M
- Status
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Evlogitos
Guest
MM,
The couple paragraphs of blurb on the OCA website are accurate, but paint a murky picture. Obviously, if we Orthodox believe Orthodoxy to be the True Church, then in 1054 Rome divided away from the True Church, which itself cannot be split; this is not to say we do not grieve for the great (even perhaps majority) part our human error played in this division. To quote Bp. Kallistos of Diokletia (emphases mine):
fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/history_timothy_ware_1.htm#n4
The couple paragraphs of blurb on the OCA website are accurate, but paint a murky picture. Obviously, if we Orthodox believe Orthodoxy to be the True Church, then in 1054 Rome divided away from the True Church, which itself cannot be split; this is not to say we do not grieve for the great (even perhaps majority) part our human error played in this division. To quote Bp. Kallistos of Diokletia (emphases mine):
fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/history_timothy_ware_1.htm#n4
U
ufamtobie
Guest
Brkn1,
RE:
I read your biography on your profile anyone can go and read it.
YOU STATED: “I am a Brother to Anyone who loves Jesus Christ”
Brkn1,You must admit that your biography does not sound Christian like. “I am a Brother to Anyone who loves Jesus Christ”
Brkn1, I don’t know who you are, but now through your biography I believe i have a glimps of who you are and that it don’t look right.
Brnk1,"You say you love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart and I love you if you feel the same"
So you are saying if a man or woman does not love the Lord you don’t love that man or woman?
Brkn1, Let me tell you somthing you evidently don’t know about. and that is you must love all people form all walks of life no mater how sinful that person maybe, in doing so that is a true Christian, remember what the Lord said: “The Greatest is LOVE”.
Brkn1, tell me what good is it, if we love our Lord Jesus Christ with all are hearts and hate a brother or sister who do not believe or love Jesus? I tell you the answer and the answer is that person such as yourself is luke warm and God will spit you out of the kingdom of heaven.
Brkn1, You are presecuting the Church and by your own biography that says ** I love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart and I love you if you feel the same** you are unchristian and again, by your own biography it seems to me you are standing on the left hand side of GOD NOT ON HIS RIGHT. cause you love only those who love Jesus and that is wrong. For the Lord said: “If you have done this for the least of my bretheren you have done it to ME”
Please don’t write to me saying that i am juding you, I am not!
like you have stated below. "Love involves rebuking"
Ufamtobie
RE:
I read your biography on your profile anyone can go and read it.
YOU STATED: “I am a Brother to Anyone who loves Jesus Christ”
Brkn1,You must admit that your biography does not sound Christian like. “I am a Brother to Anyone who loves Jesus Christ”
Brkn1, I don’t know who you are, but now through your biography I believe i have a glimps of who you are and that it don’t look right.
Brnk1,"You say you love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart and I love you if you feel the same"
So you are saying if a man or woman does not love the Lord you don’t love that man or woman?
Brkn1, Let me tell you somthing you evidently don’t know about. and that is you must love all people form all walks of life no mater how sinful that person maybe, in doing so that is a true Christian, remember what the Lord said: “The Greatest is LOVE”.
Brkn1, tell me what good is it, if we love our Lord Jesus Christ with all are hearts and hate a brother or sister who do not believe or love Jesus? I tell you the answer and the answer is that person such as yourself is luke warm and God will spit you out of the kingdom of heaven.
Brkn1, You are presecuting the Church and by your own biography that says ** I love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart and I love you if you feel the same** you are unchristian and again, by your own biography it seems to me you are standing on the left hand side of GOD NOT ON HIS RIGHT. cause you love only those who love Jesus and that is wrong. For the Lord said: “If you have done this for the least of my bretheren you have done it to ME”
Please don’t write to me saying that i am juding you, I am not!
like you have stated below. "Love involves rebuking"
Ufamtobie
po18guy
Well-known member
You go Gamera!
