers assemble as a church to learn, share and live just and right in a world filled with darkness.

Assuming we are saying that the believers are the church rather than a church called by a name, I am saying that unless Christ converts the heart, there is no church.

“if the heart is changed towards God, then God would have accomplished His goal”

True, under Christ as the head and non other!

Let me give you something to think about. If we are the ones who deserved death of separation, why then did the Son of God have to suffer?

Why would God allow mankind to beat His Son Up?

You don’t suppose God was a fault here, nah, you wouldn’t dare think that.

Very interesting that you should say that since just above you said: “His sacrifice was completely efficacious for all, but not all are included in salvation”. as if the godly are not justified.

Some were not lost, all were lost, therefore salvation is not for some, but for all, since it is a work of God.

To enlighten some, not all, for some seem to be already enlightened…you know?

Like Tool time Tim, " I don’t think so Tim" that I am off topic, for the sola escritura is suffiecient to lead us to Christ, because it is the Holy Spirit 's promptings, that gets us started.

Blessings, AJ

AJ, do u think the differences between the catholic church and your non denom church are inconsequential? as a member of neither why should anyone in your opinion choose to accept your church’s interpretation vs the catholic church interpretation of writings that were products of the early church and canonized by the catholic church historically? do u seriously have the Bible, Holy Spirit and me mentality and think that the ambiguous definition of the church you describe makes it relatively unimportant what church one belongs to as long as they believe. I apologize if i come off as sounding somewhat sarcastic but i truthfully am unconvinced of the lack of priority many Protestants give to the importance of the church especially when it is related to its writings eg NT… historically the church existed before the NT writings and has always protected its writings from false interpretation from the very beginning starting in the early second century (probably earlier) to the present. why should i as a seeker of truth accept your claim that the catholic church got it right with its canonization of the NT but now approximately 1600 years later your non denom church is more faithful to the truth of historical Christianity than the Church that produced and canonized those documents you claim hold ultimate authority in guiding your beliefs.

 

[simspt]

The scripture is the basis for any knowledge of who God is.

No bible no church! For every belief has its book, be it the bible, the new world translation, the Koran, the gold tablets etc.

But the responsibility of you learning and understanding the things of God is not the churches, but you own.

Blessings, AJ

AJ,
THE CHURCH EXISTED BEFORE THE BIBLE, THIS IS A HISTORICAL FACT. to me this shows the priority God chose. it was the early church that produced the NT writings during the apostolic and sub apostolic era and it was the church that catechized its members that were called to faith by the Holy Spirit. That was the Church’s responsibility and mission. Once you get acquainted with historical Christianity one thing is undeniable and that is how God used the church to spread the Gospel and how that Church protected its writings from those outside of it who distorted its message.

 

[simspt]

Clearly you are confused, look. Maybe a reveiw of direct and indirect objects from your grammar?

This passage is about PEOPLE!!! People wield authority, not books, however Holy they may be.

Well, we are in agreement on one point, at least, the book is not going to become a priest, prophet, or king. These are not destinies that can be fulfilled by a book.

Jesus left the Church in charge. The Church produced the Bible. The Church has the authority to do this, because it was given by Christ. The Church recognizes two equally authoritative strands of God’s revelation through Christ, Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture, which was produced by it.

Although I affirm that this is a true statement, it still does not support that a book can wield authority.

Would you like to produce some support for your assertion here? How did the CC “keep the Bible to itself”?

How did the world not benefit from it prior to the printing press?

These questions are not related to the thread topic, or to your assertion that the bible is an authority. I can confidnently say that my ability to do this is not the result of a book.

I am not sure this makes any sense, but I am pretty sure it is not related to the topic either.

No, look. Stealing a persons copyright does not give someone authority over the work that was stolen. I will agree that the Word of God was taken out of the hands of the Church, and spread all over the world, along with the heresies promulgated by those who took it, but that does not make it “it’s own authority”. This was done on the authority if apostates.

