Sola Scriptura

[Seeking_God]

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Since the other “seed” of the woman represents believers (Saints of the Tribulation), the man child also represents the many believers of the Church.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the
commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The man child nation is delivered, or caught up to God, before the travail, (the time of trouble, the tribulation, the Day of the Lord).

Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a
nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb?
saith thy God.

Christianity is a “nation”.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;

“Lights/Christians” are not in “Darkness/Day of Lord/tribulation!”

[Mat 5:14] Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
[Phil 2:15] That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

[John 8:12] Then spoke Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

[Amos 5:18] Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
[Amos 5:20] Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

[Joel 2:1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:
for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
[Joel 2:2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
[Joel 2:31] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD
come.

[Mat 24:21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever
shall be.
[Zeph 1:15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of waste and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

[1Thess 5:4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[1Thess 5:5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

[Col 1:12] Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[Col 1:13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

So, another reason why Christians of the present age are not in that darkness, when Satan will have dominion, is:

[Mat 12:25] And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to
desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
[Mark 3:24] And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

We cannot effectively pray against Satan taking power, when God gives Satan power. It will be tough for the tribulation saints, God lets them be killed.

[Rev 13:10] He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity: he that kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

[Rev 14:12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
[Rev 14:13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them

 

[Seeking_God]

Noah and Lot as examples of deliverance!

The Rapture is compared to Noah’s and Lot’s time when people are caught unaware going about their daily lives. Peter describes Noah and Lot as examples of the rapture, stressing deliverance.

2Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pet 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pet 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pet 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with
their unlawful deeds
2Pet 2:9 The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

(The day of judgment is the day of the Lord, the time of trouble, the tribulation, the time of wrath, the time of testing, the
time of temptation.)

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they
built;
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The wicked people will be taking no notice, eating and drinking, before the rapture happens. People eating, drinking, and
feasting at marriage parties does not describe the tribulation, when famine will come upon the earth. See Rev 6:5-8, 18:8

One taken (in the rapture); the other left (behind in tribulation).

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Gathered to the body of the Lord, as Eagles

Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Where soever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:28 For where soever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[Seeking_God]

Not knowing the day or the hour.

The Feast of Trumpets happens on the “new moon”, which is 29.5 days after the last one, meaning it might occur on the 29th or 30th day, nobody knows for sure. “Of that day or hour no man knows” is an expression referring to this feast, and thus, the rapture.

“Of that day or hour no man knows, but my Father only” is an expression used by a groom when asked when he will go and steal away his bride like a thief in the night. He says this because it is his Father that will tell him when
his preparations on the bridal chamber are completed and it is time.

Since the Feast of Trumpets is the “wedding of the Messiah”, then this expression about “not knowing the day or the hour” refers to the rapture, and means that the rapture must take place on a Feast of Trumpets.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the
Father.
Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Mar 13:34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the
cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Thus, not knowing the day or the hour is a parable, and, as all parables, is designed to prevent unbelievers from understanding the meaning. See Matthew 13:10-17.

The reality is that believers WILL and CAN know the time, because this phrase indicates the Feast of Trumpets. Other verses on this topic plainly declare that not knowing is a punishment for the wicked servant:

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delays his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looked not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing
of teeth.

Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delays his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and
maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looks not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and
will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Since “not knowing what hour” is the punishment for not watching and a punishment for the unfaithful servant, it does not apply to faithful believers. And other scriptures confirm that we will know the hour:

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of
salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The Lord comes for his bride as a thief in the night to take her away in the marriage.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would
have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Luk 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Luk 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

Luk 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have
watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
Luk 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Because the “day or hour no man knows” refers to the marriage at the Feast of Trumpets, and because not knowing is a punishment for the evil servant, and because we are to “know perfectly”, and because “we are not in darkness”, then we can watch and be ready, because we DO KNOW when the thief will come. Like the good man of the house, we should “be therefore ready”.

 

[Seeking_God]

Those who deny the pretribulation rapture are like the evil servant, they say something else; they say the master will delay his coming until after the tribulation. (Luke 12:45, Mat 24:48) and they are NOT watching for him now (Rev 3:3).

