Sola Scriptura -- what is the actual authority?

[Michael16]

Here’s the thing, Hodos: Why don’t you not respond in kind?

Also, please be more direct in answering questions or at least respectfully explain that you’re trying and then answer in more detail.

Please, let’s not be snarky.

 

[lanman87]

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling…

Notice it doesn’t say to “Work for your salvation” or “Work to obtain salvation”. It says to work out your salvation. Salvation is something we have already been given. When we “work out” our salvation we are showing the results of our salvation. We are displaying our salvation to those around us. We are doing the works that those who have been given salvation have been called to do.

Even the demons believe; and shudder… “
“ Faith without works is dead… “

We teach that a saving faith is more than belief. A saving faith is a living faith. It is a faith that changes our intellect where we intellectually agree that Jesus is the Christ. It changes our heart so that our affections are different and gives us a supernatural love of God and love of others that comes only by the Grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit doing a work withing us. . It changes our loyalty because we trust that the way of Christ is better than our own way. It changes our actions because of the changes to our intellect, our heart, and our loyalty. If our actions aren’t changed then we are deceived that we have a “saving faith”. If we truly have a saving faith then Christ become the most important thing to us and our lives reflect it. God uses those with faith to accomplish His work.

 

[Michael16]

I appreciate your points, Ianman87.

However: I respectfully have to correct you.

Working out your salvation/working for your salvation. Your point is really just semantics: Nitpicking words that really don’t disprove my point. How can one work it out without working for it? Consider this: When Saint Paul speaks of fighting the good fight of faith and completing the course to the cheers of the saints in Heaven; that states that the issue of your salvation isn’t decided until the moment of your death. You see my point?

As for the saving faith: Consider this. Just because I intellectually agree that Jesus is the Christ, and the demons agree too and that doesn’t change their actions; doesn’t automatically follow that I change my ways and cooperate with God’s grace for the salvation of my soul. If I refuse to amend my sinful ways and remain stuck in them; I’ll surely lose my salvation and my faith might as well be non existent. I hope you see my point.

Consider this also, please: Really what the rebels were teaching about saving faith is that they, while denying Saint James and the necessity of works; ended up agreeing with Saint James in practice that works are the fruit of faith; while preserving Sola Fide from its obvious contradiction. Think of it like they tried having their cake and eating it too as to preserve themselves from appearing to contradict Sacred Scripture, as in effect; they were doing.

God bless you, Ianman87. Hope this helps.

 

[Michael16]

In case I didn’t tag you; please see the above point.

 

[lanman87]

Working out your salvation/working for your salvation. Your point is really just semantics: Nitpicking words that really don’t disprove my point. How can one work it out without working for it?

There is a difference in working something you have out and working to get something. If I say, “I’m working out my marriage”, I’m not saying that I’m working to be married. I’m saying I’m working to make my marriage better and stronger. If I’m working out my biceps I’m not working to get biceps I’m working to make my biceps bigger and stronger. But I already have the biceps and I’m already married. The difference is working out something you already have and working to obtain something. That is hardly semantics.

Just because I intellectually agree that Jesus is the Christ, and the demons agree too and that doesn’t change their actions; doesn’t automatically follow that I change my ways and cooperate with God’s grace for the salvation of my soul

And that is exactly what I said.

We teach that a saving faith is more than belief.

Read any Evangelical Theologian that is worth anything and they will tell you that any profession of faith that doesn’t result in a changed heart and a changed life isn’t a genuine profession of faith. It may be an intellectual “faith” or an “emotional” faith but a genuine conversion to Christ results in a changed life.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

My apologies for interrupting, but I have to ask this question. As a Catholic, we believe salvation is a process. So Phil 2:12 makes perfect sense to us. Jesus gives us salvation and a robe of righteousness. But unfortunately we get that robe kinda filthy by the time we meet him. The object being to try and keep the robe as spotless as possible so that our judgment is not as harsh, i.e, purgatory.

As a reformed Christian you believe you are totally justified the moment you confess Jesus as Lord and savior.

So I wonder why Paul is saying we need to work out anything if it’s already signed sealed and delivered?

And if this is just about self evaluation and demonstrating what you already have and a person can not lose their salvation, I find it odd that Paul would add the “fear and trembling” part to it.

I think the context is saying be like Jesus, who was humble. So yeah, demonstrate your Christianity properly…but if there is no danger of hell or purgatory, why the fear and trembling? This verse has never really made sense to me in light of reformed theology.

 

[Michael16]

Ianman87, My position about intellectual faith vs. acting on that faith, i.e. works; is not what you said. The contention that saving faith automatically results, each and every time without exception or cooperation; in good works is a misreading of Sacred Scripture.

