Sola Scriptura

[brianberean]

Corpus Cristi:

You believe that something doesn’t have to be in scripture explicitely or implicitely for someone to believe it and be correct?

In certain circumstances, yes. For instance, the NT canon. However, that doesn’t mean I beleive any teachings that come along. If some denomination started teaching that the Apostle Thaddeus was sinless from birth I wouldn’t beleive it unless I could find it in Scripture. Even if they used as clever an argument as this one

I beleive we should test everything (whenever possible subjecting it to Scripture) and hold fast to what is good.

Brian

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

brianberean:

In certain circumstances, yes. For instance, the NT canon. However, that doesn’t mean I beleive any teachings that come along. If some denomination started teaching that the Apostle Thaddeus was sinless from birth I wouldn’t beleive it unless I could find it in Scripture. Even if they used as clever an argument as this one

I beleive we should test everything (whenever possible subjecting it to Scripture) and hold fast to what is good.

Brian

What do you believe that isn’t in the Bible?

 

[brianberean]

Pax:

Brian,

Your response to my point about “Moses seat” is no response at all. If you read my post you will see that I fully recognize the view Jesus took concerning the Jewish elders. While He ripped them, He still acknowledged their position of authority which you have not refuted.

I wouldn’t try to refute that Christ, in some way, told His disciples to acknowlege the Pharisee’s authority. (If that is all you were asserting, then ignore the rest of this response.) However, in no stretch does Scripture lead us to beleive that this is some sort of “infallible” authority to bind His disciples to their doctrines.

The greatest refutation of your intended exegesis of Matt 23 is the glaring fact that the Pharisees taught that people should not follow Jesus.

Another refutation is the actions of the disciples in the gospels and Acts. Did they ever recognize some kind of “infallible” doctrinal binding authority of the Pharisees? No.

Here is Christ’s words from Matthew 5: (to the Pharisees)
7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ "

Jesus specifically addresses what the Pharisees teach here. Do you really think that a short time later Jesus would tell His disciples to follow what the Pharisees teach?
…
12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” 13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

Here Jesus specifically calls the Pharisees “blind leaders”. Do you really think that a short time later He would direct His disciples to submit to any real leadership type of authority of the Pharisees?

In Evangelical Answers Dr. Eric Svendson lists nine facts about how the NT portrays the Pharisees:

1. The were condemned by Jesus (Matt 23:13ff).
2. There were not entering the kingdom of God, and were shutting out those who wanted to enter. (Matt 23:13).
3. They made their converts “sons of hell” (Matt 23:15).
4. Jesus told his disciples to beware of their teachings (Matt 16:6-12).
5. Their traditions contradicted the Scriptures (Mark 7:1-13).
6. Jesus denied that they were children of the covenant (John 8:39-41)
7. Jesus called them children of Satan (John 8:44)
8. The majority of them rejected the Messiah.
9. The majority of them were excluded from the New Covenant and eternal life.

The man born blind, who was healed by Jesus (John 9:1-41), was excommunicated from the synagogue because he refused to follow the religious leaders in their rejection of Christ. They refused to believe in Jesus and discouraged others from doing so, falsely accusing him of being a false prophet, empowered by Satan. The man born blind was cut off from the religious life of his nation, from the visible Church of his day, but he was a believer and a saved man. Submitting himself to the teaching of the Pharisees, who sat on the seat of Moses, would have meant the rejection of Christ and his eternal damnation.

Unless Jesus contradicted Himself, He could have only meant that the Pharisees were to be obeyed in all that they said according to that law, provided they deliver the law correctly.

Brian

 

[brianberean]

Corpus Cristi:

What do you believe that isn’t in the Bible?

Everything I learned in school. Except that algebra would be applicable to real life

Brian

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

brianberean:

In certain circumstances, yes. For instance, the NT canon. However, that doesn’t mean I beleive any teachings that come along. If some denomination started teaching that the Apostle Thaddeus was sinless from birth I wouldn’t beleive it unless I could find it in Scripture. Even if they used as clever an argument as this one

I beleive we should test everything (whenever possible subjecting it to Scripture) and hold fast to what is good.