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

We look forward to Christ’s appearing and return.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws
nigh.
Titus 2:13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;

Phil 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second
time without sin unto salvation.
Heb 12:1 …let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our
faith

 

[Seeking_God]

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

We do not look for, nor are told to look for, Satan’s appearing, nor the tribulation to appear.

In fact, we are told to specifically avoid looking for Jesus’ physical appearing or return. The reason to avoid looking for Christ’s physical appearing is because the AntiChrist will appear physically and claim to be Christ, from 2 Thess 2.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it
were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Thus, we have a paradox. We look for Christ’s return, but are told not to believe it if we hear he has returned, or someone claims to be Him. This mystery is solved through the pre tribulation rapture, which preceeds the appearance of the antichrist in the seven year tribulation.

By the time the Lord Jesus Christ arrives at the end of the seven year tribulation, everyone on earth will suddenly know who the Lord is without question, because he will destroy the antichrist with the “brightness of his
coming” (2 Thess 2:8), and every person will “look upon the one whom they pierced” (Zechariah 12:10, Revelation 1:7, John 19:37).

We know that Jesus will appear physically at the second coming (Rev. 19 & Zech 14), despite the warnings against believing a physical appearing of a false christ in Matthew.

Zech 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zech 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

More scriptures emphasizing Christians wait for and look to Christ’s return and not the appearance of the AntiChrist.

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. [In Aramaic the expression
Come, O Lord is Maranatha]

 

[Seeking_God]

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waits for the precious fruitof the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draws near.
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge stands before the door.

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst
come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Revelation 22:20 He which testifies these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from
you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Will Christians REALLY be spared the Tribulation?

[Pss 97:10] Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

[Rom 5:8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[Rom 5:9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
[Rom 5:10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

[Isa 57:1] The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the
righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

Mic 7:2 The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they
hunt every man his brother with a net.

[Mal 3:16] Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of
remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
[Mal 3:17] And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
[Mal 3:18] Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him
that serveth him not.
[Mal 4:1] For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be
stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

[2Tim 4:18] And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Seeking_God]

More “Rapture” verses:

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, (NIV)
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (KJV)

2 Corinthians 5:1-21.
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, un-rebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his
appearing and his kingdom;
2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1 Peter 1:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be
found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand
the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported
unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at
the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fades not away.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed
before him at his coming.

1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the
world knows us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.

 

[brkn1]

Brother brkn1,

<1>-Does it bother you that, before at least 367 A.D., it was impossible to stay strictly within the Scriptures to do Christians reasoning? Why or why not?

<2>-Does it bother you that there was no such thing as purely Biblical reasoning before 95 A.D., when the last book of the New Testament was written? Why or why not?

There are many extensive commentaries on the books of Scripture in both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches, sometimes dating back over fifteen hundred years ago to the Early Church. For example, Ephrem of Syria (306-373AD) wrote commentaries on the Gospels, and on the first five books of the Old Testament. Cyril of Alexandria (378-444AD) wrote famous commentaries on the Old Testament, and the Gospel of John. (I believe you can read an English translation on the latter here.) Gregory of Nyssa (335-~400AD) wrote a commentary on the Song of Solomon. All of these are recognized and “approved” by both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

As to where I plan to go with the Q&A: I am interested in how you, as a Protestant, view certain historical facts and reconcile them with your faith. I love learning, and exchanging ideas, so I’m really curious as to what your response is. As such, because I’m keeping an open mind at this point, I decline to state what I believe the answers should be, 'til I hear your perspective.

As you suggest, I am indeed a sinful but devoted follower of, and believer in, Jesus Christ. I am a Bible-believing Christian who does his best to keep to the same Faith that Jesus gave to the Apostles.

I will try to answer some of your questions starting at:

<1>…It does not bother me at all that it was impossible for anyone to stay strictly within the Scriptures to do reasoning at that time.

The simple gospel of Jesus Christ does not require much at all in the way of reasoning to be effectual to a sincere seeker of God and His Salvation.
A good example of this would be the thief on the cross that managed to get saved by God, in spite of the pain and short time left to accomplish this.
Another example, of the effective simple gospel of Jesus Christ, would be what happened after Peter exhorted the people with the simple gospel, and the Lord added about three thousand souls to the church from those who gladly received it.