Sola Scriptura is man-made by Luther. He both added to scripture, and took away from it, in direct disobedience to God’s command in Revelation. Great darkness began to creep into the Body of Christ on that day. It shattered Christ into pieces and His Sacred Body has become almost unrecognizable today. It is no longer the Jews or the Romans who crucify Christ - it has become the Christians! Praise God in Heaven that He alone founded One Church which will never change. Thank you Lord!
F
Fisher
Guest
He said he is a brother to a brother who is a son.
John 12.But as many as received him,** to them gave he power to become the sons of God,** even to them that believe on his name:
13.Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
We are to love everyone but we are not all are sons.
F
Fisher
Guest
“Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” I have no problem with tradition if it lines up with the bible.
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.”
003:003 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
003:004 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
003:005 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
In Hebrews 10:8-14 is a very clear pronouncement from God that when Christ died on the cross, that did away with all other sacrifices. It reads:
“Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt-offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest .standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered** one sacrifice for sins for ever**, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”
Then in the following verses the Lord reminds us of the promise in the Old Testament that He would make a. new covenant with men, that He would put the law in their hearts and minds, and He says: “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin” (Heb. 10:17,18).
“According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. **For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” **
Heb001:001 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
001:002 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
001:003 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,** when he had by himself **purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
Lord, now indeed I find
Thy power and Thine alone,
Can change the leper’s spots
And melt the heart of stone.
- The Bible plainly forbids making any image for worship and bowing down to any image.
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.”
- The Scriptures command that “a bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife…” (I Tim. 3:2).
003:003 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
003:004 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
003:005 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
In Hebrews 10:8-14 is a very clear pronouncement from God that when Christ died on the cross, that did away with all other sacrifices. It reads:
“Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt-offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest .standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered** one sacrifice for sins for ever**, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”
Then in the following verses the Lord reminds us of the promise in the Old Testament that He would make a. new covenant with men, that He would put the law in their hearts and minds, and He says: “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin” (Heb. 10:17,18).
“According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. **For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” **
Heb001:001 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
001:002 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
001:003 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,** when he had by himself **purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
Lord, now indeed I find
Thy power and Thine alone,
Can change the leper’s spots
And melt the heart of stone.
G
Gamera
Guest
The husband of one wife, as opposed to multiple wives. There was no requirement that a bishop be married as opposed to being single, only that he not be a polygamist. I doubt that any Protestant seriously thinks that Rev. Billy Graham, the day after he lost his precious wife a year or two ago, thereby became disqualified to preach and should’ve stepped down. Or do you think that? In any event, priestly celibacy isn’t a doctrine, it is just a custom of the Latin Rite portion of the Catholic Church. Some Catholic priests are married, did you know that?
Do you think Catholics disagree? We believe every word of that passage.
Now let me quote you one. “Through him then let us continually offer a SACRIFICE of praise,” Heb 13:15. What does this verse mean to you? Isn’t Jesus’ sacrifice enough?
This isn’t in the Bible! I thought you believed in sola scriptura!!
E
Evlogitos
Guest
L
living_water
Guest
And yet, a few chapters later, the Bible commands the making of graven images. (Exodus 25:18-21)
Does the Bible contradict itself, or do you miss the point of Exodus 20:4? Is the prohibition against physically creating any graven image (we know it cannot be) and physically gesturing, or is the prohibition against idolatry?
And if the prohibition is against idolatry, is it not true that the sin of idolatry is commited in the heart, and would it not follow that the intention of the person who bows before an image must be known before one can accuse him or her of idolatry? Would it be fair to accuse a person of idolatry if they visited the grave of their grandmother and kissed their gravestone? Or, would you understand intuitively that they were honoring their grandmother, and this was quite different than worship?
The subject of idolatry, however, is interesting. We tend to become quite confused in this culture about its meaning. We think idolatry means statutes, and miss the masses of people who idolize ideas, relationships, careers, television programs, comptuer games, on a daily basis.