Brian

What do you believe that isn’t in the Bible? Like I said, the reason that sola scriptura implodes is because there’s no place in the Bible that says that scripture ALONE is sufficient, though, scripture itself IS sufficient, though it is consubstantiant with Sacred Tradition and Magesterial Teaching. They flow from the same divine wellspring, as the Catechism puts it. Where you find Sacred Scripture, you must also find Sacred Tradition and Magesterial Teaching. Where you find Magesterial Teaching, you must find Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Where there is Sacred Tradition, you must find Sacred Scripture and Magesterial Teaching. If you don’t find all of those together in your teaching, it’s very possible you’re not really hearing what God is saying. You could take it out of context, you could make it say what you want it to say. For instance, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is usually given by protestants to support sola scriptura. We as Catholics agree with what it says, though we don’t agree on how you interpret it. It’s not going along with Sacred Tradition and Magesterial Teaching. Protestants interpret the “all” in that passage to mean “only”. That’s what’s set in their minds. They go to scripture with this preconceived notion that scripture alone is sufficient, and then they find this, and they think they’ve found something that supports their point. It however doesn’t agree with the rest of the Bible. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is a passage of Paul telling the church in Thessalonica to “hold fast to the TRADITIONS that I have given you, EITHER by WORD or by LETTER.” He tells them to hold fast to traditions. Protestants use scripture itself to make the word tradition a dirty word. It however, is being used by St. Paul. Is he contradicting scripture? No, he isn’t. Whenever tradition is condemned, they condemn BAD TRADITION, tradition that doesn’t mean anything, tradition that contradicts Christs teachings. He also says in this passage that he has delievered tradition to them by BOTH word of mouth and by letter. He’s saying by this that he hasn’t only given them the word of God through writing. He’s also given them the word of God by word of mouth, which obviously isn’t the same thing as writing something down. Not all we need to know about Christianity is in the Bible.

 

[fulloftruth]

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

 

[fulloftruth]

Hermas

“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (*The Shepherd *3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria

“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (*Miscellanies *7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen

“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (*Prayer *11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage

“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (*Letters *56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Anonymous

“Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins” (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

“Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days” (ibid.).

“Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (*Rylands Papyrus *3 [A.D. 350]).

Methodius

“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness” (*Oration on Simeon and Anna *14 [A.D. 305]).

“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).

“And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’” (ibid.).

 

[fulloftruth]

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (*Catechetical Lectures *23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Hilary of Poitiers

“To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting” (*Commentary on the Psalms *124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraim the Syrian

“You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him” (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

“Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day” (*The Fear at the End of Life *[A.D. 370]).

The Liturgy of St. Basil

“By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name” (*Liturgy of St. Basil *[A.D. 373]).

Pectorius

“Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]” (*Epitaph of Pectorius *[A.D. 375]).

Gregory of Nazianz

“May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand” (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).

"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).

Gregory of Nyssa

“[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom” (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom

“He that wears the purple * . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead” (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

“When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]” (*Orations *8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Ambrose of Milan

“May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance” (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

Jerome

“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).*

 

[fulloftruth]

Augustine

“A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers” (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

“There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended” (*Sermons *159:1 [A.D. 411]).

“At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps” (*Homilies on John *84 [A.D. 416]).

“Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ” (*The City of God *20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).

 

[fulloftruth]

I don’t think HLGomez should apologize for anything, Brian thinks he can call us Idol worshipers, but we can’t say that he is BLaspheming the Church and our Mother Mary. It amazes me how some things can be so obvious to some and to others they can say “I don’t see it.” All the more reason to have an Authority to say definitively one way or the other. Everything ends up pointing to the Catholic Church. I don’t think Brian believes in the Mystical Body of Christ and that Mary as His Mother gave birth to the person of Christ not just his Humanity. And that in giving birth to Christ she also gave birth to all of those that keep his commandments. And therfore she is Our Spiritual Mother, the Mother of all of the Living, and that because of this Christ becomes really our Brother, and God the Father really our Father. She is also the Queen Mother of the Heavenly Jerusalem complete with a crown of twelve Stars. Brian will probably say that that is Israel, but if read literally, the woman who gives birth to Christ is Mary and she does go out to the wilderness to avoid the herodian invasion and the killing of all the male children. And in the previous passage she is the Ark of the Covenant, because she carried the Word of God in Flesh.Notice the corrilation between Elizabeth’s greeting when she here’s Mary’s voice and the words of King David when he reclaims the Ark. It is verbatum except the word Mother replaces the word Ark. Notice how David dances for Joy as does John the Baptist in the womb, in the presence of the Ark. Notice how they both arose and went to the hill country of Judea for 3 months. This is the way to read Scripture. Not in a cold College classroom without any pictures or depictions of heaven but alive with flavor and family joy. The Bible is filled with connections of the Old and New Testament and only the CC can bring you the fulness of truth as Christ intends it. Not a verse here, and a cold undescriptive , completely literal, verse there, but a colorful description of real people and real events woven together the way only the Spirit could weave. I Love it

 

[brianberean]

fulloftruth:

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”

Psalm 148:
1 Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens; Praise Him in the heights! 2 Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts! 3 Praise Him, sun and moon; Praise Him, all you stars of light! 4 Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! 5 Let them praise the name of the Lord, For He commanded and they were created. 6 He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.

