J
jericho777
Guest
Paul penned his letters under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so that would qualify it as scripture. He certainly did not say to go to the church to find out who God is.
- Status
J
jericho777
Guest
Verse 17"that the man of God may be COMPLETE"2 Timothy 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to INSTRUCT you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is inspired by God and PROFITABLE for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for TRAINING in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good WORK.
Jericho, nowhere does it say sufficient !
Indeed ! John 16: 12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Sounds like fiture truths are coming to His Church.
God Bless
I would think complete means suffecient.
Jude 1:3 Dearly beloved, taking all care to write unto you concerning your common salvation, I was under a necessity to write unto you: to beseech you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.
Our complete faith has BEEN delivered there is nothing new to add to salvation.
P
PRmerger
Guest
So wasn’t St. Paul saying that the Old Testament, which were the only Scriptures available to Timothy in his youth, makes the man of God COMPLETE?
Is that really your premise?
That is very Catholic of you to say that, jericho!
P
PRmerger
Guest
And what if the Shepherd of Hermes claimed that he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Does that qualify it as Scripture?
And where does Paul say he penned his letters under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?
How *do *we find out who God is, according to your paradigm, jericho?
J
jericho777
Guest
Jesus death on the cross wipes away every sin so when I die I will be in the presence of God. He justifies all believers. But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I don’t see a pit stop in purgatory mentioned here.
J
jericho777
Guest
There is enough information present in the OT to find salvation in Christ Jesus. God by His grace has given us an even deeper understanding of who He is by giving us the NT.So wasn’t St. Paul saying that the Old Testament, which were the only Scriptures available to Timothy in his youth, makes the man of God COMPLETE?
Is that really your premise?
That is very Catholic of you to say that, jericho!
You all keep adding dogmas read additional things necessary for salvation. So your faith will be ever changing not constant as scripture teaches.
P
PRmerger
Guest
I’d be happy to discuss purgatory with you. Here’s another thread where it is on topic:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=463750
PM me if you join that discussion and I’ll follow you there.
However, as to the topic we’re discussing here, I know you can see the corner you’ve backed yourself into.
Either your position is you have to find all things explicitly in the Bible-
if this is your position, then you cannot make any theological statements about embryonic stem cell research (ESCR).
OR!
You agree with the Catholic Church that not all things are explicitly in Scripture, but can be found implicitly there–
then, you cannot argue against purgatory on the basis that “it’s not in the Bible” (but you can argue Scripturally about ESCR
)
P
PRmerger
Guest
Fair enough. It sounds like, then, you are agreeing with the Catholic Church’s position that Scripture (i.e. in your paradigm just the OT) is materially sufficient, but not formally sufficient.
How do you know what’s necessary for salvation? Could you provide the Scripture verses that tell you this, please?
P
PRmerger
Guest
LOL! If you’re a Trinitarian, then you submit to a dogma that was added. This dogma was not professed in the first decades of Christianity.
J
jericho777
Guest
God did not choose the Shepherd of Hermes to write scripture.
All scripture is God breathed. Do you think otherwise?
Scripture!
P
PRmerger
Guest
Amen!
You just don’t know what’s “Scripture” except through the Catholic Church. It was infallible when it discerned the canon!
J
jericho777
Guest
I am in no coner.I’d be happy to discuss purgatory with you. Here’s another thread where it is on topic:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=463750
PM me if you join that discussion and I’ll follow you there.
However, as to the topic we’re discussing here, I know you can see the corner you’ve backed yourself into.
Either your position is you have to find all things explicitly in the Bible-
if this is your position, then you cannot make any theological statements about embryonic stem cell research (ESCR).
OR!
You agree with the Catholic Church that not all things are explicitly in Scripture, but can be found implicitly there–
then, you cannot argue against purgatory on the basis that “it’s not in the Bible” (but you can argue Scripturally about ESCR
You misunderstand the meaning of SS. The bible declares murder to be a sin. So all murder is a sin. Is that so hard to understand? We refer to the bible as the final authority not men.Purgatory is not implicit in scripture. We are justified by Christs’ finished work on the cross nothing else.
J
jericho777
Guest
Didn’t we already debate this!
P
PRmerger
Guest
Ok. Then you’ve taken your side. Your POV: Specific words don’t have to be in the Bible in order for us to understand the concept.I am in no coner.
Purgatory is not implicit in scripture. We are justified by Christs’ finished work on the cross nothing else.
You can argue with an atheist that ESCR is wrong because murder is wrong, even though embryonic, stem, cell, and research are not mentioned–not once–in the Bible (not in Hebrew, not in Greek, not in Aramaic!). And when the atheist says, “Well, then, how can you object to the Catholic teaching of purgatory 'cause I never once read that word in the Bible either?”
and you’ll be stuck.
You can’t have it both ways. You know that, jericho.
And to continue to argue that you can is to be dishonest.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Yes, but you never acknowledged that there was an entity, an infallible entity, that has discerned for you that the Shepherd of Hermas is not inspired but that Ephesians is.Didn’t we already debate this!
Do you not yet acknowledge this point?
J
jericho777
Guest
Jesus said otherwise in Mark7:5-9 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with ‘unclean’ hands?”
6He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”
9And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
Manmade traditions are not binding on believers. According to Jesus.
J
jericho777
Guest
You are mis quoting what SS believes. Why would murder matter to anyone who doesn’t believe in an eternal judgement.
I do not even see the principle of purgatory in the bible. The theif on the cross never went to purgatory. Jesus said “today you will be with me in paradise.” Also Lazarus the beggar was in Abrahams bosom.
J
jericho777
Guest
Infallability is only for God. The cc did not decide what was scripture. Scripture was defined by God not men.
I think where we disagree is the will of men verses the will of God. God sovereignly ordains His will apart form that of men. HE ordainded scripture not your church or my church.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Perhaps you’ve never had any discussions with atheists? They do indeed care about murder even while not believing in eternal judgment.
At any rate, one can argue from the viewpoint of natural law, not eternal judgment, that murder is wrong.
Well, clearly, Jesus couldn’t have meant “today”, 'cause he didn’t go to paradise “today”. That was Friday. He didn’t meet the Good Thief in paradise until Sunday, right? Where did the Good Thief go on Friday and Saturday?
Ok. The CC does not claim that Lazarus was in purgatory.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Think about this, jericho. How did God tell us what was Scripture?
Did he magically produce a leather-bound King James bible and send it to earth?
Or did he us men, that is, ordained men who were bishops, to discern what was theopneustos?
Catholics have no disagreement with you that Scripture was defined by God.
You just have no way of explaining this process, without acknowledging infallibility.
Amen! God ordained Scripture. Please follow out that thought, jericho.
How did he accomplish this, jericho?
Either you’re professing that he did this magically, OR he used men. Catholic men. Catholic ordained men. Who were given the gift of infallibility.
- Status