Sola Scriptura

[brianberean]

hlgomez:

Are you saying you trust the scholars more than the Bible? Whew! Thanks be to God we have the Magisterium that guides our interpretation! For we simply not trust in those scholars.

Please show me evidence that the magistereum has infallibly interpreted Gen 3:15.

Carefully read the text: (Gen 3:15) “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed;…” In this text, it shows that the woman is involved here, not just her seed. Is God speaking here or not? Don’t change the meaning of God’s word to suite you argument.

The woman is Israel.

Isn’t it clear enough for you, referring to these passages, that the devil is so angry at the woman (Mary) that he wanted to destroy her as well? Isn’t there a battle going on between her, her offsprings and the devil?

Even more reason to beleive the woman is Israel. How many offsprings did Mary have?

Brian

 

[brianberean]

hlgomez:

Are you really Biblical or what? You want a Biblical proof of IC? Turn with me, then, to the Book of Song of Songs 4:7

You are all fair, my love;* there is no flaw in you***. (KJV)

You are so beautiful, my beloved, so perfect in every part. (NLT)

*Thou art all fair, O my love, **and there is not a spot in thee. ***
(DRB)

These passage refer to Mary and is BIBLICAL. Unless you want to interpret otherwise. Note that Mary is the Spouse of the holy Spirit (mmm…that’s Catholic ).

*Pio

There is no reason to beleive these verses refer to Mary. If you think they do, please show evidence that the RCC has infallibly interpreted that these verses refer to Mary.

Brian

 

[hlgomez]

Please show me evidence that the magistereum has infallibly interpreted Gen 3:15.

Answer my questions first, then I will answer yours. Don’t throw back the question to me. Answer me if you believe the scholars interpretation?

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

The woman is Israel.

Is this your interpretation? Justify it. For we believe it is Mary, the Woman always addressed by the Lord. Note that Jesus never says “mother” to her. Nor He calls her daughter, unlike the other women where He calls them daughter.

Think about it–WHY DID JESUS CALLS HER WOMAN NOT DAUGHTER OR SISTER OR MOTHER WHICH IS ALSO APPROPORIATE TO HER, BUT INSTEAD CALLED HER THAT?

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Even more reason to beleive the woman is Israel. How many offsprings did Mary have?

Did Mary ended her motherhood only to CHrist? For how come the LORD himself said to her, “Woman, behold your son, … behold thy mother”? Is she not giving her to us? Jesus will not just utter words that doesn’t have a deep meaning.

Pio

 

[brianberean]

hlgomez:

Let’s set aside the IC dogma. I wanted to ask you some questions and answer sincerily from your heart. Now you say that you love her.

1. How do you show your love to her? If yes, how do you manifest your love to her?

I show my love and respect for Mary by beleiving what Scripture says about her and not all the extra RC excessive, near idolatry-like, teachings.

1. Do you acknowledge that Mary is your mother?

I acknowledge Mary as the mother of Jesus Christ our savior.

1. Do you ask for her intercession, as we mostly do when we say to others; “please pray for me…”

Absolutely not. I will not offend God that way. Please show me one single place in Scripture where prayer to anyone other than God is condoned.

1. Do you believe that she is with her Son in heaven?

I beleive Mary is in Heaven.

1. Do you believe that God can preserve her from sin from the moment of her conception? Or simply say; “Can God do it?”

God can do anything. He could preserve Mary, Peter, John and anyone else from sin if that pleased Him. But there is no reason to beleive He did.

Now, with regards to what you call “accusations” by me, those are only my opinions. If you are offended by it, I didn’t mean to, since I only view it based on your statements.

We all have opinions. We can all choose to make assertions based on our opinions that we shouldn’t make because it isn’t our place or we can choose to demonstrate good message board ettiquette (sp?). I find it completely anti-productive and probably sinful to accuse people of hate, simply because they don’t agree with me. Apology accepted.

Brian

 

[hlgomez]

There is no reason to beleive these verses refer to Mary. If you think they do, please show evidence that the RCC has infallibly interpreted that these verses refer to Mary.

You just don’t accept the interpretation of the CHurch. You rely more on your interpretation. Scripture has shown it, now you deny it. You said you want Biblical proof, we show it–you deny it. What else do we need to show to you?

Pio

 

[brianberean]

hlgomez:

Answer my questions first, then I will answer yours. Don’t throw back the question to me. Answer me if you believe the scholars interpretation?

Pio

Fair enough. The translation you are trusting is Jerome’s mistake when he translated the original Hebrew to the Latin Vulgate edition of the bible. See, you are trusting a scholar. Unless we know Hebrew and Greek, we do have to trust translations to an extent. If I’m not mistaken, even the most recent RC approved editions of the bible have fixed Jerome’s mistake.

Brian

 

[hlgomez]

I show my love and respect for Mary by beleiving what Scripture says about her and not all the extra RC excessive, near idolatry-like, teachings.

Is that enough for you? By believing what Scripture says? We all believe in Scripture, even the Devil believe and even quote from it.

My point is: how do you practice your love? For if we say we love somebody we show our affection to that person. It’s not a make-believe love–it’s action that flows from love. How do you show action?

Further, your distorted view that you say we are in idolatry, first try to absorb what we do and believe. We don’t say Mary is God–never do we say that, nor we say that we place her above that to her Son. It’s you and all those who hate her that says we are in idolatry because of our great affection and devotion to the Mother of God.

Pio

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

Do you know what saying “The only truth there is is what is written in scripture” is like saying?

It’s like saying that “The only truth there is is what can be experimentally proved by science”. If you reread that statement carefully, you find that it implodes. Why, you ask? Because there is nothing in science that proves that everything can be experimentally proved by science. So what you’re saying is really, “I believe only what can be experimentally proved by science, except this statement”. By saying this, you cancel out the belief entirely.

