Solas of the Protestant Reformation

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Not more than the RCC (ever hear the word Inquisition or Crusades)?

No where near the number of the RCC.
Sola, I am sorry if I’m being argumentative. I’m usually more of a lurker on these forums than an apologist. However, in response to your assertion I earlier compared the number of deaths brought about by the Spanish monarchy in the inquisition and it was less than half than the number killed in the Peasant Revolt.
In regard to the Crusades, they were established as a response to a call for help by the Byzantine emperor. Byzantine lands were being invaded by a foreign power. The situation wasn’t much different from the US and its Allies responding to a call for help by Kuwait when it was invaded by Iraq in the first Persian Gulf War.
I’ll go back to lurking now.
 
Hello again Sola. When you suggested that I had established a straw man argument I let it go. However, I just saw that you suggested another person did the same.

I just wanted to make sure that you know what a straw man argument is. A straw man argument is side-stepping an answer by distorting the other person’s position.
here’s what Wiki says:
  1. Person A has position X.
  2. Person B ignores X and instead presents position Y.
Straw man accurately defines it – or it’s close enough anyway, but perhaps red herring would have more accurate. It’s been 10 years since logic, sorry.
In this case you stated: Luther never never killed anyone.
There are others on the forum that are much more knowledgeable about Luther than I am, but I did attempt to address your argument directly.
…so I guess that I’m not sure why that bothers you.
Luther never did kill anyone. Whoever said he ever did is distorting the fact. Luther never so much as lifted a sword.
 
here’s what Wiki says:
  1. Person A has position X.
  2. Person B ignores X and instead presents position Y.
Straw man accurately defines it – or it’s close enough anyway, but perhaps red herring would have more accurate. It’s been 10 years since logic, sorry.

Luther never did kill anyone. Whoever said he ever did is distorting the fact. Luther never so much as lifted a sword.
Did Hitler actually kill anyone? Words can kill from people of influence. Luther words, as I posted before caused the deaths of thousands.

This just proves they were men, just as the men you pointed out. Again, you don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Jesus’ own disciples left him in John chapter 6, but we don’t leave Him over it. It’s His place to judge people, not ours.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
 
Sola, I am sorry if I’m being argumentative. I’m usually more of a lurker on these forums than an apologist. However, in response to your assertion I earlier compared the number of deaths brought about by the Spanish monarchy in the inquisition and it was less than half than the number killed in the Peasant Revolt.
In regard to the Crusades, they were established as a response to a call for help by the Byzantine emperor. Byzantine lands were being invaded by a foreign power. The situation wasn’t much different from the US and its Allies responding to a call for help by Kuwait when it was invaded by Iraq in the first Persian Gulf War.
I’ll go back to lurking now.
Only the first Crusade was in response to the call for help from Byzantium. I think there were at least seven crusades, and none of the others were noble in motive. It was a pure desire for power and conquest; and it was quite the blood bath.

Look, I don’t like reaching back a thousand years in history to recall the plunder of our ancestors. I’m of western European decent so my great great great (maybe a few more greats) grandfathers were probably over there too (I guess they fared well, since I’m here). 🙂

However, I see no sense in discussing the fact that a revolt occurred as a result of Lutheran doctrine. Frankly, Luther was not a man who liked the idea of rebellion. He had a distaste for the Anabaptists for example because he viewed them as rebels for rebellions sake. Rather, Luther was a priest, a man of peace, who fought with pen and paper. Certainly he could not have known what he started.

Luther initially thought Pope Leo was a good man, shocked by the truth of Leo’s complicity Luther really had no other direction to go. His 95 thesis became a freight train with no brakes after he nailed them to the church door. They were printed in mass almost immediately and that’s it, the momentum couldn’t be stopped.

When he said to his inquisitors “here I stand, I can do no other” (when he refused to recant), and the German princes ultimately stood up to their ruler, that was all she wrote.

It was a fantastic moment in history, even from a secular standpoint. In my undergrad years I wasn’t very Christian, and I still loved the reformation history. I was more attuned to guys like Nietzsche in college – no one would have guessed I was one of the elect (surely not me anyway). 🙂
 
Did Hitler actually kill anyone? Words can kill from people of influence. Luther words, as I posted before caused the deaths of thousands.

