Sola Scriptura -- what is the actual authority?

[Michael16]

I’m not sure I understand what you mean?

 

[Tommy999]

DeMaria said:
"If anyone raised and exalted her status, it is the Being who selected her to be the mother of His Son".
Yes, however God did not raise her status above that of a human creature. In other words, she should not be raised to the status of goddess and I think some Catholics flirt with that line sometimes, in my opinion.

DeMaria said:
We don’t. We object to Protestants who proselytize Catholics and try to convince us that she is not the Mother of God. You may not be one of them, but the majority are.

Correct - I am not one of those Protestants you speak of. I believe Mary is Theotokos because she bore Jesus, Our Lord, the Savior, and second member of the Holy Trinity. She is deserving of high honor for that, so long as honoring her doesn’t include praying to her as if she were part of the Holy Trinity. You may not be one of these folks who do that, and I doubt many on CAF are, but in real life I’ve heard many a Catholic mention they are going to pray to the Blessed Virgin or a saint for this or that instead of to God, and I find that highly troublesome. I’m not speaking of prayer to them as an intercessor, but as if that person had the power to grant or not grant the prayer request themselves.

De Maria said:
And if God is praising Mary in this way, why won’t you?
I try to give Mary the praise and honor she is due. That is one thing I’ve learned from Catholics during my time on CAF. She is more than an incubator or Christmas prop, like some Protestants relegate her status to. She has a unique role in salvation history and should be honored and be regarded as “blessed” for that, and I’ve been trying my best to show her honor. I’ve even recited the Hail Mary prayer from time to time. However, I will never ever pray to her as if she had God-like powers to grant requests in the same way God and Jesus can. I will never cross that line and treat her as a goddess like I am convinced some (perhaps poorly catechized) Catholics do.

 

[Wannano]

Okay, Wannano. I’m sorry. I’m not meaning to offend.

Then, my friend; what are you meaning by the statement: Are you saying it’s hypocritical to say you are saved because you can’t possibly be?

If you can’t know you are saved it must be because you are not or because you feel you cannot possibly be. Being saved is a gift from God. Ephesians 2: 8-9 : “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not works, lest anyone should boast.”

 

[Wannano]

I’m not sure I understand what you mean?

See post 552.

 

[lanman87]

Since you say that it’s impossible to determine the validity of someone else’s faith; must you or even can you assume hypocrisy on the other person’s part?

I always assume someone’s claim of faith is genuine. I might question it if they don’t live according to what they profess, but even then I resist judging as I don’t know what is in their heart.

I see in your quote box that you had issue with the verse from Saint James. It’s biblical to rely on fruits and works to determine the truth of faith. As a Protestant; you must accept what Sacred Scripture says; especially when it’s stated explicitly. Are you denying Sacred Scripture?

James says that works give evidence of a faith that saves. I also say that works give evidence of a faith that saves. But I am also aware that people can do great things in the name of Christ and yet “not know Him”. (Matthew 7:23-24) Do you think that it is impossible to be part of the Christian culture and follow the Christian religious system and not have a heart that is far from God? Obedience to Christ is an inward belief and trust that makes itself manifest in outward obedience. You can be obedient to a religious system and yet never know Christ.

s really just someone hypocritically faking that relationship and then later, giving up the pretense. It’s another paradox; as well as a flat out denial of human reality.

I think it happens all the time. People are trained to follow religion instead of Christ and never know Jesus and when they leave they are leaving religion, not Jesus. There are those who are living in the Christian subculture and find meaning and acceptance in the group, yet never knew Jesus. And when someone hurts their feelings or some more interesting culture comes along they leave “Christianity” for the new subculture.

People living one way and then “giving up the pretense” and “being true to myself” happens all the time in our society.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes,

Ok, good. I’m glad you agree that God exalted her status.

however God did not raise her status above that of a human creature.

God said, “blessed are you among women”, which exalts her above all other women. Are women lesser than men? Because if they’re not, if they are equal to men, then, yes, God exalted her above men, as well.

In other words, she should not be raised to the status of goddess

She isn’t.

and I think some Catholics flirt with that line sometimes, in my opinion.

I’m glad you said, “in your opinion.” The truth is that she is exalted to goddess status by heretics. A small group of Santaneros, who have made gods and goddesses of all the Saints. But it is not anything that orthodox Catholics do. Nor is it taught by the Church.

Correct - I am not one of those Protestants you speak of. I believe Mary is Theotokos because she bore Jesus, Our Lord, the Savior, and second member of the Holy Trinity. She is deserving of high honor for that, so long as honoring her doesn’t include praying to her as if she were part of the Holy Trinity.

