Sola Scriptura

[ufamtobie]

Hey there Brkn1

I read your biography on your profile anyone can go and read it.
YOU STATED: "I am a Brother to Anyone who loves Jesus Christ"

Brnk1, and you call yourself a Christian your own words prove that you are not a Christian. Why we must LOVE EVERYONE
not only those who Love Jesus Christ, you must have love for everyone siners or saints, everyone!

For anyone who does not like his brother does not have Christ in them we are all brothers and sisters.

Ufamtobie

I’m glad for the absence of the Magisterium. They remind me of all the crooked lawyers and scribes that infest this country with all the unnecessary litigation that only is litigation for the sake of litigation. They love Latin words too. When I browse through some of the CCC, it looks as if some lawyer did his best to use big words to disguise the true meaning of whatever point was supposed to be made clear. It must take a bunch of lawyers to interpret that stuff. My eyes glaze over in no time, when I try to wade into it. I’m sure what I just said is a “mortal sin” in there somewhere, just like the use of Mary’s name in vain is probably now included as part of the original ten commandments.

Back to the Bible: “STAND FAST therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” (Galations 5:1)
What bondage?
The answer would be: the Law and its required works that are a curse to any who can not possibly fulfill the perfect requirement of those works of the law.
The just shall be justified by faith and not the law.
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” Gal. 3:24

“But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” Gal. 3:25
What schoolmaster ?..Why the Law and those who would require us to obey them as the new tudors and govenors of our salvation by requiring our submitting now to their bondage, as if they were a “lord over the laity” having “power over the laity” to condemn or release (bind or loose) that person, according to a presumed right of acting in the Holy Spirit’s place for us.

 

[Gamera]

Don’t lie or make untrue statements as you have just done.

Seeking God, it’s fine for you to correct another poster’s misstatement of fact, but this extra bit here is hypocrisy – you criticize another poster for making an untrue statement when you’ve just cut and pasted a long anti-Catholic diatribe chock full of untrue statements. For instance this line: “Many Roman Catholics have been indoctrinated to trust their clergy rather than what is written in the divinely inspired Scriptures.” No priest, no church document, no Catholic book has ever told me to “trust the clergy rather than Scripture.” When has any Catholic ever been told (let alone “indoctrinated”) to trust the clergy rather than Scripture? Never. So please, in your own words, “don’t lie or make untrue statements as you have just done.”

 

[Gamera]

If one really wanted to bash Catholics we would ignore them and let them march toward an eternity without Christ. It is our love for Catholics and our Lord that motivates us to be faithful to the great commission.

“Without Christ?” How dare you judge Catholics to be “without Christ?” That isn’t love. It’s nothing but bigotry. With “love” like that, who needs hate?

Our compassion for Catholics persuades us to proclaim that Jesus Christ is sufficient to save sinners completely and forever, a doctrine Catholics deny.

Catholics do not deny that Jesus Christ is sufficient to save sinners completely and forever. When did the Catholic Church ever deny that? Please specify the Church document to which you’re referring.

It’s our desire to exalt our Lord by exposing teaching or tradition that robs Him of glory, honor and praise, He alone deserves.

“Our?” Who is “our?” Did you just cut and paste this? If you “love” us so much, take the time to use your own words, don’t just cut and paste somebody else’s words.

I pray Catholics come to Jesus with empty hands of faith, bringing nothing but your sins to the cross! Only then you’ll know the peace of God which surpasses all understanding.

We do that every time we walk into the confessional.

 

[lampstand]

I have received a PM from Evlogitos that was very personally offensive. It was also, in detail, fairly hypocritical. More of that “you” (the general “you,” sort of tagging me with what happened hundreds and hundreds of years ago) brought us the Spanish Inquisition, etc. That cr*p. Just the same rudeness from exceptionally strident Orthodox that made me so upset with brkn1 to begin with. Yet Evlogitos ended it with a formulaic pretense at peace. You know, I’m not that dumb, don’t even bother.

If other people, such as Protestants, sedevacantists, etc., choose to leave the Church, then it does not distract from the Magisterium, because they chose to leave. I wasn’t aware that the Holy Spirit could force someone to stop making fools of themselves. People do have free will, they’re not robots.