7** Praise the Lord from the earth, You great sea creatures and all the depths; 8 Fire and hail, snow and clouds; Stormy wind, fulfilling His word; 9 Mountains and all hills; Fruitful trees and all cedars; 10 Beasts and all cattle; Creeping things and flying fowl; ** …

Sorry Charlie…
I wouldn’t try to say that these Scriptures condone praying to angels unless you’re claiming that Scripture condones praying to fire, hail, mountains, stars, and creeping things…

**Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. **

These prayers are to God. They could either be prayers from saints on earth to God or prayers from saints in heaven to God. But nowhere would one get the idea that these are prayers from saints on earth to saints in heaven passed on to God.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Again, there is no reason to believe these prayers were not made directly to God. Are insinuating that these prayers were made to the angel?

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

Again, nothing to do with praying to the angels.

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

Living (on earth) saints praying for living saints is entirely biblical and entirely not the topic.

Brian

 

[brianberean]

fulloftruth:

I don’t think HLGomez should apologize for anything, Brian thinks he can call us Idol worshipers, but we can’t say that he is BLaspheming the Church and our Mother Mary.

Your choices of words are very interesting. You claim that I called you “Idol worshipers” when what I really said was “near idolatry-like teachings”. Notice how you inaccurately make me sound much worse than what I said. Next you say that you and HL say “he is blaspheming the church and our Mother Mary” when what you both really said was that I “hate Mary” or “hate the church” and persecuting Christ. Notice how you made what you two said much less severe than what you really said. You should really try to be more careful with your words, you are reckless.

Brian will probably say that that is Israel, but if read literally, the woman who gives birth to Christ is Mary and she does go out to the wilderness to avoid the herodian invasion and the killing of all the male children.

How much of Revelation do you read literally? Is there any book in the canon that is more symbolic and not read literally? Was she literally clothed in the sun? Was there a literal crown of twelve stars around her head (must have been hot)? Did the dragon literally sweep away a third of the stars and hurl them towards the earth?

And in the previous passage she is the Ark of the Covenant, because she carried the Word of God in Flesh.

James White:
While we admit the force such things carry with those who already accept these doctrine, we point out that there is no way to test the interpretation. We can easily point out absurdities to which the parallel can be pushed–for example, must Mary have been stolen by God’s enemies for a time, so that she could be brought back to the people of God with great rejoicing? Who was Mary’s Uzzah (2 Samuel 6:3-8)? Madrid draws a further parallel between the three months the ark was with Obededom and the three months Mary was with Elizabeth. What, then, is the parallel with David’s action of sacrificing a bull and a fattened calf when those who were carrying the ark had taken six steps (2 Samuel 6:13)? See, Mr. Madrid feels free to pick and choose what aspects of Mary’s life he wishes to parallel in the ark, and which he does not–there are no rules in this kind of interpretation, and it can lead to just about any conclusion.

Irenaeus:
“so is that ark declared a type of the body of Christ, which is both pure and immaculate. For as that ark was gilded with pure gold both within and without, so also is the body of Christ pure and resplendent, being adorned within by the Word, and shielded on the outside by the Spirit, in order that from both materials the splendour of the natures might be exhibited together.” (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, 48)

Hippolytus:
“At that time, then, the Saviour appeared and showed His own body to the world, born of the Virgin, who was the ‘ark overlaid with pure gold,’ with the Word within and the Holy Spirit without; so that the truth is demonstrated, and the ‘ark’ made manifest…the Saviour appeared in the world, bearing the imperishable ark, His own body” (On Daniel, 2:6)

Brian

 

[brianberean]

Corpus Cristi:

What do you believe that isn’t in the Bible? Like I said, the reason that sola scriptura implodes is because there’s no place in the Bible that says that scripture ALONE is sufficient, though, scripture itself IS sufficient, though it is consubstantiant with Sacred Tradition and Magesterial Teaching.

Would it have to say those exact words in the bible or could it be demonstrated throughout Scripture?

For instance, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is usually given by protestants to support sola scriptura.

