Sola Scriptura -- what is the actual authority?

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Michael16 said:
I lament the fragmentation too. That’s one of the reasons I get sooo upset when discussing Luther. It’s hard to keep a cool head.
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I feel the same about St. Peter’s Basilica. My thoughts always go to “this building project destroyed the Church.”
 
Here’s the thing: Jesus did declare Saint Peter the rock upon which He shall build His Church. That’s undoubtedly Saint Peter; the first Pope.
 
I disagree. Saint Peter’s Basilica wasn’t to blame. It was I’ll catechesis at the parish level and the fault of villainous pedlars selling indulgences when that clearly wasn’t Church teaching
 
Lenten_ashes said:
But if that promise was for all believers then we wouldn’t have 30-40k denominations all reading the same book yet interpreting it differently…sometimes subtle differences, sometimes major. I’m not saying the Spirit is not with all believers, because he is. But he is not contradicting Himself with different doctrines. So I believe that promise of being lead to all truth is for Church leadership, not each individual Christian.
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I struggled with this. The thing is, the Spirit can be difficult to hear. He speaks in a still, small voice. personal interests, wishful thinking, heck even our mood can dictate how we hear Him. Then if we do hear him properly, it’s often the interpretation of what we hear that can get messed up. I find when He speaks to me it’s often in scripture passages or through lines from the liturgy. Like, I’m praying about trying to sell our house so we can move ahead on buying our dream property nearby. Often I’ll have Matthew 6:33 pop into my head (Seek first the kingdom of God) or Matthew 6:25. It’s my application of why I felt him whisper that to me that can get messed up. I’ve been taking it to mean that worrying about getting the property or not is not what I need to worry about. Things will work out the way they are going to, and I need to be concerned about growing close to God and not where I live. My husband jokes that he thinks it means it’s in God’s hands and we’ll definitely get it! (He admits he’s likely wrong). I believe I have heard the Spirit speak. But what it MEANS is different because of interpretation. It takes truly knowing God to interpret correctly. In fact, IIRC, early Christians often weren’t allowed to really interpret for this reason. They were to get direction from the church. (Correct me if I’m wrong)

That’s what’s happened with the 40k+ different denominations. I believe they all hear from the Spirit. I also think their application is wrong because they don’t know God as He has revealed himself through the Church. They are interpreting for themselves, and without a well-formed relationship with God, then you’re bound to make mistakes. I think of it also like chatting with someone online. Or vague Facebook posts. Someone I knew was moving once posted “Big changes coming for our family!” and they got 30 comments back, all 30 congratulating them for something different (pregnancy? new job? new pet? new car? you get the idea) Everyone heard the same message loud and clear, but interpretation was wildly different based on the state of the person hearing it. And how much harder it can be to hear God clearly than to read a cryptic Facebook post.
 
Michael16 said:
Here’s the thing: Jesus did declare Saint Peter the rock upon which He shall build His Church. That’s undoubtedly Saint Peter; the first Pope.
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And by what authority did Peter properly respond to the creator of the universe’s question?
 
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That Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the living God. But: That doesn’t detract that Jesus was addressing Saint Peter himself. Not the answer he gave.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
. So I believe that promise of being lead to all truth is for Church leadership, not each individual Christian.
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Wrong paradigm…His leading is for every single disciple, which is every Christian, be you a brick layer or a bishop…but yes the bishop leads and feeds the flock…he is not led because he is a bishop, but because He is primarily first a Christian and secondarily each has gifted anointing to his calling

This is basic, even in OT where the young Elihu says old age should teach wisdom, but not always, yet understanding is irrespectively placed in the heart of a man by God Himself.

Jeremiah and Hebrews are quite plain about NT dispensation and graces…His laws are written upon our hearts…no neighbor will need to teach his neighbor to know God for we all will know Him.
 
Michael16 said:
That Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the living God
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Yes, but how do you know that?

Because, like Peter, you had God fearing parents and family, and teachers and priests even a magisterium, and have seen marvels in God’s name, read the scriptures, known Him even ?

How do you like Peter, discern between the various sects and factions of the faith at large…

.by what final ordained authority do you really rest in…as St. Peter did?
 
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The Catholic Church. I’ve read Sacred Scripture on my own; as well as doing research on Catholic doctrine. I’ve prayed the Rosary and derived many wonderful benefits from it. I struggled with much darkness in my life and Protestant theology wasn’t any help at all. However: Catholic doctrine and practices was and is a great help.

All of the above helped me discern where the truth is.
 
One of the greatest bits of doctrine the Church teaches is that God made humans good by our very natures and that we have free will. My understanding of Luther’s doctrine is that humans have no free will and we’re helplessly degenerate and evil sinners with no hope of doing better.

The visual I read from Luther was that human beings are piles of dung covered by the pure snow of Christ’s righteousness.

Rendering a human being helpless and passive. That held me back from making drastic changes in my life that desperately needed making.
 
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Michael16 said:
My understanding of Luther’s doctrine is that humans have no free will and we’re helplessly degenerate and evil sinners with no hope of doing better.
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If you read Luther’s On the Bondage of the Will, you will see that Luther is speaking of man who is in bondage to sin, that man cannot of his own will save himself, but that he is completely dependent upon the work of the Holy Spirit to give him faith, sustain him in the faith, and rescue him from sin, death, and the devil. Luther’s point is that sinful man’s will is corrupted and cannot of its own accord please God. This is actually the image we get in Paul’s letters.
 
I have to disagree with Luther. Adam and Eve had free will in the Garden to either obey or disobey God. Now; in the Church; we believe that humans have free will, albeit wounded with concupiscence. We have free will to obey or disobey God. For God to do otherwise, would make God into a less than perfectly good Being who punished humans for how He made us in the first place.

Here’s how I personally see it: Of all the creatures, God have us free will. We alone have the choice whether or not to love God. For if we were programmed to love God without a choice in the matter; is that truly love?
 
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Ugh. At least with the Church; it’s survived whole and intact for 2,000 years. Another reason why I became Catholic.
 
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Michael16 said:
Ugh. At least with the Church; it’s survived whole and intact for 2,000 years. Another reason why I became Catholic.
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The Church is not only and exclusively in communion with the pope.
I am happy you are Catholic. May you be blessed there in word and sacrament.
 
Thank you. I know there’s other churches beyond the Latin Rite. To me, they’re still the Church.,
 
Michael16 said:
I have to disagree with Luther. Adam and Eve had free will in the Garden to either obey or disobey God. Now; in the Church; we believe that humans have free will, albeit wounded with concupiscence. We have free will to obey or disobey God. For God to do otherwise, would make God into a less than perfectly good Being who punished humans for how He made us in the first place.
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Do we have the ability to obey God without grace?
 
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