It’s funny how some Orthodox people think they can look down their noses at us Catholics because we supposedly don’t know history-- as if nobody else but Orthodox people can ever open up a book and actually learn something. It’s this patronizing nonsense that has, time and time again, wrecked efforts to get people to cooperate with each other.

I know where I’m not wanted. See you later.

 

[MementoMori3283]

Wrong, I have not changed my sig. What you see is what it has been, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

Don’t lie or make untrue statements as you have just done.

my bad, maybe you just used the verse to end a couple of your posts…

 

[honeysuckle]

Those who are born again are born of God not of any human initiative. You can not be born again because you were born into a Christian family, or because of self-will or because of your parents decision to baptize you. It is God alone who calls and draws those He has chosen (Eph. 1:4 John 6:44. Rom. 8:30). The Bible teaches anyone (Catholic or non Catholic) who has not been born again will not enter the kingdom of God, but suffer everlasting torment in the eternal lake of fire.

If one really wanted to bash Catholics we would ignore them and let them march toward an eternity without Christ. It is our love for Catholics and our Lord that motivates us to be faithful to the great commission. Our compassion for Catholics persuades us to proclaim that Jesus Christ is sufficient to save sinners completely and forever, a doctrine Catholics deny. It’s our desire to exalt our Lord by exposing teaching or tradition that robs Him of glory, honor and praise, He alone deserves. I pray Catholics come to Jesus with empty hands of faith, bringing nothing but your sins to the cross! Only then you’ll know the peace of God which surpasses all understanding.

You are ignorant, have grossly wrong assumptions about the salvation of Catholics and the personal relationship we have with Jesus (which is based on God’s grace) and draw arrogant, incorrect conclusions about whether Catholics are in communion with Christ (we are; and while we believe that although you have some of the truth of Christ, you ignorantly and hereticly reject His body and blood) and are in dire need of repentance. If there is anyone without Christ, it is the man who is a schismatic, and attacks his brother in Christ for irrational, prejudiced reasons, and who rejects truth when he is given it.

How do you know that we are not born again as you define the term? How do you know that we do not trust Jesus in the same way you trust Jesus? How do you know we do not experience the Holy Spirit in our lives as you do? We are telling you that we DO. How *DARE *you substitute your judgment for our testimony and for the judgment of God. Do you not realize how deeply in error and sin you are?

 

[Evlogitos]

Siiiiiiiigh. I know this is a little off-topic, and I’m always pretty squeamish about raising the issue of private communication, but lampstand’s thrown down the gauntlet. Normally, I wouldn’t say anything–it’s my place to turn the other cheek rather than defend myself–but his comments, taken to their logical extent, give off a bad impression of my Faith, and that’s the one thing that will prick me into some sort of action.

In the interests of Truth, I will simply excerpt a representative sample of our communication. I won’t spin what I said; the readers may judge for themselves. If I did come across as unfair or offensive, please let me know how to avoid doing so in the future, and so I can apologize.

+++++

Evlogitos:

brkn1 is not Orthodox, so I don’t think your post is gonna have much impact on him.

I frankly find his take on Roman Catholicism slanderous and historically unfounded (though nothing I say is gonna change that, short term).

However, I have to say that your diatribe on Orthodoxy is equally offensive and unfounded. I will assume that it is based on lack of information rather than actual malice, and so I’ll try to share an Orthodox Christian’s perspective on your remarks.

lampstand:

Funny how the Orthodox had no problem with the primacy of the See of St. Peter before the Schism, yet when they were subject to its legitimate action of redress in a case they provoked, they seemed to magically ‘forget’ the way Church leadership had already progressed for more than a thousand years.

Most reasonable and well-educated Orthodox acknowledge the first place in the Church held by the bishop of Rome. It is the nature and specific extent of the primacy that is disputed, as I’m sure you know.

lampstand:

Talk to Orthodox today and they act as if the Papacy never existed in the first place. Talk about revisionist history.

