Sola Scriptura -- what is the actual authority?

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🤔 I see.

How about when someone loses their faith?

Say when a young man, all on fire with faith while in his parents’ home; goes onto college and loses his faith; seduced by the secular and atheist academic environment.

In this situation, If I understand your theology right; he has lost his saving faith.

Before he has a chance to regain his faith; he dies in a car accident. Since he has lost his saving faith; he goes to hell.

Here’s the contradiction, Ianman87: If, as your theology states; once saved/always saved means that this situation should be impossible.

Yet, such loss of faith happens everyday in our culture; unfortunately.
 
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Lenten_ashes said:
And I feel like the protestant Churches dont actually say we are saved without works.

Case in point:

Luther: We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.

That sounds sorta Catholic to me. Both sides can agree there is a difference between genuine faith and baloney conversions that are not legit.

I examined this topic ad nauseum over the years. It really seems like the 2 sides are just splitting hairs as grace saves us and grace enables us to do any of these good works.
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Agreed!!!
I was at a protestant bible study this week, i being the only Catholic, with this statement in the publication-
“Good intentions must be accompanied by acts of our will…
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I thought to myself, wow i wonder what the outcome would be if this were a Catholic bible study with a lone protestant in the room.

Peace!!!
 
Hahahahaha

It sounds like to me that they argue Sola Fide; yet accept the necessity of works.

🤔
 
Michael16 said:
Saint Paul wrote this verse to advise Christians to continually work hard at their salvation; that sloth in living out Our Lord’s Teaching will inevitably lead to damnation.
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Slothfullness? Where is that in said verses( though it is elsewhere).

To me you contradict your purgatory, which to me is at least in right direction of what Paul means ( you don’t lose salvation but lose rewards, or get in barely, as if by fire)

Yes you know in purgatory you are getting to heaven but i would still fear and tremble at the pain and loss.
 
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🤔 I’m not contradicting purgatory.

Purgatory, as correctly understood; isn’t punishment. It’s a place to purge the soul, that died without mortal sin but not holy enough to go directly to heaven; of all attachment to sin. Once purged; the soul arises from purgatory and into heaven.

Your misunderstanding of purgatory is distracting you from the basic issue: Hell exists and it’s possible for a believing Christian to go to hell. For people choose to go to hell through their actions and choices. For we must continually work on our salvation: Cultivating our spiritual life and growing in holiness, in tandem with good deeds i.e. works; is that working out your salvation. Sloth in this inevitably leaves one vulnerable to the devil’s operations and will lead one into hell.

As for verses on slothfulness. Unfortunately, I don’t know the verses offhand; though you have confirmed for me in your question that verses elsewhere describe it. Thank you.

But, a straightforward reading of “ Working out your salvation… “ leads to the realization that it’s possible to lose your salvation.

See: It implies in its meaning that we:
  1. Must work on our salvation and it’s a continual work in progress. It’s in doubt until our death. Conversely, it implies the possibility of slothfulness in not working on it.
  2. With fear and trembling also indicates that the issue is doubt. Otherwise, it’s pointless to fear and tremble. Thus: It directly refuted the position that we can never lose our salvation.
Saint Paul never taught that you can’t lose your salvation. The verses themselves make it quite clear when read straightforward and literal.

The counterpoint requires some exegetical gymnastics.
 
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Lenten_ashes said:
There’s still the whole fear and trembling thing to contend with from that passage.

I feared my dad but he never made me tremble.

The thought of hell or even purgatory would make a person tremble, imo.
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Well we are told to fear (respect) God anyways. And tremble is an extension of that

You don’t think being stripped of rewards is something to tremble?

Do you think one can be disgraced by abusing a calling, yet still be saved ?
 
Michael16 said:
Saint Paul never taught that you can’t lose your salvation. The verses themselves make it quite clear when read straightforward and literal.

The counterpoint requires some exegetical gymnastics.
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Counter to what? I am not discussing losing salvation as you are.

You have not answered the thought of the “joys” of losing a reward.
 
Michael16 said:
But isn’t that one of the core doctrines of Protestantism?
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No…
post:326:
You’re essentially correct about the truth of salvation: It’s a faith and works system. They go together like a pair of shoes: Each necessary with the other.
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Maybe, but to have feet you need to be born again, even justified. And you don’t get feet by works.
 
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Then, what are you discussing? I don’t understand.

I never discussed the “ joys “ of losing a reward. Where do you misunderstand me?
 
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🤔 Born again, eh.

We Catholics believe in being born again. That’s what happens in Baptism: We die in Christ and are reborn in Christ.

As for feet: As creatures, we are born with feet; able to walk with God. Should we so choose through faith and works.

You see:
  1. Choice.
  2. Faith.
  3. Works.
All three go together and are required for our salvation.
 
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Michael16 said:
I never discussed the “ joys “ of losing a reward. Where do you misunderstand me?
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That was tongue n cheek anout joy of losing reward. Admitting one can lose salvation of sorts, why do you dismiss Paul also meaning to fear losing rewards and not salvation?
 
Michael16 said:
You see:
  1. Choice.
  2. Faith.
  3. Works.
All three go together and are required for our salvation.
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So by works of righteousness we are saved?

Why doesn’t Paul say by choice, faith and works we are saved?
 
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You’re misunderstanding Saint Paul. Let me help you understand, please.

Where do you believe he teaches loss of reward vs. loss of salvation?
 
We’re not saved by works; you’re misunderstanding me. We’re saved by faith AND works.

Btw: I all capped, not because I was yelling; but for emphasis.
 
Michael16 said:
Where do you believe he teaches loss of reward vs. loss of salvation?
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Because of context of verse…really don’t think Paul was fearing and trembling and hoping He was justified and sanctified to be glorified. He was not shaking at the knees, biting his nails fearing for his salvation. Else how could he say he wished he could be accursed instead of His Jewish brethren?
 
Michael16 said:
We’re saved by faith AND works.
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Ok, just that Paul doesn’t say that…goes out of his way to say you are not saved by your righteous works…you can go to church on Wednesdays and twice on sunday, and you can feed the hungry and pray incessantly, and be baptized and confirmed and ordained, and none of that saves you, gets you two feet, makes you born again, justifies you…no righteous work saves you…not even half saves you…not even having faith that it saves you saves you…in fact Paul would call it dung compared to what really saves you.( saved him).
 
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