As for your marriage and biceps metaphors: Very good you used them. Makes my counter illustration easier.

In this instance, you can agree that without constant and persistent effort; your marriage and biceps will be lost. One simply cannot get married and expect the marriage will last forever regardless of any lack of effort on my part. The same with your biceps. Without exercise; your biceps lose tone, strength and go flabby.

Your metaphors apply equally well to illustrate my points regarding Sola Fide and Once saved/always saved.

Btw, I love Lenten’s addition: “ With fear and trembling. “ The only need for fear and trembling is if the issue of our salvation is in doubt. Please consider this point.

 

[steve-b]

Michael16:

Sola Scriptura throws out all authority over interpretation

Actially SS honors more authority over scripture interpretation while CC is much more limiting.

Authority in this case comes from the one who gave us the scripture(s) in the first place. THAT is the Catholic Church.

 

[lanman87]

The contention that saving faith automatically results, each and every time without exception or cooperation; in good works is a misreading of Sacred Scripture.

I guess we will just have to disagree. I believe that when we come into contact with the grace and mercy of God and are converted that we are so changed spiritually and “In our heart” that it is impossible for it to not show in our life.

In this instance, you can agree that without constant and persistent effort; your marriage and biceps will be lost. One simply cannot get married and expect the marriage will last forever regardless of any lack of effort on my part.

Really, I thought that Catholic doctrine is that marriage can only be ended by the death of one of the couple. You can have a bad marriage and a weak marriage if you don’t work on it but not working on it does not invalidate the marriage.

The same with your biceps. Without exercise; your biceps lose tone, strength and go flabby.

Yes, but unless you have some disease or have them removed by an operation you will still have the biceps. They may be weak and flabby but they are still yours.

 

[lanman87]

I find it odd that Paul would add the “fear and trembling” part to it.

I believe Paul meant with respect and reverence. Contrast this with 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

 

[Michael16]

If I’m understanding you right, Ianman87; your position is that a man of bad or weak faith, bearing little fruit; is saved just as much as the man with good and strong faith bearing much fruit?

Please explain how that makes any sense.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I’m interested to see if there are any textual differences in the earliest manuscripts. Because I’ve looked at the different English translations and most say fear and trembling.

 

[lanman87]

I’ve always been taught that to fear the Lord was not a terrifying type of fear, say the fear you have when you think someone is breaking in your home. Instead, I was taught it was more like the fear you have for your father when you are a young child. You love your father yet you know that he is in charge and know he demands respect and honor.

Hebrews 12:7-11 seems to put this in context

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

[lanman87]

If I’m understanding you right, Ianman87; your position is that a man of bad or weak faith, bearing little fruit; is saved just as much as the man with good and strong faith bearing much fruit?

Please explain how that makes any sense.

Well, if someone has truly been born again, regenerated, come to faith in Christ (whatever words you want to use to indicate a true conversion) then their identity has changed. The become adopted by the Father and part of the Bride of Christ. They enter into a relationship with the Father that they did not have before.

This change is shown to be real by the change in their life. Basically their attitudes and actions. All Christians will bear some kind of fruit. But some bear more fruit than others. Some will become evangelist and missionaries, some will faithfully worship and serve in their local church and support the ministries of their local church. But some, due to various reasons, have fruit that we may not recognize. In my flawed analogy it would be “some will have big strong biceps and some will barely have the strength to move”.

For instance, if someone is suffering from depression their fruit may simply be to get out of bed every morning and get through the day. If someone is in abusive relationship their fruit may be surviving from day to day. If someone has PTSD their fruit may be keeping their anger under control. If someone is an alcoholic their fruit may be just making it through the day without a drink.

It is also important to note that there is a difference between denying God and to have a weak faith. To deny God is to not believe/accept God’s truth.

Just after saying “If we deny God He will deny us” Paul tells Timothy "if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself." 2 Timothy 2:12-13. The usage here seems to mean “not faithful in everything” as opposed to having no faith whatsoever.

And we can rest in the promises of God to His people, such as Jude 24, Isaiah 41: 10 and Romans 8:1-2

to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, Jude 24

“So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.”

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

So yes, someone who has weak faith is saved just as much as someone with a strong faith. God works in both to meet us in our time of need. He uses those with strong faith to do mighty things for His Kingdom and upholds those with weak faith by His grace and mercy.

 

[mcq72]

When we “work out” our salvation we are showing the results of our salvation.

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Hebrews 4:10 KJV

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now

 

[mcq72]

When Saint Paul speaks of fighting the good fight of faith and completing the course to the cheers of the saints in Heaven; that states that the issue of your salvation isn’t decided until the moment of your death. You see my point?