Indeed, He is not restricted by His Word, but it is His word is authoritative. The Scriptures themselves cannot wield authority, because this activity requires persons.

The Scriptures are not a person, AJ.

Yes, it is Catholic Teaching that the Scriptures are sufficient to lead anyone to God. However, they are not sufficient as a source of authority. That is beyond their scope.

The early church clearly viewed certain scriptures as authoritative based on their perceived authors eg apostolicity as well as other criteria orthodoxy, catholicity etc. All of these criteria eventually led to their canonization. historically this authority was based on the fact that they were writings that coincided with church tradition. Karl Rahner does a nice job relating scripture, authority and the Church when he states
B]"The Church objectifies its faith and its life in written documents, and it recognizes these objectifications as so pure and so successful that they are able to hand on the Apostolic Church as a norm for future ages."

 

[onenow1]

There is no difference in the gospel because the one doing the talking changes.

This thread is about sola scriptura. The whole point of my post was that the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified can be found in the bible. What else is necessary

AH ! Unity in doctrine is the necessary missing link Richard, thats why the Catechism of the CC teaches this> # 817 Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Quote=onenow1, The reformation created an unecessary rift,that to this day is attested to by the multitude of eccliasial cummunities,{not responsible for the rift} but vying for membership in the name of Jesus;using scripture, as the saying goes to tickle the ears.

Isn’t this just common sense ?

God Bless
onenow1

 

[Javl]

AJ,
THE CHURCH EXISTED BEFORE THE BIBLE, THIS IS A HISTORICAL FACT. to me this shows the priority God chose. it was the early church that produced the NT writings during the apostolic and sub apostolic era and it was the church that catechized its members that were called to faith by the Holy Spirit. That was the Church’s responsibility and mission. Once you get acquainted with historical Christianity one thing is undeniable and that is how God used the church to spread the Gospel and how that Church protected its writings from those outside of it who distorted its message.

That’s the trouble, Sim. Protestants refuse to understand and accept that fact. If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church giving all of Christianity the canonical Bible, and it was a Catholic Bishop who identified chapter and verse, who knows what conglomeration of scripture would be in use today. Also, the Catholic Church for over 1500 years had the opportunity to change, alter, add to, or subtract, from the bible :bible1: what it wanted to and to fit whatever it wanted to uphold its theology. But, the Catholic Church is true to her founder, Jesus Christ, and has not done anything to the scriptures except to assemble and canonize all pertinent scripture.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[look3467]

AJ, do u think the differences between the catholic church and your non denom church are inconsequential?>>>simspt

As far as unity of the same spirit NO!

What do I mean by the unity of the same spirit?

The same spirit that brings anybody to Christ regardless of what denomination, belief system is, is the self same spirit of God.

Eph 4:4 There is one body,(Body of believers) and one Spirit,(The indwelling spirit of God) even as ye (Us) are called in one hope (Called out by the Spirit of God to Jesus as our salvation) of your calling;

Now, Thanks be to the Jews for the Torah, thanks be to the Catholic Church for the compilation of all the books into the bible, but most of all, all power and Glory to our God the Father for moving men to write, with their own limitations, by inspiration of God’s Holy Spirit.

I have no beef with any particular belief system that looks to God in their own way, not necessarily, the Catholic Church way.

I don’t expect and or recommend any Catholic to leave the Catholic Church at all.

What I am simply stating is the fact that the center most important key figure in the whole of the bible is Jesus, of which is the real beginning of life, not any particular church by name.

If then, Jesus is the real beginning of life, eternal life, then the key factor in obtaining that life, while living life in a dead state, is by rebirth of our dead spirits.

That does not involve the use of any particular church by name, though they are conducive towards that end.

The process of rebirth is a spiritual exercise that is manifested in the physical by a change in behavior, termed repentance.

Repentance is a change of mind, from what was the old dead state of thinking, to the new state of thinking which is life in the spirit of God as sons reborn of God’s life spirit.