This seems like an ad hominem attack. I fully believe the papacy existed, and I even agree that it exercised some ministry with universal scope. My points of disagreement would be the degree of this ministry, and the idea that communion with the bishop of Rome is the sine qua non of Christian communion.

lampstand:

As for the Orthodox supposed claim to greater adherence to tradition, if you really are the church that’s blessed and is acting out what God wants, why do you have so many national and international administrative problems?

Ad hominem. This is like arguing that the RCC is neither blessed nor the True Church because of its clergy sex abuse scandal.

…

lampstand:

Well, I know why, but if you really had something like the Magisterium, would this happen?

With all due respect, your Magisterium didn’t prevent Protestants, sedevacantists, SSPX, Latinization of the Eastern Catholics, atrocities against Protestants and Orthodox (yes, yes, I know the Protestants were worse… but two wrongs don’t make a right), the Western Schism, et al. None of this prevents me from taking the doctrine of Catholicism seriously. I hope and pray that you extend the same courtesy to the Orthodox. [Side note: I think this is the part that cheesed him off the most.]

…

lampstand:

No, you don’t need the clarifying authority of a Pope, even though you have so many sub-churches for each ethnic group that today, in the United States for example, you’ll have several people in the same city calling themselves Bishop of (Name).

Whereas it’s perfectly okay for the Catholics to have a Syrian Patriarch of Antioch, a Melkite Patriarch of Antioch, and a Maronite Patriarch of Antioch. 'Cause that isn’t having a bunch of sub-churches for each ethnic group such that you have several people in the same city calling themselves Bishop of (Name).

(And even though the head of the Coptic Church calls himself Pope. Ahem.

Both the Coptic and Greek Patriarchs of Alexandria hold the title of “Pope.” This title dates back at least to the fourth century, and possibly predates the bishop of Rome’s assumption of the same title. Ahem.

And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment.

May the Lord richly bless you.

 

[Gamera]

Ssssooooo … anybody feel like discussing Sola Scriptura?

 

[Evlogitos]

Me! Me!

Just that nobody answers my questions.

 

[MementoMori3283]

Siiiiiiiigh. I know this is a little off-topic, and I’m always pretty squeamish about raising the issue of private communication, but lampstand’s thrown down the gauntlet. Normally, I wouldn’t say anything–it’s my place to turn the other cheek rather than defend myself–but his comments, taken to their logical extent, give off a bad impression of my Faith, and that’s the one thing that will prick me into some sort of action.

In the interests of Truth, I will simply excerpt a representative sample of our communication. I won’t spin what I said; the readers may judge for themselves. If I did come across as unfair or offensive, please let me know how to avoid doing so in the future, and so I can apologize.

+++++

Soooo, only for future discussions, which Orthodox are you?

 

[Evlogitos]

I guess you’d call me “Eastern” Orthodox (though I’m not a big fan of the appellation). I’m under the Patriarch of Antioch presently (although I was baptized in an OCA church).

 

[MementoMori3283]

I guess you’d call me “Eastern” Orthodox (though I’m not a big fan of the appellation). I’m under the Patriarch of Antioch presently (although I was baptized in an OCA church).

interesting, I never realized that Orthodox Christianity considers the “breaking away” to have been initiated by Rome…Another thread I suppose

 

[po18guy]

In the very last commandment in the Bible God resolutely tells us not to add to nor take away from His Word.

Martin Luther added the German word “Allein” (alone) to Romans. Violence! Martin Luther took away seven books of OT scripture. Violence!

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19)

Is the Lord’s punishment for Luther’s sin the subsequent shattering of Luther’s church into 33,000 disagreeing denominations?

Christ’s peace, if that’s even possible anymore.

 

[Evlogitos]

Indeed another thread, MM, though I’m not sure where you got that idea. We kinda hold it to be a mutual (and extremely tragic) error in judgment.

 

[Gamera]

Okay, here’s my question for anybody who believes in sola scriptura. Can you quote any Christian writer between the close of the Apostolic Age (about 90 AD) until the dawn of the Protestant Reformation (the late 1520’s) who advocated sola scriptura?