What more Scripture is necessary, if the simple gospel was adequate? Human reasoning does not do any of the work anyway. Salvation is strictly God’s work. Human reasoning would be prone to causing the opposite result, which is non-belief in the simple gospel.
It looks as if my answer is the same for question <2> also.

The gospel does not have to be written to be effective.
If you plan to use this fact as a defense for human traditions, it will fall on deaf ears in my case. There is a filter on my mind when it comes to the gospel. Whatever is claimed as gospel (oral or written) had better line up with the dependable written Word of God, or I reject it outright. No open mind in this department.

The parts of Scripture that give a clearer revelation of God’s Will and Glory are a bonus to those given an opportunity to meditate on such revelations, but they are not necessary for God to save anyone, as my examples demonstrate.

 

[po18guy]

Yes, prove it. I will prove the RCC is in denial of Bible Prophecy

Matthew 24:21-23 (New International Version)Protestant bible, FYI.For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it."

Christ says the days of tribulation will be shortened. Not eliminated. He warned of false prophets. Biblical prophets can fall into the same trap.

Mark 13:14-20 "When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that this will not take place in winter, because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Ditto for Mark. Where does Christ say that you can avoid the tribulation? He warned about following false prophets. As valid today as it was then.

The source you cite: Does he give those books away, or is he making a living off of them? I am sure that the two of you are absolutely sincere. 2,000 years of theologians also say that you are wrong. Pray you are not dead wrong.

 

[po18guy]

More “Rapture” verses:

Same verses that my bibles have. “Rapture” as either a word or concept appears nowhere in the bible. Lots of end times scripture, though. Let’s look at how God has acted in the past:

Noah and his family. The sinners of earth were taken in the flood. The just were “left behind”.

And in Sodom: The evil ones were taken by fire and sulphur. Lot and his daughters were “left behind”.

God takes the sinners and leaves “behind” the righteous. I expect you to reply with all sorts of verses that read just like my bibles, and “expert” names, but they’re all making money selling this stuff. How come the rapture concept occurred nowhere on earth until 1800s America? Same country, same century as: Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Latter Day Saints and the Seventh Day Adventists, to mention a few.

Sorry. It is not biblical.

 

[Evlogitos]

Brother brkn1,

Your conclusion seems to be that Scripture need not be the sole source of the Gospel, but rather that oral tradition may be employed so long as it does not contradict the Gospel or the Scriptures. This seems to me like a good solid logical conclusion.

So, my next question is: How do you know whether or not a given idea or practice contradicts the Scriptures?

For example: take baptism. Three questions come to mind: (1) What does baptism do, or represent? (2) Is baptism normally necessary for salvation? (3) Who may be baptized?

Bible-believing Christians are split into five basic groups on this matter:

1. Baptism, which is done by immersion or sprinkling of water, sacramentally remits the sins of the baptized. As such, it is normally necessary for salvation. Infants may be baptized. The Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and a few other groups accept this concept.
2. Baptism, which is done by immersion or sprinkling of water, sacramentally remits the sins of the baptized. As such, it is normally necessary for salvation. Infants may not be baptized; adult believers only. This view is held by several prominent nondenominational groups, as well as a few lesser-known “Apostolic” and restorationist groups.
3. Baptism, which is done by immersion or sprinkling of water, is a symbol of obedience and commitment. As such, it is not necessary for salvation, though recommended. Infants may be baptized. The Presbyterians and Methodists hold this view, along with a few other groups.
4. Baptism, which is done by immersion or sprinkling of water, is a symbol of obedience and commitment. As such, it is not necessary for salvation, though recommended. Infants may not be baptized; adult believers only. This is the position of the Baptists and most of the Evangelicals and nondenominationals.
5. Baptism by any physical act is not performed. No external baptism is necessary or expedient for salvation. Generally, the external ordinance is replaced with a personal “spirit baptism” experience. The Quakers and many Pentecostals endorse this view.