If idolatry is an abstract concept that describes what goes on in a person’s heart, rather than being descriptive of an image per se, do you think it is possible to idolize written text?
B
brkn1
Guest
I will not disagree with you about idolatry being something that involves more than our giving ourselves over to an immoderate attachment, devotion, or veneration to an object or image.
It can also be applied to an immoderate involvement with just about any worldly idea, relationship, careers, etc. as you pointed out.
Your use of (Exodus 25:18-21) describes an image which is biblically commanded by God to be made. That command does not give anyone the right to then invent a non-biblically specified image, which the Bible expressly commands us NOT to do in (Exodus 20:4).
Our God describes Himself as a jealous God, when anyone should dare bow themselves down to any image not expressly commanded to be made by God. You are on very shaky ground when using the Bible to defend such invented-by-man images.
E
Evlogitos
Guest
Where exactly does Exodus 20:4 say that “Biblically permitted” images (which is an anachronism, since not one book of the Bible even existed at the time!!! 
) are allowed?
Here’s what Exodus 20:4-5 says:
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
Notice that there are no exceptions given. It says “no making images.” It doesn’t say “unless they’re the sort of images I later command y’all to make.”
Now, it seems to me that there are just two ways to read this:
(1) Absolutely no images permitted that are a likeness of anything that exists in heaven, earth, or water. This would mean that basically every Christian in history is an idolater. This would also make God contradict Himself, since He subsequently, at various times in history, commands images in the likeness of various angelic and earthly entities.
(2) Any images are permitted, so long as they are not adored as gods and served as idols. I think this is by far the more reasonable interpretation.
There is quite a bit of latitude given in Scripture to holy images; for example, King David exhorted the Israelites to bow before the Ark of the Covenant. There is also quite a bit of latitude toward images in places of worship, as we can see from early Christian-era Jewish synagogues (see here for an example), which are positively dripping with depictions of cherubim, as well as various Old Testament holy men and holy events.
Thus we see that it’s not images in themselves that are bad, nor even how we treat them, but rather why we treat them a certain way.
And so let’s bring the discussion full circle, to icons in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. The issue is simple: Do the Catholics and Orthodox give adoration to images and serve them in the same manner as they should with God? Now, Protestants who have not actually bothered to delve deeply into Catholic doctrine will say “of course!” But anyone well-informed and thoughtful will soon discover that we do not treat icons the same way we do God.
We treat icons with respect and honour, because they are holy, and because we wish to show respect for the holy men, women, and events that they represent. That is all.
For all you patriotic Protestant Americans out there, think of when you take your hat off and put your hand over your heart to salute the American flag. You even swear fealty to this cloth image of red, white, and blue! (“I pledge allegiance to the flag…”) Are you, then, worshiping the image of the flag? How would you respond if accused of idolatry for this practice?
If I kiss an icon of Christ, I know the icon is not Christ himself; but out of a desire to worship Christ with all my senses, I set my eyes upon the image of the Saviour, and pay honour to His image. Christ Himself is worthy of adoration and worship, yet He is the image of the invisible God (Coloss. 1:15). Surely those who bowed down at the feet of this incarnate Image were not idolaters! How much less, then, should we castigate those who merely pay honour to the holy images out of a desire to help set their minds on heaven!
To any Protestant who’s read this far: Before drawing yourself up in umbrage and banging out a heated reply, heed the words of the Scriptures: " A wise man will hear and increase learning;" “the heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge;” “good understanding gains favour.”
As such, I challenge one and all, before replying, to thoughtfully and carefully read what we Catholics and Orthodox really believe about the holy images, as expressed in the Apologia of John of Damascus. If you aren’t interested in giving us a fair and reasonable treatment, then we’re all basically wasting our breath here. If you are interested in giving us a fair and reasonable treatment, it is wise and prudent to know what we really teach and believe, and thus y’all will take the time to read it.