The bible is complete in it’s description, method, plan for salvation amidst all the human limitations in their abilities to articulate exactly what the Spirit of God inspired them to write.

Many words and phrases are written in story lines, metaphors, symbols, numbers to the best of the ability’s of the writers, but the self same spirit of God is backing it all up as He, the Holy Spirit tugs at the strings of one’s heart to prompt us to come to Him, as in , His calling us.

There by, all in all, God is at work continuously, daily seeking to save those whom He calls regardless of what, where and who we are at the moment, for God is not a respecter of persons, but looks at the heart and soul and deals accordingly.

You recall reading about the Apostles complaining to Jesus about others trying to encroach on the current movement by Jesus and His Apostles?

What was the point Jesus was trying to make?

Verses: Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Here we have the Apostles trying to claim exclusive rights to the ability to heal in the name of Jesus> Translation? Anybody’s claim to exclusive rights to God’s material is as the Apostles were when Jesus gently admonished them by stating “he that is not against us is on our part”.

The whole point here is not the assemblies called churches by a particular name, but that Christ, is the Savior of whomever is thirsty, let them come as they are to the wedding feat, to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Ref: Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Invitation is out to whosoever will!

The bible is complete in all it glory, splendor and power to lead us to Jesus for the salvation of our souls.

Now, how we choose to worship God? Well, that depends, who you are, where you live, time in human history and to whose parents you were born to which may have beliefs other than the Catholic Churches.

There is not here with me, absolutely, no disrespect for the Catholic Churches doctrines and or practices, for that is a matter up to the Holy Spirit of God to lead and to guide us to where ever we can do ourselves the most good and to others as well.

as a member of neither why should anyone in your opinion choose to accept your church’s interpretation vs the catholic church interpretation of writings that were products of the early church and canonized by the catholic church historically?

I am a member of believers in Jesus Christ as His church spiritual, of which I owe no allegiance to anyone particular church by name.

Continued on the next post.

 

[look3467]

Continued from the last post

I am sold hook, line and sinker to the rendition of what Jesus said He would do for me, and that is that He said He would give me life!

No church anywhere anytime can do that only Jesus!

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Guess what? That’s what I did! Anybody have a problem with that?

In the following verse the point is made by the words “circumcision and uncircumcision” meaning the process is a physical one.

So regardless whether one is processed physically, for whatever practice one wants to do, has no bearing on what the Spirit of God can do to the heart of the individual.

So, the answer to the physical process? availeth any thing,

But, “a new creature”.

And that…I am!

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor circumcision, but a new creature.

Based on all that, I find brothers and sisters every where, in all denominations, for the Holy Spirit is not limited to mankind’s imaginations, but to it’s own work of salvation.

If, some have preferences as to where they want to worship and how they want to worship, I have no beef with any of it. Their still my brothers and sisters.

I have no walls to climb over to distinguish between who is what, just Jesus and what He said He would do for us.

If the bible is the Sola Escritura, of which I bank on it, contains the message that God wants to convey to us about His Son Jesus, then He most certainly has the power, and the might to convey that message without anybody’s help.

All the historical efforts, by all the historical figures used mightily by God to deliver us His wonderful message about His Son, God has fulfilled in His bible.

Anybody have any problems believing that, pm me via this forum.

God bless, AJ

 

[look3467]

That’s the trouble, Sim. Protestants refuse to understand and accept that fact. If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church giving all of Christianity the canonical Bible, and it was a Catholic Bishop who identified chapter and verse, who knows what conglomeration of scripture would be in use today. Also, the Catholic Church for over 1500 years had the opportunity to change, alter, add to, or subtract, from the bible :bible1: what it wanted to and to fit whatever it wanted to uphold its theology. But, the Catholic Church is true to her founder, Jesus Christ, and has not done anything to the scriptures except to assemble and canonize all pertinent scripture.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

You believe God is not capable of delivering His message via any other means?

So happens, that He chose the Catholic Church to do so.

And now, the whole world can benefit from it directly without any strings attached.