I think Paul is getting a little deeper in thought of the Christian walk. It isnt a simple keeping a ticket to heaven nor do i go to heaven or hell.

I think we are saved for a reason beyond the above. We have a specific purpose, or course to run. For instance Paul’s was to convert the gentiles…he was very, very ambitious and obedient to the Spirit on where and when to go…he speaks of a reward , due to each disciple, relative to their work…it can’t be salvation, for this is not relative to our varying degrees of work for the kingdom…it must be to finish our own particular race, or calling…the cheering is much more than making it to heaven but doing the works we were called to…of Paul for finishing his apostleship, for another being the bishop, another a singer unto the church etc.

He is not speaking about losing his salvation but his reward in being a faithful, to the end, apostle.

 

[mcq72]

Consider this also, please: Really what the rebels were teaching about saving faith is that they, while denying Saint James and the necessity of works; ended up agreeing with Saint James in practice th

Lol…i love your zeal but you twist other’s words…rebels do not deny one iota of James, but merely understand it in harmony with Paul’s multiple verses of salvation not being of works…as far as eating cake we probably both view each the same way, for I feel CC also says we aren’t saved by works, but by faith and works…so like saying we are only half saved by works, which of course is no where explicit.

So I wonder why Paul is saying we need to work out anything if it’s already signed sealed and delivered?

He speaks of delivering on our giftings and callings. Even Jesus mentions this a bit with parable of talents…to much is given much is required. He speaks of delivering on our giftings and callings.

We both agree that our walk is much more than just getting saved…it is also about the walking out…but life here is not an incubation period and when boom we get to heaven we are birthed…we are spiritually birthed here…and just like fleshly birth, we may live and do a few works if we die at 5 years old or maybe many works if we live till 65…all depends on how much we live/mature butvwe are always human…likewise in spiritual realm…we vary in maturitu, works but we are always spiritual born again beings

 

[Lenten_ashes]

And I feel like the protestant Churches dont actually say we are saved without works.

Case in point:

Luther: We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.

That sounds sorta Catholic to me. Both sides can agree there is a difference between genuine faith and baloney conversions that are not legit.

I examined this topic ad nauseum over the years. It really seems like the 2 sides are just splitting hairs as grace saves us and grace enables us to do any of these good works.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

There’s still the whole fear and trembling thing to contend with from that passage.

I feared my dad but he never made me tremble.

The thought of hell or even purgatory would make a person tremble, imo.

 

[Michael16]

First off, I’m not twisting words. I’m doing a simple and straightforward reading of Sacred Scripture.

You see, Protestant theology starts off on a an incorrect reading and then the Sol Fide thought line goes off from there. You have to look at Saint Paul’s writings in context.

Saint Paul basically states in Romans that we’re not saved on a solely works based system. He corrected such thinking when he wrote what he did about faith in early Romans. The Church has always condemned any works only theology and our clergy admonish us to avoid such thinking.

You’re essentially correct about the truth of salvation: It’s a faith and works system. They go together like a pair of shoes: Each necessary with the other.

However: Protestant theology assumes a faith only based system and spins off from there and creates a contradictory set of propositions; ignoring the rest of Saint Paul, or misinterpreting him from there; and Saint James.

Now, I can understand where the error comes from concerning Sola Fide.

From what I understand: You’re saying Saint Paul spoke of fighting the good fight of faith and completing the course as completing the walk God assigns you in your life. While your salvation is once done/always done.

But the problem arises when you consider the verse: Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

That contradicts your faith walk concept; as I will demonstrate.

Saint Paul wrote this verse to advise Christians to continually work hard at their salvation; that sloth in living out Our Lord’s Teaching will inevitably lead to damnation. That’s the good fight and completing the course means. Nowhere in Saint Paul’s writings did he mention a faith walk concept as you describe.

Because the crux of Saint Paul’s theology was the walk of salvation, supported by the Communion of Saints alive and dead; in which the genuine Christian must put serious work into transformation in cooperation with God’s grace in which the devil is constantly trying to distract, dissuade, tempt and mislead the Christian off of the salvation walk and into hell; all the way to the end. At the end; is when the saints and angels cheer. Now, he said the “ with fear and trembling “ because we have to be continually on guard, fearing the loss of salvation and the pains of hell; since logically fear and trembling at the thought of the pains of hell help the Christian to be mindful and on guard.

As for supposedly fearing purgatory: I don’t know where you got that from. We’re taught that purgatory is the antechamber to Heaven. If you make it to purgatory; you’re surely on your way to Heaven.