I think 2 Tim 3:16 supports sola scriptura, but not for the reason you claim. 2 Tim 3:16 says all Scripture is “God-breathed”. Nothing else that we have available to us today is God-breathed. The words of the pope aren’t God breathed. The words written by councils and magistereums aren’t God-breathed. History has test those and shown them to be fallible. By the process of elimination, the only thing we have available to us on earth that is God-breathed is Scripture.

It however doesn’t agree with the rest of the Bible. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is a passage of Paul telling the church in Thessalonica to “hold fast to the TRADITIONS that I have given you, EITHER by WORD or by LETTER.”

The traditions by word were the same as the traditions by letter. All Paul is saying is hold fast to the Gospel I shared either when I was there in person or when I write you. If you disagree, can you show me one single tradition that is not in Scripture that has been passed up from the church of Thessalonica through the apostles and still held by the RCC today? Just one. (with some sort of evidence)

He tells them to hold fast to traditions. Protestants use scripture itself to make the word tradition a dirty word.

Wrong. Protestants use tradition. The RCC abuse tradition by attempting to raise it to the level reserved for Scripture alone.

Brian

 

[hlgomez]

Brian,

First of all, I don’t wish to make apology for the truth that I have defended. It’s maybe the way I said about you that may have hurt your ego, but for that, I wish I could have conveyed it in a more charitable way (if ever I did offended you because of the truth). But truth offends someone who is not in the truth. So, in them I don’t wish to make apology.

Now, with regards to my comments about your answers that seems to avoid justification–I would like to reiterate that you justify your answers; re: the way you interpret the Scriptures like that of a “woman” and not the Church’s interpretetion.

I also answered you about your demand for just one Catholic doctrine that will share the same meaning with the early Fathers. And I explained to you about the nature of the holy Eucharist–the most primitive of all Catholic Doctrine. I would like to ask you on this particular doctrine, which sad to say you held before as Catholic, but abandoned them. Do you find the fathers, the Bible, and the CC’s teaching anything but oppsing with each other in their interpretation?

Pio

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

brianberean:

Nancy, I just noticed that you are a Packer fan. Your stock has just risen dramatically in my book!

:clapping:

I think any “unique” views, theologies, claims or teachings should be treated with caution.

Agreed, but I’d like to hear your opinion nonetheless.

Evidence? The “seat of Moses” account from Matthew is not evidence for the claim you made. The Pharisees had only been around for a couple hundred years.

Sure it’s evidence. Jesus tells them to listen to their teaching because they sit in the seat of Moses, because they have teaching authority. From the time of Moses someone always occupied the “seat”. Before the Pharisees it was someone else.

I’m just asking you to read the verse in context. Draw you own conclusions.

Drawing ones own conclusions makes truth relative. That’s how Protestantism began and continues to split and grow.

I answered the “how” in my response.

You answer how you can be certain that I’m incorrect? I missed that. Please restate it. Thanks!

In the same report Barrett claims there are thousands of Catholic denominations. What does that mean?

I’m not familiar with that, but it would mean that he’s lumping all legitimate rites and dissenting sects under the general heading of “Catholic”.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[hlgomez]

Living (on earth) saints praying for living saints is entirely biblical and entirely not the topic.

Brian

Brian,

Your think that those who are in heaven cannot intercede nor pray for us. This is a very shallow argument not well grounded in Scriptures and the power of God working on these Saints in heaven.

Which one, therefore, is more powerful intercessor for you? Those who are in heaven with the Lord or the one who are on earth and not yet perfected?

Are you trying to say that those who are in heaven are “dead” because they already left the earth, and the ones who are here on earth and the only ones that are “alive”? Oh how shallow this argument is! Isn’t not our God the God of the living? How do you define those who are alive in Christ? For when Jesus answered the Jews doubting the resurrection, He reiterated this very same words–that our God is not the God of the dead but of the living! Are you then to say that those who are in heaven cannot in any way intercede or pray for us because they can’t hear us?

Now believe the Catholic Church’s teaching about the communion of Saints. For these was taken from the Apostle’s Creed, and believed by all Christians! For in these, when we receive the Body and Blood of the Lord in the Eucharist, all Christians, here on earth and in heaven are in UNION with each other. For we become ONE BODY, ONE SPIRIT in CHRIST as Paul puts it. So therefore, since we are one Body, and one Spirit, the communication of all Christians–as One Mystical Body of Christ-- is very much real–both the corporal reality and spiritual reality!

Therefore, our prayers on asking them to pray for us is heard very loud and clear in heaven.

Pio

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

I love Mary. She is blessed! What I dislike are the unbiblical teachings of the RCC concerning Mary.