Now, as for the protestant views, I were one of them that isolated all to the belief that if you didn’t believe in Jesus, you would be going to hell, and do not pass goal.

Not that there is something seriously wrong with that, it’s just that it in stills a sense of fear, as in the belief of a literal hell.

What God prefers is for us to come to Him freely without first getting beat up by the world.

Unfortunately, we are human, and with all the human shortcomings, which we find to our destruction, unless we should turn to God in the midst of all the hell, we shall remain in hell until we do seek Him out.

You see, one has to understand the reason for the flesh, and that is for the testing.

No flesh, no soul, no testings, no life eternal.

Did you have a choice in being placed in this hellish environment that does nothing for you but to decay, and destroy you?

I’ll leave you with one verse to ponder: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Chew on that for a while.

Blessing, AJ

 

[Javl]

You believe God is not capable of delivering His message via any other means?

So happens, that He chose the Catholic Church to do so.

And now, the whole world can benefit from it directly without any strings attached.

Now, as for the protestant views, I were one of them that isolated all to the belief that if you didn’t believe in Jesus, you would be going to hell, and do not pass goal.

Not that there is something seriously wrong with that, it’s just that it in stills a sense of fear, as in the belief of a literal hell.

What God prefers is for us to come to Him freely without first getting beat up by the world.

Unfortunately, we are human, and with all the human shortcomings, which we find to our destruction, unless we should turn to God in the midst of all the hell, we shall remain in hell until we do seek Him out.

You see, one has to understand the reason for the flesh, and that is for the testing.

No flesh, no soul, no testings, no life eternal.

Did you have a choice in being placed in this hellish environment that does nothing for you but to decay, and destroy you?

I’ll leave you with one verse to ponder: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Chew on that for a while.

Blessing, AJ

To let you know that I did not choose the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit chose it for me. He not only led me to it, but did so by pulling me by my ear. He opened my eyes and mind to Jesus’ words of truth. ALL of which are in the Catholic Church. I have studied just about every religion and cult there is, which includes Islam, Bhuddism, Hinduism, Zen, Shinto, and just about every facet of Protestantism there is, and of course, Catholicism. I had taken a college course in comparative religions, and have a pretty extensive library on all. After all this, I had decided that that they were all phoney and full of baloney, rejected them all and decided to prove it, especially Catholicism, the phoniest of all!

Delving deeper into Roman Catholicism to prove my point is when the Holy Spirit grabbed me and showed me the errors I had gotten into. The more I dug deeper into the Catholic Church and compared it to all the others, the more I became convinced that it was true and the true Church. and neither you, nor anyone else can tell me or prove other wise. All I can say is that you will have to open yourself to the Holy Spirit and He will lead you to all truth. Anything other than the Catholic Chuch IS NOT the promptings of The Holy Spirit but personal preference. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Richard_Kastner]

AH ! Unity in doctrine is the necessary missing link Richard, thats why the Catechism of the CC teaches this> # 817 Wounds to unity

Missing from what? The bible? There is no disunity in the bible. It tells us every thing we need in order to obtain eternal life. My post was a simple statement.

:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
There is no difference in the gospel because the one doing the talking changes.

This thread is about sola scriptura. The whole point of my post was that the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified can be found in the bible. What else is necessary

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Quote=onenow1, The reformation created an unecessary rift,that to this day is attested to by the multitude of eccliasial cummunities,{not responsible for the rift} but vying for membership in the name of Jesus;using scripture, as the saying goes to tickle the ears.

Isn’t this just common sense ?

God Bless
onenow1

This quote from the catechism does not address this simply statement. You seem to be trying to obscure what to me is a very simple question. The question. Does the bible show us who Jesus is and how do we attain eternal life?

