Sola Scriptura questions

[jphilapy]

Paul penned his letters under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so that would qualify it as scripture. He certainly did not say to go to the church to find out who God is.

So do you believe that every letter that Paul ever wrote to the churches was penned under the holy spirit and was thus infallible? Paul was infallible everytime he wrote?

“He certainly did not say to go to the church to find out who God is.”

Uh he was telling them who God is, and going to Paul is going to the church. Where do you get the idea that it isn’t?

 

[Nicea325]

You are mis quoting what SS believes. Why would murder matter to anyone who doesn’t believe in an eternal judgement.

I do not even see the principle of purgatory in the bible. The theif on the cross never went to purgatory. Jesus said “today you will be with me in paradise.” Also Lazarus the beggar was in Abrahams bosom.

Misquoting what SS believes? Which group in particular since it varies among many non-Catholics. No offense,but your failure to see the principle of purgatory in the Bible does not make it wrong. You are no different than the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons who feel the same about the Trinity.

So the thief on the cross never going to Purgatory is proof it does not exist? Sorry,but your disbelief does not make it God’s Truth.

 

[Nicea325]

Infallability is only for God. The cc did not decide what was scripture. Scripture was defined by God not men.

I think where we disagree is the will of men verses the will of God. God sovereignly ordains His will apart form that of men. HE ordainded scripture not your church or my church.

Infallibility is for God only? So according to your position the entire Bible is full of errors,since men cannot be infallible?

The CC did not decide what was scripture? Then tell me what church or group of men did? Your error like many non-Catholics is the failure to understand the complex process of the canon. It is not a question of WHO,but a question HOW did God give humanity the Bible? Through His Church and its CATHOLIC BISHOPS…A UNDISPUTABLE FACT of HISTORY!

I’ll challenge you to show me if it was not the RCC and its bishops who decided scripture,then provide the historical evidence showing us otherwise?

 

[guanophore]

Where does Jesus (GOD) teach the above man-made tradition?

John 5:39-41

39 "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Jesus can be found in His One Body, the Church.

 

[guanophore]

Paul penned his letters under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so that would qualify it as scripture. He certainly did not say to go to the church to find out who God is.

Eph 3:8-10
8 Although I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given to me to bring to the Gentiles the news of the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make everyone see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; 10 so that through the church the wisdom of God in its rich variety might now be made known

When you read the account of the conversion of Saul, Jerico, it will become clear that Jesus identifies completely with His Church.

 

[pablope]

Infallability is only for God. The cc did not decide what was scripture. Scripture was defined by God not men.

I think where we disagree is the will of men verses the will of God. God sovereignly ordains His will apart form that of men. HE ordainded scripture not your church or my church.

Jericho777: I think you need to read up on how the Bible you know today came about. And I may I profer that you look at it with unbiased eyes or thoughts…look at it objectively and you will come to the truth of your statement.

In part to answer your question: What is bulwark and pillar of Truth? Where is this in the Bible?

 

[guanophore]

Verse 17"that the man of God may be COMPLETE"

I would think complete means suffecient.

And you would be correct, but there is an important truth you are missing, possibly because you are reading with your anti-catholic glasses?

2 Tim 3:15-4:1
16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.

Scripture is useful in the hands of those to whom the duties of teaching, reproof, correction and training have been given. And who has the responsibility to carry out these tasks, using scripture?

Eph 4:7-13
7 But each of us was given grace according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said,

“When he ascended on high he made captivity itself a captive;
he gave gifts to his people.”

11 The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ

Jesus gifted the Church with PERSONS whose duty it is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry.

One does not become “complete” by individually reading and interpreting Scripture. Scripture is useful when used by the Church to equip the saints. Those who attempt to equip themselves apart from those gifted by Christ often end up missing the mark.

Jude 1:3 Dearly beloved, taking all care to write unto you concerning your common salvation, I was under a necessity to write unto you: to beseech you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.

Our complete faith has BEEN delivered there is nothing new to add to salvation.

Catholics call this the Divine Deposit of Faith. It was entrusted TO THE CHURCH, and was whole and complete before a word of the NT was ever written. It exists in both forms, the Word of God alive in the Church (Sacred Tradition) and the Word of God in writing (Sacred Scripture).

The Reformers rejected the Word of God in the Church about 500 years ago, and the faith has been more and more deformed ever since.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus death on the cross wipes away every sin so when I die I will be in the presence of God. He justifies all believers. But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I don’t see a pit stop in purgatory mentioned here.

I am curious what you think of this passage that was written to believers.

Heb 12:14-17

Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and through it many become defiled. 16 See to it that no one becomes like Esau, an immoral and godless person, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 You know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, even though he sought the blessing with tears.