It isn’t a trick question. I think Wycliff might have, but I’m not certain about that. However, I’d like to see the replies. Thanks.

 

[brkn1]

Hey there Brkn1

I read your biography on your profile anyone can go and read it.
YOU STATED: "I am a Brother to Anyone who loves Jesus Christ"

Brnk1, and you call yourself a Christian your own words prove that you are not a Christian. Why we must LOVE EVERYONE
not only those who Love Jesus Christ, you must have love for everyone siners or saints, everyone!

For anyone who does not like his brother does not have Christ in them we are all brothers and sisters.

Ufamtobie

But I do love the Lord Jesus with all my heart and I love you if you feel the same. Love involves rebuking error as you believe you are doing here and as I also do which you rebuke me for.
I have not told you that you are unChristian or persecuting of the Church, but you seem to have no problem deciding where I stand with the Lord Jesus.
It does not bother me though, since I know that you probably just said those things out of the natural response fellow Christians might have when they strongly disagree on certain things.
I hope we both are at least in agreement that we love the Lord Jesus Christ with all of our heart in spite of our differences in these other matters, since I see that as the most critical requirement of saving faith.

Your bother in Christ, brkn1

 

[honeysuckle]

I agree completely that this thread should fruitfully discuss the merits and logical consistency of Sola Scriptura. Unfortunately, the Protestants who visit here and post do not do so to rationally debate and discuss theological issues. My impression based on this thread is that they come here fueled by irrational hatred of the Church, and apparently, that hatred prevents them from thinking clearly enough to debate the issues.

But, since it is such an important topic, I will take the position of the educated Protestant and give you some Protestant arguments. Just glancing through this material, it doesn’t look like it’s very cogent, but at least it’s a start.

Here’s a website for Church Fathers who taught Sola Scriptura (according to the Protestant source) bible.ca/sola-scriptura-apostolic-fathers-irenaeus.htm

The earliest quotes from this site are attributed to Irenaeus in 180 AD.

“# 1 “We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed “perfect knowledge,” as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book 3, 1, 1)”

The commentary then instructs the Catholic that this quote should “send shivers down their spine” because the ground and pillar of the faith is described by Irenaeus as Scripture.

Given the quote, I think it’s pretty obvious that it does *not * prove Irenaeus held to Sola Scriptura, only that he acknowledges the authority of Scripture. Of course, we do also.

As for the second sentence, this is obviously taken out of context if it is used to somehow implicate Tradition. I don’t know the context of this text, but it appears as if he is criticizing a heretical teaching, such as Gnosticism. He is arguing that we cannot invalidate the Scriptures on the basis of the argument that the preaching was based on “incomplete knowledge”.

Well, of course not. In what way does that implicate Tradition? It does not; it implicates heresy which teaches the gospel is incomplete and imperfect. Catholics acknowledge that the gospel is complete. We do not say that Tradition improves the gospel, or changes the gospel. Tradition expounds upon Biblical principles.

 

[brkn1]

Martin Luther added the German word “Allein” (alone) to Romans. Violence! Martin Luther took away seven books of OT scripture. Violence!

Is the Lord’s punishment for Luther’s sin the subsequent shattering of Luther’s church into 33,000 disagreeing denominations?

Christ’s peace, if that’s even possible anymore.

Violence indeed, if Scripture is added to or subtracted from. It does seem that some others have no problem making more whole books to add to what God wrote as His Word.

I guess Luther is now the latest “Adam”, whose sin is passed on to any that disagree with your church.

I recall Jesus saying several times in Revelation about His Church: “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churcheS.”

I put emphasis on the last “S” to point out how some churcheS seem to feel that Jesus’ Church should only be described with ONE “S”.
Removing that “S” would be violence too!

 

[honeysuckle]

The seven Churches do not represent seven denominations, they represent groups of people who are at various stages of sanctification. The message to the seven churches is a call to repentance.

Interesting that you would quote Revelation 2:7, as it seems to be a refutation of Sola Fide from the Lord himself.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.”

 

[honeysuckle]

It does seem that some others have no problem making more whole books to add to what God wrote as His Word.

Who are these others, and how do you know that they added to what God wrote?