Pax,
–Seraphim
) are allowed?Here’s what Exodus 20:4-5 says:
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
Notice that there are no exceptions given. It says “no making images.” It doesn’t say “unless they’re the sort of images I later command y’all to make.”
Now, it seems to me that there are just two ways to read this:
(1) Absolutely no images permitted that are a likeness of anything that exists in heaven, earth, or water. This would mean that basically every Christian in history is an idolater. This would also make God contradict Himself, since He subsequently, at various times in history, commands images in the likeness of various angelic and earthly entities.
(2) Any images are permitted, so long as they are not adored as gods and served as idols. I think this is by far the more reasonable interpretation.
There is quite a bit of latitude given in Scripture to holy images; for example, King David exhorted the Israelites to bow before the Ark of the Covenant. There is also quite a bit of latitude toward images in places of worship, as we can see from early Christian-era Jewish synagogues (see here for an example), which are positively dripping with depictions of cherubim, as well as various Old Testament holy men and holy events.
Thus we see that it’s not images in themselves that are bad, nor even how we treat them, but rather why we treat them a certain way.
And so let’s bring the discussion full circle, to icons in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. The issue is simple: Do the Catholics and Orthodox give adoration to images and serve them in the same manner as they should with God? Now, Protestants who have not actually bothered to delve deeply into Catholic doctrine will say “of course!” But anyone well-informed and thoughtful will soon discover that we do not treat icons the same way we do God.
We treat icons with respect and honour, because they are holy, and because we wish to show respect for the holy men, women, and events that they represent. That is all.
For all you patriotic Protestant Americans out there, think of when you take your hat off and put your hand over your heart to salute the American flag. You even swear fealty to this cloth image of red, white, and blue! (“I pledge allegiance to the flag…”) Are you, then, worshiping the image of the flag? How would you respond if accused of idolatry for this practice?
If I kiss an icon of Christ, I know the icon is not Christ himself; but out of a desire to worship Christ with all my senses, I set my eyes upon the image of the Saviour, and pay honour to His image. Christ Himself is worthy of adoration and worship, yet He is the image of the invisible God (Coloss. 1:15). Surely those who bowed down at the feet of this incarnate Image were not idolaters! How much less, then, should we castigate those who merely pay honour to the holy images out of a desire to help set their minds on heaven!
To any Protestant who’s read this far: Before drawing yourself up in umbrage and banging out a heated reply, heed the words of the Scriptures: " A wise man will hear and increase learning;" “the heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge;” “good understanding gains favour.”
As such, I challenge one and all, before replying, to thoughtfully and carefully read what we Catholics and Orthodox really believe about the holy images, as expressed in the Apologia of John of Damascus. If you aren’t interested in giving us a fair and reasonable treatment, then we’re all basically wasting our breath here. If you are interested in giving us a fair and reasonable treatment, it is wise and prudent to know what we really teach and believe, and thus y’all will take the time to read it.
Pax,
–Seraphim
G
Gamera
Guest
I’ll never understand where some of our non-Catholic friends are going with this. It’s like accusing me of adultery because I’ve got my wife’s picture in my wallet, and I should be thinking of my wife, not of her picture.
A “graven image” was not just any carved image, but an image thought to be alive. Catholics don’t think our statutes are alive. Therefore they don’t constitute graven images, any more than the photo in my wallet constitutes “another woman.”
A “graven image” was not just any carved image, but an image thought to be alive. Catholics don’t think our statutes are alive. Therefore they don’t constitute graven images, any more than the photo in my wallet constitutes “another woman.”
M
MementoMori3283
Guest
have you done any research on the schism?
E
Evlogitos
Guest
I have.
M
MementoMori3283
Guest
anything you can transmit - I thought more had to do with the “entourages” and the mode of communication utilized 1,000 years ago than the actual disagreement…
A
Arry_Mate
Guest
Wonderful!