Do you think you have already been perfected in holiness?

Why does the Apostle warn that a believer can fail to obtain the grace of God?

Why does it sound like the Apostle believes that one can become “defiled” by bitterness"

Do you think that which is “defiled” can enter heaven?

Why do you suppose the Apostle teaches that one can “become” faithless (like Esau)?

Why does he make the point that it is possible to fail to inherit the blessing?

 

[guanophore]

 There is enough information present in the OT to find salvation in Christ Jesus. God by His grace has given us an even deeper understanding of who He is by giving us the NT.

It is interesting that so many people read the OT, and don’t recognize Him. Why do you suppose that the Jews did not recognize Jesus?

I don’t know a Christian alive today that thinks we can live the life that God has planned for us without the NT.

You all keep adding dogmas read additional things necessary for salvation. So your faith will be ever changing not constant as scripture teaches.

Really? what dogmas were “added”?

Did you know that the CC added the entire NT? Yep. It is a Catholic book, written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

What has happened is that people started “deleting” parts of the faith about 500 years ago, and it is ongoing. The faith handed down to us from the aposltes is so different from what exists today as to be unrecognizeable.

You make a good point, though. Since most people never had the fullness of the faith, they don’t realize that what they have is an abridged version. They think Catholics “added”, when if fact, The exercise of authority requires discernment, acts of the will, the ability to take responsibility for one’s decisions. Scripture does not have these qualities. The attempt to force Scripture into a role it was never meant to play has resuled in “each man doing what is right in his own eyes”, because each one who reads become his own authority.

 Purgatory is not implicit in scripture.

Sure it is! It is right there next to the definition of the Trinity, the instructions to worship on Sunday, and the table of contents for the NT.

We are justified by Christs' finished work on the cross nothing else.

You appear to be suffering from a misunderstanding about purgatory. The opportunity to be cleansed that we may be fit for heaven is only offered to the saved. Those who have not been justified by Christ’s finished work on the cross will not be able to benefit from being made into the holiness without which no one will see God.

 

[guanophore]

 Jesus said otherwise in Mark7:5-9 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with ‘unclean’ hands?”

6He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from me.

7They worship me in vain;

their teachings are but rules taught by men.

8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

9And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!

Jesus believed and practiced many traditions of men. He only objected to those that contradicted the commands of God.

I don’t think you will find anything that indicates fasting and praying is against the commandments of God, do you?

Do you believe that, when Catholics fast and pray, their hearts are “far from God”?

   Manmade traditions are not binding on believers. According to Jesus.

If this is true, then why did He tell the disciples to do what they said?

Matt 23:1-3

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it;

Where is “Moses Seat” in the OT?

You are failing to distinguish between Sacred Tradition and human traditions, and you are failing to distinguish between human traditions that turn our hearts toward God, and those that turn us away.

Luke 5:33-36

Then they said to him, “John’s disciples, like the disciples of the Pharisees, frequently fast and pray, but your disciples eat and drink.” 34 Jesus said to them, “You cannot make wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you? 35 The days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast in those days.”

We are now in the days when the bridegroom is taken away, and we fast together, and pray, as a community. This is a scriptural practice, and in no way contradicts the commandments of God.

If you do not wish to be part of the community that observes the fast because the bridegroom is taken, you can exempt yourself. There is no reason to criticize the spiritual practices of others just becuase you dont wish to be included in them.

 

[jericho777]

Perhaps you’ve never had any discussions with atheists? They do indeed care about murder even while not believing in eternal judgment.

At any rate, one can argue from the viewpoint of natural law, not eternal judgment, that murder is wrong.

Well, clearly, Jesus couldn’t have meant “today”, 'cause he didn’t go to paradise “today”. That was Friday. He didn’t meet the Good Thief in paradise until Sunday, right? Where did the Good Thief go on Friday and Saturday?

Ok. The CC does not claim that Lazarus was in purgatory.

I am using the principles of SS to discern whether ESSR is murder or not.

Does it really matter in the end if an atheist believes in natural law but is lost because he denies Christ as Savior?

Jesus is Omni present. The thief was in the same place where Lazarus was. Waiting for Jesus to ascend to on high. After this all believers go straight heaven. There certainly was not cleansing going on there.

 

[jericho777]

Think about this, jericho. How did God tell us what was Scripture?

Did he magically produce a leather-bound King James bible and send it to earth?

Or did he us men, that is, ordained men who were bishops, to discern what was theopneustos?

Catholics have no disagreement with you that Scripture was defined by God.

You just have no way of explaining this process, without acknowledging infallibility.

Amen! God ordained Scripture. Please follow out that thought, jericho.

How did he accomplish this, jericho?