All of these groups will argue that their view is in perfect harmony with the Scriptures, while other views contradict the Scriptures. The vast majority of these groups will use Scripture alone to make their claims. But they can’t all be right! Either baptism remits sin, or it doesn’t. Either infant baptism is okay, or it isn’t. Either water is to be used for baptism, or it isn’t. Can’t have it both ways.

A. So if, as you say, Scripture “gives a clearer revelation of God’s will,” why don’t all the faithful, reasonable, and Bible-believing Christians believe exactly the same thing about as universal a subject as baptism?

B. Since you all use the same exact Scriptures to reach dramatically different conclusions, how are you going to tell which view is the true and correct one? Why should an external observer conclude that your view is right, instead of the other guys’?

C. While we all agree that the Scriptures are true and dependable, it’s equally obvious that five faithful people can read the Scriptures and pull out ten mutually contradictory doctrines. Doesn’t this suggest that perhaps, while Scripture is dependable, perhaps personal, subjective interpretation of Scripture is not?

D. Since you admit that the authoritative and true Gospel was transmitted orally to the believers before Scripture was written or finalized, is it possible that the authoritative and true interpretation and doctrine of the Gospel was transmitted orally to the believers as well? Why or why not?

Interesting conversation. Thanks for your answers thus far.

 

[po18guy]

More “Rapture” verses:

And, these all have something to do with one another? It is easier to solve a Rubiks’ cube. How are the simple, like me to be saved? Can’t I just yell something in front of witnesses?

 

[Seeking_God]

How are the simple, like me to be saved? Can’t I just yell something in front of witnesses?

To be saved.? There is nothing you can do. It is what God does!!!

Jesus took our place on the cross. To give us a place in Heaven

Romans 10:9-11That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture says, whosoever believes upon Jesus shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

Jesus Christ died on the Cross and rose from the grave. He paid the penalty for our sin and bridged the gap between God and people.

God says…

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” 1 Timothy 2:5

“For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.” 1 Peter 3:18

“But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Jesus Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8

“If we walk in the Light, as Jesus is in the Light, we have fellowship one with another, for the Blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleans us from all Sin.” I John 1:7

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

 

[po18guy]

To be saved.? There is nothing you can do. It is what God does!!!

Jesus took our place on the cross. To give us a place in Heaven

Romans 10:9-11That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture says, whosoever believes upon Jesus shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

Jesus Christ died on the Cross and rose from the grave. He paid the penalty for our sin and bridged the gap between God and people.

God says…

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” 1 Timothy 2:5

“For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.” 1 Peter 3:18

“But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Jesus Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8

“If we walk in the Light, as Jesus is in the Light, we have fellowship one with another, for the Blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleans us from all Sin.” I John 1:7

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

Dude! I’ve read it all. I believe it all. Been “born again” and I have a personal relationship with Jesus. Pretty cool, huh? And, more than that, I eat His Body and drink His Blood. Talk about a personal relationship! It’s amazing! I’d like to tell you about it.

 

[Gamera]

Seeking God, you seem to have missed my post (118) so here it is again.

No, that isn’t “the Rapture” at all. 1 Thess 4:17 says we will be caught up in the air to GREET the Lord when He comes back — not to be taken away by Him! Just like the five wise maidens went out to GREET the bridegroom in the parable of the Wise and Foolish Maidens (Matthew chapter 25), then went back inside with the Bridegroom and shut the door, excluding the five foolish maidens from the wedding feast. 1 Thess 4:17 says we shall rise in the air to greet Jesus, not to be taken away by Him. “The Rapture” is a false man-made doctrine which claims Jesus will pluck us away from this world. It isn’t described at all in Scripture, “clearly” or otherwise.

I notice that you since have quoted Matthew 25 yourself. Read the text – the five wise maidens go outside to greet the Bridegroom, but he doesn’t take them away. Rather, he goes back inside with them. Just like we will be caught up in the air to GREET Jesus when He returns, not to be “raptured” away by Him.

 

[po18guy]

Seeking God, you seem to have missed my post (118) so here it is again.

I notice that you since have quoted Matthew 25 yourself. Read the text – the five wise maidens go outside to greet the Bridegroom, but he doesn’t take them away. Rather, he goes back inside with them. Just like we will be caught up in the air to GREET Jesus when He returns, not to be “raptured” away by Him.