Rom.10
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[look3467]

To let you know that I did not choose the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit chose it for me. He not only led me to it, but did so by pulling me by my ear. He opened my eyes and mind to Jesus’ words of truth. ALL of which are in the Catholic Church. I have studied just about every religion and cult there is, which includes Islam, Bhuddism, Hinduism, Zen, Shinto, and just about every facet of Protestantism there is, and of course, Catholicism. I had taken a college course in comparative religions, and have a pretty extensive library on all. After all this, I had decided that that they were all phoney and full of baloney, rejected them all and decided to prove it, especially Catholicism, the phoniest of all!

Delving deeper into Roman Catholicism to prove my point is when the Holy Spirit grabbed me and showed me the errors I had gotten into. The more I dug deeper into the Catholic Church and compared it to all the others, the more I became convinced that it was true and the true Church. and neither you, nor anyone else can tell me or prove other wise. All I can say is that you will have to open yourself to the Holy Spirit and He will lead you to all truth. Anything other than the Catholic Chuch IS NOT the promptings of The Holy Spirit but personal preference. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Well guess what Pax, I’ve pretty much done the same thing. The only difference I believe between you and I is views, and that God knows the spirit in us is the self same spirit of His, other than that, we are where we are just because, as you and I claim, that the Holy Spirit wants us where we are.

A father of six children, I know and understand that they all love me.

How they love me is, in six different ways. Each one shows their love in their own way.

You and I love God and in our own way we worship the same God in the same spirit.

All’s we can do is share in any new insights and learn to live with our differences in a fashion that brings credit to God.

When I say promptings, is referenced here: Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Unless we are first touched by the Holy Spirit, none of us would even care to seek God.

Many are touched, and many can not recognize the touch, but rather choose the world over the promptings.

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

Missing from what? The bible? There is no disunity in the bible. It tells us every thing we need in order to obtain eternal life.

Hmmm…that’s a peculiar statement that’s not Biblical. In fact, the Bible says quite the opposite.

Also, how could the Bible tell us “everything we need in order to obtain eternal life” since it doesn’t even tell us what’s to be considered* theopneustos.*. One needs the Church to tell us that!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hmmm…that’s a peculiar statement that’s not Biblical.

No, that statement is not in the bible, but this one is.

Rom.10
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

What more is needed PR. BTW this was in the post you answered.

In fact, the Bible says quite the opposite.

How so?

Also, how could the Bible tell us “everything we need in order to obtain eternal life” since it doesn’t even tell us what’s to be considered* theopneustos.*. One needs the Church to tell us that!

I’m not familiar with the term “theopneustos”, but I am somewhat familiar with what the bible says and it says if we believe in Jesus, confess with our mouth that belief, and repent of our sins we will be saved. For me that’s enough.

 

[PRmerger]

No, that statement is not in the bible, but this one is.

Rom.10
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

What more is needed PR.

What is needed is the Church to tell you that these words are the Word of God. Otherwise, without the Catholic Church, you would not know that ithey were God-breathed (theopneustos).

How so?

[BIBLEDRB]John 20:30[/BIBLEDRB]

I’m not familiar with the term “theopneustos”, but I am somewhat familiar with what the bible says and it says if we believe in Jesus, confess with our mouth that belief, and repent of our sins we will be saved. For me that’s enough.

See what else the Scriptures say are required for our salvation:

We are saved…

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation?[SIGN1] Can we be saved without faith? Without God’s grace? Without repentance? Without baptism? Without the Spirit?[/SIGN1]

The Answer:

These are all involved and necessary; ***not one of them can be dismissed as a means of obtaining eternal life. ***Neither can one be emphasized to the exclusion of another. They are all involved in salvation and entry into the Church. The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up; overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness." source: Steve Ray

 

[onenow1]

Missing from what? The bible? There is no disunity in the bible. It tells us every thing we need in order to obtain eternal life. My post was a simple statement.

Quote=onenow1 MISSING IS ! Consistent interpretation of scripture,{ Authority }. Jesus left us a church to settle disputes, RK this requires one voice as Jesus prayed.

John 17: 20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matt. 18:15-18).
God Bless
onenow1

“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me” (Luke 10:16).