By “unbiblical” do you mean EXTRA-biblical (which is acceptable, all Christians hold to extra-biblcial teachings) or ANTI-biblical (which is unacceptable because nothing can contradict scripture)?

Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

1. Do you ask for her intercession, as we mostly do when we say to others; “please pray for me…”

brianberean:

Absolutely not. I will not offend God that way. Please show me one single place in Scripture where prayer to anyone other than God is condoned.

Brian

Hi Brian!

You didn’t answer the actual question that was asked. The question you answered could be phrased something like this:
“Do you pray to Mary in the same way that you pray to God?” That, of course, would be properly answered as you did.

The specific question was, however, do you ask Mary to pray FOR you? As you well know, interecessory prayer is spoken of very highly by Paul and is not, of course, offensive to God. If you don’t, that’s fine. Many Catholics don’t either. Many people stick to asking people on earth to pray for them.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

brianberean:

Would it have to say those exact words in the bible or could it be demonstrated throughout Scripture?

I think 2 Tim 3:16 supports sola scriptura, but not for the reason you claim. 2 Tim 3:16 says all Scripture is “God-breathed”. Nothing else that we have available to us today is God-breathed. The words of the pope aren’t God breathed. The words written by councils and magistereums aren’t God-breathed. History has test those and shown them to be fallible. By the process of elimination, the only thing we have available to us on earth that is God-breathed is Scripture.

The traditions by word were the same as the traditions by letter. All Paul is saying is hold fast to the Gospel I shared either when I was there in person or when I write you. If you disagree, can you show me one single tradition that is not in Scripture that has been passed up from the church of Thessalonica through the apostles and still held by the RCC today? Just one. (with some sort of evidence)

Wrong. Protestants use tradition. The RCC abuse tradition by attempting to raise it to the level reserved for Scripture alone.

Brian

Um, you can’t prove that 2 Thessalonians 2:15 means what you say it means from the Bible, it doesn’t. How do you know that the letters in the Bible are the ONLY letters written to the church by Paul? How do you know that they are the complete letters? How do you know that the letters by any of the apostles are the ONLY letters that they wrote to the church? Many books weren’t included in the Bible, some written by the very apostles themselves. You’re argument has lots of holes in it Brian. And also, can you PLEASE look at my post “The HUUUGE difference between CATHOLIC and ROMAN CATHOLIC?” You’re a real pain when you keep on butchering terminology like that, which shows that you know much less about the church than you think.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

brianberean:

Would it have to say those exact words in the bible or could it be demonstrated throughout Scripture?

Personally, I’d be willing to accept a demonstration throughout Scripture. How is the sufficiency of Scripture demonsatrated throughout Scripture?

I think 2 Tim 3:16 supports sola scriptura, but not for the reason you claim. 2 Tim 3:16 says all Scripture is “God-breathed”. Nothing else that we have available to us today is God-breathed.

How can you be sure? On what do you base this assumption?

The words of the pope aren’t God breathed.] The words written by councils and magistereums aren’t God-breathed.

How can you be sure?

History has test those and shown them to be fallible.

How so? Please be specific.

Does scripture tell us that history is the standard by which we should test infallibility? If so, where? If not, how have you come to choose this is the standard?

By the process of elimination, the only thing we have available to us on earth that is God-breathed is Scripture.

Does sola Scriptura allow for the process of elimination to determine something as important as this? If so, where? If not, how have you come to use this extra-biblical method?

The traditions by word were the same as the traditions by letter.

How can you be sure?

All Paul is saying is hold fast to the Gospel I shared either when I was there in person or when I write you.

Scripture tells us that sometimes Paul preached all night long (Acts 20:7-12). It doesn’t stand to reason that he said absolutely nothing other than what can be found in his epistles unless he repeated the same things over and over again for hours and hours. There is nothing in scripture which indicates that that which was written is identical to that which was spoken. One must leave scripture and enter into extra-biblical speculation which violates sola Scriptura.

If you disagree, can you show me one single tradition that is not in Scripture that has been passed up from the church of Thessalonica through the apostles and still held by the RCC today? Just one. (with some sort of evidence)

Auricular confession. Of course, Catholics see this plainly in scripture, but I assumed you were referring to something that Protestants don’t believe is in there. My evidence is the Didache, a Christian document dating back to the first century. The document implores Christians to “confess your sins in Church”. This can’t simply mean confessing ones sins in a general sense because one doesn’t need to go to Church in order to do that.

The RCC abuse tradition by attempting to raise it to the level reserved for Scripture alone.

Where does scripture itself indicate the level that is reserved for scripture alone?

In Christ,
Nancy