Sola Scriptura -- what is the actual authority?

[Michael16]

About the Mother of God and Trinity as descriptive terms. It sounded like you’re not taking it literally.

 

[Wannano]

From my point of view - Mary mother of God is more about Jesus than it is Mary. We dont want to fall into ancient heresies and start ripping Jesus apart. He is a divine person.

That’s why some of the traditional protestant Churches have statues or paintings of our Lady with the Savior as infant child. A visual of who Jesus is was very necessary throughout the ages when people were illiterate and benefited from such icons. So the tradition carried on.

I think I understand because honestly until today I did not know there was a heretical situation upon which it is all based.

In realizing that I must admit that probably I have had a bit of negative reaction to the term Mother of God because in my mind it was just the CC pushing the seemingly increasing emphasis on Mariology.

 

[lanman87]

Indeed, as Saint James 2:24 attests; works proves a man’s justification. Thus, works are a reliable indicator.

So you don’t think it is possible to be a hypocrite. To live an outwardly righteous life and yet be like the Pharisees who’s heart was from from God?

Hypocrisy goes both ways. You can live a seemly righteous life and yet not be close to God in your heart. Or you can claim that you are close to God in your heart and live and unrighteous life. You can even claim you are close to God and live a righteous life, because you know how to follow “the rules” and not really be close to God in your heart.

A saving faith is being both close to God in your heart (faith/knowing Christ) and having evidence of that relationship with God with your works. The truth is we don’t know 100% certainty of anyone else’s relationship to God by what either they claim (profession of faith) or their works (how they live). We humans are pretty good at hiding our deepest parts from others. And we are pretty good and fooling people. Now there are people I’ve know that I would be very shocked if they weren’t sincere as both their words and actions gave overwhelming evidence of a close relationship with God. But really their relationship is between them and God and my guess is we only get to see a small part of that relationship.

That is why it is best for us to not judge the “Christian influencer” who suddenly renounces their faith or the struggling alcohol who wants to overcome his addiction and yet we see him falling over and over again. All we see is what they say and what they do. God sees their inmost being and knows their true status.

 

[De_Maria]

Michael16:

Indeed, as Saint James 2:24 attests; works proves a man’s justification. Thus, works are a reliable indicator.

So you don’t think it is possible to be a hypocrite. …

Yes, that is why the Catholic Church Teaches it is wrong for people to declare themselves saved.

 

[Wannano]

lanman87:

Michael16:

Indeed, as Saint James 2:24 attests; works proves a man’s justification. Thus, works are a reliable indicator.

So you don’t think it is possible to be a hypocrite. …

Yes, that is why the Catholic Church Teaches it is wrong for people to declare themselves saved.

Are you saying it is hypocritical to say you are saved because you can’t possibly be?

 

[Michael16]

Of course, there’s the possibility of hypocrisy. I just don’t theologize an assumption of hypocrisy.

I have a question for you, Ianman87.

Since you say that it’s impossible to determine the validity of someone else’s faith; must you or even can you assume hypocrisy on the other person’s part?

I see in your quote box that you had issue with the verse from Saint James. It’s biblical to rely on fruits and works to determine the truth of faith. As a Protestant; you must accept what Sacred Scripture says; especially when it’s stated explicitly. Are you denying Sacred Scripture?

I see in your saving faith concept that you believe it’s possible to have an authentic relationship with God and show evidence of this in your works; yet you deny that it’s impossible to be certain of it. That’s a paradox, my friend.

I can also see in your saving faith concept; that you deny the impossibility of losing faith. In your own words: The authentic relationship with God. You state that the evidence of that happening, and it happens all the time; is really just someone hypocritically faking that relationship and then later, giving up the pretense. It’s another paradox; as well as a flat out denial of human reality.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

lanman87:

Michael16:

Indeed, as Saint James 2:24 attests; works proves a man’s justification. Thus, works are a reliable indicator.

So you don’t think it is possible to be a hypocrite. …

Yes, that is why the Catholic Church Teaches it is wrong for people to declare themselves saved.

Are you saying it is hypocritical to say you are saved because you can’t possibly be?

Because you can’t know with absolute certainty.

When Protestants declare themselves saved, they claim that they will CERTAINLY go to heaven.

We also consider ourselves saved, at Baptism. But we don’t declare that we will certainly go to heaven. That is God’s judgment to make.

1 Corinthians 4:3 It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I do not even pass judgment on myself; 4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.

Protestants pass judgment on themselves and even on others. And refuse to wait for the Judgement of Jesus Christ.

 

[Michael16]

Not only on themselves and others; but they take away Jesus’ Judgment, after He said only those who DO the Father’s Will go to heaven. Protestants assume Jesus will judge them on what they believe.

Believe all you want and even the demons do: It’s your deeds by which Our Lord shall judge souls.

 

[Michael16]

Your hypocrisy statement about saying it’s “ impossible “ for us to be saved is… wow.