Amen! Amen! Amen! I wish these “bible” Christians would actually read it instead of just thumping it! Then, after careful reflection, they might attempt a reasoned discussion, realizing that they, as do we, have much to learn.

Christ’s peace.

 

[brkn1]

No, that isn’t “the Rapture” at all. 1 Thess 4:17 says we will be caught up in the air to GREET the Lord when He comes back — not to be taken away by Him! Just like the five wise maidens went out to GREET the bridegroom in the parable of the Wise and Foolish Maidens (Matthew chapter 25), then went back inside with the Bridegroom and shut the door, excluding the five foolish maidens from the wedding feast. 1 Thess 4:17 says we shall rise in the air to greet Jesus, not to be taken away by Him. “The Rapture” is a false man-made doctrine which claims Jesus will pluck us away from this world. It isn’t described at all in Scripture, “clearly” or otherwise.

The Maidens are not described as brides.
You might look up Jewish traditions to understand who the maidens represent.
I’m pretty sure it is not talking about brides, since polygamy was not allowed in Jesus’ time.

 

[Seeking_God]

Seeking God, you seem to have missed my post (118) so here it is again.

I notice that you since have quoted Matthew 25 yourself. Read the text – the five wise maidens go outside to greet the Bridegroom, but he doesn’t take them away. Rather, he goes back inside with them. Just like we will be caught up in the air to GREET Jesus when He returns, not to be “raptured” away by Him.

I did not miss your post. The five who waited and watched for Jesus do in fact GREET Jesus. Jesus takes 5 inside with Him. Jesus is The Bridegroom, agreed!!!

No we have 10 bridesmaids. 5 who watched and waited for Jesus to return and were taken to the wedding Feast of The Lord (The Rapture). The other five are left. Why? Read what happens to the five foolish Brides, again.

Matthew 25:1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8And **the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. **
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

This parable is the same teaching as:
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:37And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

After 7 years of Tribulation, notice how Jesus returns to earth.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from
you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Pretty cool, huh? And, more than that, I eat His Body and drink His Blood

We should give Jesus thanks and praise everytime we sit to have a meal. Break bread and give God Thanks, Praise and Glory in Remenberence of His Ressurrection because He paid the penalty for our sins.

Do you really believe an Almighty God, who created the universe and everything in it in 6 days, who took our place on the cross.
To give us a place in Heaven, would require we believe in a wafer to save us, rather than trusting solely on the Name and Word of Jesus our Messiah to save us? To be "born again’ means we are no longer under the law of sin or the punishment sin requires.

This does not give one the excuse to sin as much as one wants
nor neglect Bible reading or Prayers, bot pray then go to a confessioal, Confess to a priest and all is forgivin’

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9.

Our redemption was accomplished solely by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, who was made to be sin and a curse for us, dying in our room and stead; and that no repentance, no feeling, no faith, no good resolutions, no sincere efforts, no submission to the rules and regulations of any church, nor all the churches that have existed since the days of the Apostles can add in the very least degree to the value of the blood, or to the merit of the finished work wrought for us by Him who united in His person true and proper deity with perfect and sinless humanity.

The problem I see nere with the RCC is that it teaches: Faith+good works. A system where one earns or merits one’s way to Heaven is mans teaching. The Bible says we are saved to do good works. Since we are flesh. yes we will sin. We are not perfect, we will make mistakes. That is why, Jesus ceases not to intercede and advocate for the saved (Eph. 1:22–23; Heb. 7:25; 1 John 2:1).

All regenerated are called with a holy calling, to walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, and so to live in the power of the indwelling Spirit that we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. But the flesh with its fallen, Adamic nature, which in this life is never eradicated, being with us to the end of our earthly pilgrimage, needs to be kept by the Spirit constantly in subjection to Jesus Christ, or it will surely manifest its presence in our lives to the dishonor of our Lord.

Romans6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans10:9-11That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture says, whosoever believes upon Jesus shall not be ashamed.

Romans10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.