Either you’re professing that he did this magically, OR he used men. Catholic men. Catholic ordained men. Who were given the gift of infallibility.

Certainly what was going to be the NT was used as scripture when it was written.
So for 400 years there was no word of God for believers to rely on. Maybe by virtue of the known authorship early Christians recognized they really were scripture. Or the Holy Spirit was guiding believers with that same written word and the OT.
Pharaoh had no choice to do the will of God did he.

 

[jericho777]

So do you believe that every letter that Paul ever wrote to the churches was penned under the holy spirit and was thus infallible? Paul was infallible everytime he wrote?

“He certainly did not say to go to the church to find out who God is.”

Uh he was telling them who God is, and going to Paul is going to the church. Where do you get the idea that it isn’t?

Only what God ordained Paul to write as scripture was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

You all only think God and salvation is unknowable outside the CC. That everything must come from Rome or it’s not kosher.

 

[jericho777]

Misquoting what SS believes? Which group in particular since it varies among many non-Catholics. No offense,but your failure to see the principle of purgatory in the Bible does not make it wrong. You are no different than the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons who feel the same about the Trinity.

So the thief on the cross never going to Purgatory is proof it does not exist? Sorry,but your disbelief does not make it God’s Truth.

The Trinity is very present in both NT and OT. When the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all held equally in scripture then they are.

Gen 1:1 the word for God is Elohiem which is a singular plural since God is one. And incidentally it is the THIRD word used in the text. Do you think maybe God was revealing Himself as Triune in the beginning?

Purgatory goes against the finished work of Christ on the cross. If he didn’t deserve purgatory NO ONE DOES! He never did anything but believe in Jesus as Savior. I’m sure you are a much better person than he was.

 

[jericho777]

Infallibility is for God only? So according to your position the entire Bible is full of errors,since men cannot be infallible?

The CC did not decide what was scripture? Then tell me what church or group of men did? Your error like many non-Catholics is the failure to understand the complex process of the canon. It is not a question of WHO,but a question HOW did God give humanity the Bible? Through His Church and its CATHOLIC BISHOPS…A UNDISPUTABLE FACT of HISTORY!

I’ll challenge you to show me if it was not the RCC and its bishops who decided scripture,then provide the historical evidence showing us otherwise?

Since GOD authored scripture it is infallible.

To humans we see complexity but to God nothing is impossible. He for ordained His will apart from that of men. You see men deciding where I see God bringing His will to pass.

It is nice you agree with God what His word was. Your focus is on your church whereas my focus is on God alone. So when the Jews today read scripture they can thank the CC?

 

[jericho777]

Eph 3:8-10
8 Although I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given to me to bring to the Gentiles the news of the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make everyone see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; 10 so that through the church the wisdom of God in its rich variety might now be made known

When you read the account of the conversion of Saul, Jerico, it will become clear that Jesus identifies completely with His Church.

The body of Christ forms His church. The church is the assembly of believers. Your perspective is the opposite. Your church makes the body and that’s contrary to the teaching of scripture. Jesus was not talking about persecuting an organization but individual believers.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

**Return to the topic of the thread.
And do keep in mind the expectatation of mature, charitable discussion as outlined in the forum rules.
Contempt for Catholicism will *not *be tolerated.
Thank you. **

 

[jericho777]

Jericho777: I think you need to read up on how the Bible you know today came about. And I may I profer that you look at it with unbiased eyes or thoughts…look at it objectively and you will come to the truth of your statement.

In part to answer your question: What is bulwark and pillar of Truth? Where is this in the Bible?

So is it your premise that the CC had the final say of what would be defined as scripture?

So according to your belief the church is an organization and Jesus gave His life for that organization?

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus is Omni present. The thief was in the same place where Lazarus was. Waiting for Jesus to ascend to on high. After this all believers go straight heaven. There certainly was not cleansing going on there.

The CC does not teach that everyone who enters heaven must endure purgatory.

However, if you want to pursue more discussion on purgatory, as I’ve mentioned, see the thread above and we can chat. PM me if you go there.

 

[PRmerger]

Certainly what was going to be the NT was used as scripture when it was written

Yes, that and about 300-400 other texts were in use also.

There was no consensus until the Catholic Church discerned, infallibly, what the canon of Scripture was that God desired to provide revelation.

So for 400 years there was no word of God for believers to rely on.

Actually, for 400 years there was the Word of God. It existed in the form of Sacred Tradition.

Maybe by virtue of the known authorship early Christians recognized they really were scripture.

If they did, that was by virtue of Sacred Tradition, for Scripture does not tell us how to “recognize” what’s Scripture and what’s not. You need an outside authority to tell you.

Or the Holy Spirit was guiding believers with that same written word and the OT

That’s a great example of Sacred Tradition, jericho!