By living a sacramental life of faith and works, trusting in God and His promises; according to the Gospel; we can be reasonably assured of being saved.

 

[Wannano]

Your hypocrisy statement about saying it’s “ impossible “ for us to be saved is… wow.

By living a sacramental life of faith and works, trusting in God and His promises; according to the Gospel; we can be reasonably assured of being saved.

The way you twist the words of others is getting very tiresome. Rather than making statements about something that you do not fully accept or understand try asking questions that would clarify whether the person meant to say what it is you are hearing.

Look at my post, I never made a statement, I was asking a question. The person I was asking did not react negatively…that should be a clue for you.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

De_Maria:

lanman87:

Michael16:

Indeed, as Saint James 2:24 attests; works proves a man’s justification. Thus, works are a reliable indicator.

So you don’t think it is possible to be a hypocrite. …

Yes, that is why the Catholic Church Teaches it is wrong for people to declare themselves saved.

Are you saying it is hypocritical to say you are saved because you can’t possibly be?

Because you can’t know with absolute certainty.

When Protestants declare themselves saved, they claim that they will CERTAINLY go to heaven.

We also consider ourselves saved, at Baptism. But we don’t declare that we will certainly go to heaven. That is God’s judgment to make.

1 Corinthians 4:3 It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I do not even pass judgment on myself; 4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.

Protestants pass judgment on themselves and even on others. And refuse to wait for the Judgement of Jesus Christ.

Keeping your thought in mind especially the last sentence, how does the CC canonize someone a saint after their death?. As I understand it, it means that person is in heaven or in other words saved.

 

[De_Maria]

Keeping your thought in mind especially the last sentence, how does the CC canonize someone a saint after their death?. As I understand it, it means that person is in heaven or in other words saved.

Correct.

Notice that the Saint does not declare himself saved. Is that the question? Or is it the question of whether the Church has the authority to declare that the Saint is in heaven?
To wit:

Matthew 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[Wannano]

Protestants pass judgment on themselves and even on others. And refuse to wait for the Judgement of Jesus Christ.

I ask kindly…Isn’t canonizing doing this also?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Protestants pass judgment on themselves and even on others. And refuse to wait for the Judgement of Jesus Christ.

I ask kindly…Isn’t canonizing doing this also?

No. Jesus Christ speaks through His Church. When the Church binds, Jesus Christ binds. When the Church looses, Jesus Christ looses. The Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth and the Teacher of the Wisdom of God through the ages.

There’s a vast difference between the authorized representative of Jesus Christ declaring something by Christ’s authority and a prideful individual declaring himself absolutely saved by his own authority.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

De_Maria:

Protestants pass judgment on themselves and even on others. And refuse to wait for the Judgement of Jesus Christ.

I ask kindly…Isn’t canonizing doing this also?

No. Jesus Christ speaks through His Church. When the Church binds, Jesus Christ binds. When the Church looses, Jesus Christ looses. The Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth and the Teacher of the Wisdom of God through the ages.

There’s a vast difference between the authorized representative of Jesus Christ declaring something by Christ’s authority and a prideful individual declaring himself absolutely saved by his own authority.

When Christ binds is the Church also compelled to bind? Christ spoke John 3 :16 by His own authority, right?

 

[Wannano]

Your hypocrisy statement about saying it’s “ impossible “ for us to be saved is… wow.

By living a sacramental life of faith and works, trusting in God and His promises; according to the Gospel; we can be reasonably assured of being saved.

---

 

[De_Maria]

When Christ binds is the Church also compelled to bind?

Christ binds through His Church. There is no other revealed way that Jesus binds anymore. Or are you receiving messages from Christ, today?

If you are, no one is compelled to believe you without proof, because revelation has ceased.

Christ spoke John 3 :16 by His own authority, right?

Christ established His Church and gave the Church the authority to bind and loose in His name. If you have another way that Jesus binds today, which is not by means of His Church, please let us know what it is.

 

[Michael16]

Okay, Wannano. I’m sorry. I’m not meaning to offend.

Then, my friend; what are you meaning by the statement: Are you saying it’s hypocritical to say you are saved because you can’t possibly be?

 

[Michael16]

De Maria made several good points.

I humbly would like to add that Catholic saints don’t say, on their own authority; that they are saved and go to heaven.

What happens is that the Church investigates the saint’s life and any miracles that occurred as a result of the saint’s intercession.

Once a firm determination is made; the Church then can say, with certainty and authority; that the Saint in question was saved and is in Heaven.

 

[Wannano]

De Maria made several good points.

I humbly would like to add that Catholic saints don’t say, on their own authority; that they are saved and go to heaven.

What happens is that the Church investigates the saint’s life and any miracles that occurred as a result of the saint’s intercession.

Once a firm determination is made; the Church then can say, with certainty and authority; that the Saint in question was saved and is in Heaven.

Right I understand that. It had been stated that Protestants pass judgements on others not waiting for Christ’s final Judgement. I was pointing out they are not alone in that action.