 

[brkn1]

Brother brkn1,

Your conclusion seems to be that Scripture need not be the sole source of the Gospel, but rather that oral tradition may be employed so long as it does not contradict the Gospel or the Scriptures. This seems to me like a good solid logical conclusion.

So, my next question is: How do you know whether or not a given idea or practice contradicts the Scriptures?

For example: take baptism. Three questions come to mind: (1) What does baptism do, or represent? (2) Is baptism normally necessary for salvation? (3) Who may be baptized?

Bible-believing Christians are split into five basic groups on this matter:

1. Baptism, which is done by immersion or sprinkling of water, sacramentally remits the sins of the baptized. As such, it is normally necessary for salvation. Infants may be baptized. The Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and a few other groups accept this concept.
2. Baptism, which is done by immersion or sprinkling of water, sacramentally remits the sins of the baptized. As such, it is normally necessary for salvation. Infants may not be baptized; adult believers only. This view is held by several prominent nondenominational groups, as well as a few lesser-known “Apostolic” and restorationist groups.
3. Baptism, which is done by immersion or sprinkling of water, is a symbol of obedience and commitment. As such, it is not necessary for salvation, though recommended. Infants may be baptized. The Presbyterians and Methodists hold this view, along with a few other groups.
4. Baptism, which is done by immersion or sprinkling of water, is a symbol of obedience and commitment. As such, it is not necessary for salvation, though recommended. Infants may not be baptized; adult believers only. This is the position of the Baptists and most of the Evangelicals and nondenominationals.
5. Baptism by any physical act is not performed. No external baptism is necessary or expedient for salvation. Generally, the external ordinance is replaced with a personal “spirit baptism” experience. The Quakers and many Pentecostals endorse this view.

All of these groups will argue that their view is in perfect harmony with the Scriptures, while other views contradict the Scriptures. The vast majority of these groups will use Scripture alone to make their claims. But they can’t all be right! Either baptism remits sin, or it doesn’t. Either infant baptism is okay, or it isn’t. Either water is to be used for baptism, or it isn’t. Can’t have it both ways.

A. So if, as you say, Scripture “gives a clearer revelation of God’s will,” why don’t all the faithful, reasonable, and Bible-believing Christians believe exactly the same thing about as universal a subject as baptism?

B. Since you all use the same exact Scriptures to reach dramatically different conclusions, how are you going to tell which view is the true and correct one? Why should an external observer conclude that your view is right, instead of the other guys’?

C. While we all agree that the Scriptures are true and dependable, it’s equally obvious that five faithful people can read the Scriptures and pull out ten mutually contradictory doctrines. Doesn’t this suggest that perhaps, while Scripture is dependable, perhaps personal, subjective interpretation of Scripture is not?

D. Since you admit that the authoritative and true Gospel was transmitted orally to the believers before Scripture was written or finalized, is it possible that the authoritative and true interpretation and doctrine of the Gospel was transmitted orally to the believers as well? Why or why not?

Interesting conversation. Thanks for your answers thus far.

Hi Evlogitos,

I sense from your questions that this discussion will just go around in circles.
I agree that the true Gospel was and often is transmitted orally to believers, but I do not agree that there was ever a time when written Scripture was not available to back up anything taught as Gospel.
If you read (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), you will find Paul using the words “according to the scriptures” twice. That fact eliminates any idea that scripture backing the Gospel did not already exist as Paul taught it.
Paul had new revelations from Jesus during his ministry that helped him to expound on how the Old Testament pointed to Jesus’ Gospel. It was always preaching backed with the written Word of God.

There will never be perfect harmony on the interpretation of Scripture, while we are living in this time of Grace.
The devil is doing his work to disrupt the unity of Christ’s Church.
That is why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all Truth.
You can laugh at that idea by using your reasoning to say “Look at all the disharmony!”.
There are some preachers that I have no problem agreeing with in just about every bit of their theology. There is that “Yes!” that I sense with whatever they say in regards to the Gospel.
Some will say that it is my subjective viewpoint that makes me say that, but I know better.
That is as far as I want to go for now on this discussion.
I pray our Gracious Lord will guide and keep you in all Truth.