It’s like saying “There are no moral absolutes”. Well, you find that this statement, much like the first, trips over itself. Why, you ask? Because you just made a moral absolute. So what you’re saying is really, “There are no moral absolutes, besides this one”. By saying this, you cancel out the belief entirely.

It’s like saying “All generalizations are false”. Well, you find that like the last two, this one also is quite a few eggs short of an omelet. Why, you ask for the third time? Because you just made a generalization by saying that all generalizations are false. So what you’re saying is really, “All generalizations are false, besides this one”. By saying this, you cancel out the belief entirely.

What do all these have in common, if you remember I said at the beginning “Do you know what saying ‘The only truth there is is what is written in scripture’ is like saying?” They all have three things in common. They are all final statements on subjects, they all contradict themselves, and by contradicting themselves, they all implode and destroy themselves completely, meaning that when one makes one of these statements or one like it, they are in fact, stating the opposite.

I must give credit to David B. Currie who wrote these objections (except for the last paragraph, and no, I didn’t quote him) in his book “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic”.

Vita in Christo.

Corpus Cristi

 

[hlgomez]

Fair enough. The translation you are trusting is Jerome’s mistake when he translated the original Hebrew to the Latin Vulgate edition of the bible. See, you are trusting a scholar. Unless we know Hebrew and Greek, we do have to trust translations to an extent. If I’m not mistaken, even the most recent RC approved editions of the bible have fixed Jerome’s mistake.

What Bible translation do you use? I just qouted them from a Protestant Bible (KJV). Are you admitting your translation is wrong if you use KJV as reliable?

If you wish, let’s go to the original Greek or Hebrew. What does it say?

Further, what “Jerome’s mistake” are included in CC translations? Show it and then compare it to your Bible. Who translated your Bible?

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

God can do anything. He could preserve Mary, Peter, John and anyone else from sin if that pleased Him. But there is no reason to beleive He did.

How do you justify your statement? You’re contradicting yourself. When you say there is no reason that God will do it— justify it.

I find it completely anti-productive and probably sinful to accuse people of hate, simply because they don’t agree with me. Apology accepted.

Thanks and hope you continue to dialogue with us.

Pio

 

[brianberean]

**It’s you and all those who hate her ** that says we are in idolatry because of our great affection and devotion to the Mother of God.

Pio

I warned you before that if you continued to speak recklessly and make such asinine assertions I would not continue to discuss this issue with you. I will not contribute to your sin.

Brian

 

[brianberean]

Corpus Cristi:

Do you know what saying “The only truth there is is what is written in scripture” is like saying?

I may know what it is like, but I never said it.

Brian

 

[hlgomez]

I warned you before that if you continued to speak recklessly and make such asinine assertions I would not continue to discuss this issue with you. I will not contribute to your sin.

Calm down. Your assertions bluntly says that we are idolaters. Isn’t this a reckless assertion hurled against us? I am not saying that you hate Mary, its the “others”, not you ( I honestly believe what you say that you love Mary).

Pio

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

brianberean:

I may know what it is like, but I never said it.

Brian

Excuse me, you may have not said those exact words, but it’s clear that you’ve said words like it, and also it’s clear that you believe it. Did you read the rest of my post, or did you not feel up to replying to that part?

 

[hlgomez]

Brian,

DOn’t be offended, dialoguing with you had been very interesting to me. And I would say, it’s great to have you here and share your views. No offense on whatsoever, please. I’m not trying to offend no one.

Absolutely not. I will not offend God that way. Please show me one single place in Scripture where prayer to anyone other than God is condoned.

Now, regarding this one: Isn’t Paul always mentioning to other Christians to pray for him and his ministry? How about the other exhortations to pray for one another?

Here’s some passages:

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God. This proves the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers are united.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.

Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other’s prayers.

We have a lot of other passages in the Bible.

Pio

 

[brianberean]

Corpus Cristi:

Excuse me, you may have not said those exact words, but it’s clear that you’ve said words like it, and also it’s clear that you believe it. Did you read the rest of my post, or did you not feel up to replying to that part?

The rest of your post seemed to be directed at someone who beleives that the only place to find truth is in the bible. That person ain’t me, so why should I respond to it? Why should I defend a view I don’t hold?

Brian

 

[brianberean]

hlgomez:

Brian,

DOn’t be offended, dialoguing with you had been very interesting to me. And I would say, it’s great to have you here and share your views. No offense on whatsoever, please. I’m not trying to offend no one.

I will discuss the fact that Scripture doesn’t condone God’s people praying to anything else except directly to God. I will not discuss Mary with you anymore for the reasons stated above.

Now, regarding this one: Isn’t Paul always mentioning to other Christians to pray for him and his ministry? How about the other exhortations to pray for one another?

Asking or writing to other Christians who are alive to pray for you is not the same as praying to those who have left this life. Nowhere does Scripture condone praying to saints no longer living on earth.

Here’s some passages:

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

All these verses concern those who are alive on earth praying for others.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God. This proves the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers are united.

At most, this shows that saints in heaven can pray to God. It does not show or condone those alive on earth praying to those who are not alive on earth.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

Mary was alive on earth when she interceded.

Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.

Jesus tells people who are alive on earth to pray to God for others.

Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.

Paul is addressing those alive on earth.

2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other’s prayers.

Neither these, nor any other verses in Scripture condone praying to the dead for intercession. We are commanded to pray only to God alone. I will continue to do just that.

Brian

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

brianberean:

The rest of your post seemed to be directed at someone who beleives that the only place to find truth is in the bible. That person ain’t me, so why should I respond to it? Why should I defend a view I don’t hold?

Brian

You believe that something doesn’t have to be in scripture explicitely or implicitely for someone to believe it and be correct?