You insinuate that we pray to her as though she were part of the Holy Trinity. How many times do we have to tell you that it is merely, your opinion, that we do so. We pray to her as a member of the body of Christ. The most exalted member, but we see, in Scripture, a similar prayer to another non-Divine person:

Luke 16:24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me,

You may not be one of these folks who do that, and I doubt many on CAF are, but in real life I’ve heard many a Catholic mention they are going to pray to the Blessed Virgin or a saint for this or that instead of to God, and I find that highly troublesome.

I don’t know what to tell you. Catholics may say they pray to a Saint instead of God, but they are merely saying that in shorthand or as a manner of speaking, because the Saint is asked for his intercession before God.

I’m not speaking of prayer to them as an intercessor, but as if that person had the power to grant or not grant the prayer request themselves.

See the biblical prayer to Fr. Abraham which I posted, above.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

I try to give Mary the praise and honor she is due. That is one thing I’ve learned from Catholics during my time on CAF.

Thanks be to God!

She is more than an incubator or Christmas prop, like some Protestants relegate her status to.

Why don’t you complain to your Protestant brethren about how they relegate her to the status of incubator and Christmas prop?

She has a unique role in salvation history and should be honored and be regarded as “blessed” for that, and I’ve been trying my best to show her honor. I’ve even recited the Hail Mary prayer from time to time.

Thank the Lord!

However, I will never ever pray to her as if she had God-like powers to grant requests in the same way God and Jesus can.

We don’t either. But, as seen in the Fr. Abraham prayer, God has given certain Saints authority to grant favors without explicitly consulting Him. What I’m trying to say is that those Saints are so united to God that they know His will and have share so completely the Divine Nature, that God already knows and approves what they will do.

I will never cross that line and treat her as a goddess like I am convinced some (perhaps poorly catechized) Catholics do.

1. You should not treat her as a goddess.
2. Catholics don’t treat her as a goddess.
3. Your concerns are not completely without merit but they are vastly exaggerated.
4. Your Protestant presupposition, in my opinion, is based upon the much abused line that God “does not share His glory”. However, this is an OT concern. In the NT, it is plain that God does share His glory, with those who have united themselves to Him with their whole being:

Romans 8:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Note that this is a Protestant bible.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I’m gonna say something unpopular here in the interest of fairness. You are correct that there are some Catholics who exalt Mary to goddess like status. I have seen it with my own eyes. And it is troublesome. I believe the RCC’s teachings on her are rock solid – however, they are not taught well enough and some manage to slip through the cracks, unfortunately. This is the bishop’s problem – but the priests are also at fault and even well formed laity are at fault for taking a blind eye to certain things.

And this is near and dear to my heart because it was quite the stumbling block for my ultimate conversion.

 

[De_Maria]

…I believe the RCC’s teachings on her are rock solid – however, they are not taught well enough and some manage to slip through the cracks, unfortunately. This is the bishop’s problem – …

I have to disagree with you there. We can all see the Catholic Church’s Teachings. Pull up the Catechism.

Everyone receives the same Teaching. If any individuals decide that they want to do things contrary to Catholic Teaching, it is their problem. If any Catechists are teaching in opposition to Catholic Teaching, it is their problem.

I don’t know why individuals want to constantly blame the Church when it is plain that the Church’s Teachings are rock solid. Mea culpa folks. If you decide you want to chuck the teaching on contraception or on the communion of Saints or whatever, there is no one to blame but yourself.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

There’s a ton of information to know. The Cathechism is like the size of the bible. I’ve read it cover to cover but I’ll bet most Catholics have not as they don’t have the patience.

What I wish is that Mariology is broken down into simplistics in every class across the country. Something universal with little to no wiggle room. One can dream.

 

[De_Maria]

Michael16:

De Maria made several good points.

I humbly would like to add that Catholic saints don’t say, on their own authority; that they are saved and go to heaven.

What happens is that the Church investigates the saint’s life and any miracles that occurred as a result of the saint’s intercession.

Once a firm determination is made; the Church then can say, with certainty and authority; that the Saint in question was saved and is in Heaven.

Right I understand that. It had been stated that Protestants pass judgements on others not waiting for Christ’s final Judgement. I was pointing out they are not alone in that action.

If the Church does it, she is authorized to do so. That is evident from Scripture:

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

If any individual does it, whether he be Protestant or Catholic, he doesn’t it against the Will of God as revealed in Church Teaching through Tradition and Scripture:

1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.