“If I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I shall not be put to shame” (1 Cor. 10:8).

“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2).

John 20:30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book

=RK This quote from the catechism does not address this simply statement. You seem to be trying to obscure what to me is a very simple question. The question. Does the bible show us who Jesus is and how do we attain eternal life?

Quote=onenow1 We know Jesus from the bible and tradition testifies. The question still remains, how do we know the bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit,>ANSWER=CHURCH and by who’s authority has this been attested to, other then the CC guided by the Holy Spirit, that put it together for all ?

God Bless
onenow1

 

[Richard_Kastner]

What is needed is the Church to tell you that these words are the Word of God. Otherwise, without the Catholic Church, you would not know that ithey were God-breathed (theopneustos).

I don’t understand your point. You probably are not saying that these words are not God-breathed as you put it and they are definitely in the bible. I don’t know about you but I certainly don’t need the CC to tell me that these are “God-breathed”

I said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
Missing from what? The bible? There is no disunity in the bible. It tells us every thing we need in order to obtain eternal life.

To which you replied

Hmmm…that’s a peculiar statement that’s not Biblical. In fact, the Bible says quite the opposite.

To which I replied

:
How so?

And then you gave this verse

[BIBLEDRB]John 20:30[/BIBLEDRB]

How in the world do you think that this verse says that the bible doesn’t tell us everything we need to know to gain eternal life?

See what else the Scriptures say are required for our salvation:

We are saved…

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation?[SIGN1] Can we be saved without faith? Without God’s grace? Without repentance? Without baptism? Without the Spirit?[/SIGN1]

The Answer:

These are all involved and necessary; ***not one of them can be dismissed as a means of obtaining eternal life. ***Neither can one be emphasized to the exclusion of another. They are all involved in salvation and entry into the Church. The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up; overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness." source: Steve Ray

All those verses are from the bible are they not PR?

Remember this statement
I’m not familiar with the term “theopneustos”, but I am somewhat familiar with what the bible says and it says if we believe in Jesus, confess with our mouth that belief, and repent of our sins we will be saved. For me that’s enough. I’m sorry I should have included be baptised, but we are not saved by baptism.

As for the works
Eph2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We will be judged by our works but we certainly can’t save ourselves by them.
Jn14:6

 

[Jimmy_B]

By the same token that a baby can not sin because the baby has no knowledge of good and evil.

In the book of Genesis it states that “the day” knowledge is ingested and acted upon, separation between that soul and God begins.

Ref: Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

A baby, and the mentally impaired are innocent of any sin until the day they eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, should that be, their spiritual eyes are not opened thus not able to discern (judge) between good and evil.

But for those of us who are able and our eyes opened after gaining knowledge of good and evil, become separated spiritually, meaning dead spiritually, and must needs to have a rebirth from a dead state.

The bible is our guide to Christ the center of life, the beginning of life, and the bible states that all is required is simple faith, not a PHD in the bible’s understandings.

Ref: Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

1. To open their eyes = eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
2. to turn them from darkness = the consequence of number 1 above.
3. to turn them… to light = from a dead state to life
4. from the power of Satan = Same as number 3.
5. unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins = redemption by Grace
6. inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith = By faith receive your inheritance saved for you, or what the word santified means set apart/aside for you.
7. by faith that is in me. = not that the faith of the speaker but: " and the faith which introduces the soul to all this is emphatically declared by the glorified Redeemer to rest upon Himself -
   The faith of Jesus!

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Now that, is having a relationship with Christ when God’s grace to us is realized and accepted.

Blessings, AJ

I like your list of Seven things to do… What do you think about the Seven Holy Sacraments? How does that factor into your faith?

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t understand your point. You probably are not saying that these words are not God-breathed as you put it and they are definitely in the bible. I don’t know about you but I certainly don’t need the CC to tell me that these are “God-breathed”

And how would you know that they are inspired, if it weren’t for the Catholic Church telling you they were, Richard?