E
Evlogitos
Guest
I’m not sure I take your meaning. I mean, Humbert was obviously a pretty arrogant man, and Cerularius was fairly undiplomatic as well, and East and West were busy antagonizing one another. Basically, everybody on every side behaved pretty childishly, and now we’re reaping the fruits thereof.
I mean, to quickly sum up the Normans persecuted the Greek churches in Itay; Cerularius retaliated against the Latin churches in Constantinople, then took a more conciliatory attitude toward Rome; Rome sent three jackasses; Cerularius was petulant and declined to negotiate; Humbert high-handedly laid a bull of excommunication on the altar of Hagia Sophia (which among other ludicrous things accused the Greeks of sinning by omitting the Filioque); Cerularius excommunicated Humbert and Co.; the crusaders set up Latin patriarchs in Jerusalem and Antioch; much mutual antagonism, including harsh reprisals against Latin rioters in Constantinople; and the final and horrible sack of Constantinople which effectively and permanently cemented the schism.
But anyway, we’re off topic by any standard, so I’ll stop there.
I mean, to quickly sum up the Normans persecuted the Greek churches in Itay; Cerularius retaliated against the Latin churches in Constantinople, then took a more conciliatory attitude toward Rome; Rome sent three jackasses; Cerularius was petulant and declined to negotiate; Humbert high-handedly laid a bull of excommunication on the altar of Hagia Sophia (which among other ludicrous things accused the Greeks of sinning by omitting the Filioque); Cerularius excommunicated Humbert and Co.; the crusaders set up Latin patriarchs in Jerusalem and Antioch; much mutual antagonism, including harsh reprisals against Latin rioters in Constantinople; and the final and horrible sack of Constantinople which effectively and permanently cemented the schism.
But anyway, we’re off topic by any standard, so I’ll stop there.
L
living_water
Guest
Please make sure to read the reply that Evlogitos has given you. I cannot improve on that response. (He is amazingly astute for his age and engaging you in sincere dialog.)
God did not command us to bow down to His images but not to man-made images. That is a wooden, literal interpretation of the text that strips the spirit from the commandments of God. God commands us to worship Him rather than the self. The use of images in a religious context is irrelevant; the intention of the worshiper is what is critical.
You may recall that a major theme of the ministry of Christ was to open the eyes of the Jewish sects of the time to the spirit of the law. Here we have the same principle. Rather than focusing on the letter of the law, we need to understand why the law was given, and follow it in spirit, rather than in letter.
No images are inherently prohibited from use in a religious context on the basis of the fact that they are images. We are prohibited from worshiping images, not using them for their intended symbolic purposes.
B
brkn1
Guest
Yes wonderful, but I have a different interpretation of the meaning when using “wonder” here.
L
living_water
Guest
What is your response to this, may I ask, once again? There has not been one relevant response to the issues presented here.
Fundamentalists, do you know who Bart Ehram is? For people who think, and who therefore care about what is true, the Fundamentalist interpretation of the Scriptures is like mixing fire and oil. It is dangerous. If you are an intellectually curious person, you are in danger of following the path of Bart Ehram, who studied at the Moody Bible Institute and Princeton, and is now a professor of religious studies.
Bart Ehram made a god out of the Bible. He never truly understood what “the revelation of God” meant, and was never capable of seeing the Bible in the way God intended us to see His revelation. Like you, he limited all truth to the Bible, and held it to subjective standardsof perfection, consistency and inerrancy that distort the inerrant power of interpretation given to the Church. He idolized the Bible, and his story is a warning to those who follow this path.
He found no basis for his beliefs through careful objective research and study, and therefore abandoned Fundamentalist Christianity, and even a belief in deity, becoming agnostic. I believe his wife may be Catholic, I am not sure about that.
His problem was not that he proved the Bible is untrue. His problem was that he missed the point of truth.
- Status