Your brother in Christ, brkn1

 

[Evlogitos]

I agree that the true Gospel was and often is transmitted orally to believers, but I do not agree that there was ever a time when written Scripture was not available to back up anything taught as Gospel.
If you read (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), you will find Paul using the words “according to the scriptures” twice. That fact eliminates any idea that scripture backing the Gospel did not already exist as Paul taught it.
Paul had new revelations from Jesus during his ministry that helped him to expound on how the Old Testament pointed to Jesus’ Gospel. It was always preaching backed with the written Word of God.

Excellent! This, again, shows how critical the question of interpretation is. The Jews of Paul’s time (and our modern time) had access to the Old Testament; that is, the Jewish Scriptures. At the time Paul was preaching, they would have fallen into three camps, with differing approaches:

1. The Sadducees. It may surprise you to know that the Sadducees actually were the Protestants of the Jewish sects at the time. They held to a smaller and stricter list of which books were Scripture, and they believed literal interpretation of Scripture alone, rejecting all oral tradition–sound familiar? Consequently, the Sadducees denied many doctrines, such as the immortality of the soul and the resurrection of the dead. This probably contributed in part to the poor reception of Christianity by the Sadducees.
2. The Pharisees. They too held to the Old Testament, but they had a larger canon, they believed in somewhat more allegorical interpretations, and they believed in the authority of their oral traditions. As such, they had several schools of thought, the most important ones being the rival schools of Shammai and Hillel. The traditions of Shammai were very rigorous and legalistic, and are the teachings condemned by Jesus in the Gospels. The traditions of Hillel were much more inclusive and gracious, and many scholars believe that the teachings of Jesus parallel the tradition of Hillel in many areas. It is known that many Pharisees–probably those of Hillel’s school–converted to Christianity in the early Church.
3. The Christians. (Specifically, the Apostle Paul.) As with the Pharisees and Sadducees, Paul believed in the authority of the Old Testament, as you point out. However, he received authoritative doctrine from the mouth of Christ, which directed him to use the Scriptures in a very different way than the Jews. Paul received a Holy Tradition of the interpretation of the Scriptures, which was “a more excellent way” than the interpretations of the Jews. It is this divine Tradition, lying outside the Scriptures but reflecting the perfect Truth of the Scriptures, that Paul commands all Christians to keep (1 Cor. 11:2; 2 Thess 2:15, 3:6).

So, again, we see three groups using the exact same Scriptures and coming to wildly different conclusions, depending on their interpretation. This again highlights the importance of adopting the interpretation passed down from Christ and the Apostles, instead of one’s own personal judgment.

I completely agree with you, brkn1, that Satan seeks to disrupt the unity of the Church, and I also agree that the Holy Spirit has been sent to guide the Church into all Truth. We are told to test the spirits, to see if they are from God. So we know that the Holy Spirit is given to us so that we may all be of one mind (2 Cor. 13:11) and be one, even as God is one (John 17:11).

This is why, when I look at the incredible disharmony among the Protestants, I am sadly forced to conclude that the one principle they all share–sola scriptura, the private interpretation of Scripture–is not a doctrine given by the Holy Spirit, because it daily increases disharmony in the Church, in direct opposition to the commandment that there should be no schism in the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:25).

Private interpretation leads to the same end as the Sadducees, who ended up discarding many of the most important and glorious doctrines of God in favour of their personal take on Scripture. The only viable alternative for a true lover of God is to follow in the footsteps of Paul, and bring yourself in harmony with the divine oral doctrine given to him by the Lord Himself.

As mentioned above, it is God’s will that we all be one. The Holy Spirit will not help us if we each try to join with the Truth alone… this is reflective of spiritual pride.

True faith and obedience to God require that we join the continually perfect Church, the very same spotless Bride of Christ which Jesus established and the Apostles died to preserve. It is only within this visible Church that we will find unity of doctrine, divine authority of interpretation, unbroken historical continuity with the true Church founded by Christ, and the fullness of “the faith delivered once, for all, unto the saints.” It is only within this one, holy, catholic, and Apostolic Church that we will find true oneness with one another and with God.

“There will be one flock and one Shepherd… the glory which You gave Me, I have given them, that they may be one, just as We are one.”

–Seraphim