This just proves they were men, just as the men you pointed out. Again, you don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Jesus’ own disciples left him in John chapter 6, but we don’t leave Him over it. It’s His place to judge people, not ours.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
Just like the corrupt Pope’s were just men. Just like the inquisitors and crusaders were just men … I’m sure you have a point, but I’m still waiting for it? What does this have to do with the “sola’s” of the reformation?

You say it’s God’s place to judge people right after you launch a pharisaic assault on Luther’s character, falsely accusing the man of murder. You’re too funny.

You talk about death from truth … we’re Christians, we’re sheep for the slaughter. Martin Luther told the truth nothing else. That you deny the truth is between you and your maker.
 
I’ll be the first to admit that there were “men” who sinned, does that mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater? If that were so, Jesus picked Judas, or how about all those that abandoned the Lord and walked with him no more in John chapter 6? Do we abandon Christ for the sins of men? Certainly not.

You’re the one posting, Luther didn’t kill anyone, which is incorrect.

When Martin Luther schismed under the defense of sola scriptura, almost immediately his followers broke away and started their own Churches of course under the defense of sola scriptura. Martin Luther threatened death to try and stop those schisms. Irony, huh?

I just wanted to provide you another perspective you evidently haven’t heard about Luther.
no nothing new learned, except all you guys have is false ad hom attacks on Luther to support your case. No scripture, no theology, just attacks on poor old Luther.

Luther never killed anyone. If you’re going to say it … authority please? Give me something, even a Wikipedia reference. Oh, a secular source would be nice (not some kooky web site where you probably got this bumpkis from in the first place).

It’s funny do you really need to slam another mans character with false accusations to bolster your faith? Sad.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
Thanks I’m confident it is with me. I’ll pray it may be with you as well.
 
Just like the corrupt Pope’s were just men. Just like the inquisitors and crusaders were just men … I’m sure you have a point, but I’m still waiting for it? What does this have to do with the “sola’s” of the reformation?

You say it’s God’s place to judge people right after you launch a pharisaic assault on Luther’s character, falsely accusing the man of murder. You’re too funny.

You talk about death from truth … we’re Christians, we’re sheep for the slaughter. Martin Luther told the truth nothing else. That you deny the truth is between you and your maker.
You said Luther never killed anyone. I just posted links and excerpts to show that through his word, he had blood on his hands. I am not attacking Luther, I am researching history.

Now I’m being accused of not staying on topic? Anyone can read back through these posts and see, I’m just responding to what you’ve posted. If I’m off topic, I was lead there by your statements.

I’m sorry you find this news so shocking, honestly I am.

You say Luther told the truth and nothing else. Is the following a truthful statement about Jews in your opinion?
He advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews’ property and money, smashing up their homes, and ensuring that these “poisonous envenomed worms” be forced into labor or expelled “for all time.”[86] He also seemed to sanction their murder,[87] writing "We are at fault in not slaying them."
That’s from Wikipedia, the same source you’ve used in one of your posts.

I’ve already said, I would be one of the first to admit there were corrupted men from the Church. That’s the reality of men. There was only one who was perfect.

I’ll leave it at this. You might want to do some research on Martin Luther yourself. There’s a lot more out there than what’s posted here.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
 
You said Luther never killed anyone. I just posted links and excerpts to show that through his word, he had blood on his hands. I am not attacking Luther, I am researching history.

Now I’m being accused of not staying on topic? Anyone can read back through these posts and see, I’m just responding to what you’ve posted. If I’m off topic, I was lead there by your statements.

I’m sorry you find this news so shocking, honestly I am.

You say Luther told the truth and nothing else. Is the following a truthful statement about Jews in your opinion?

That’s from Wikipedia, the same source you’ve used in one of your posts.

I’ve already said, I would be one of the first to admit there were corrupted men from the Church. That’s the reality of men. There was only one who was perfect.

I’ll leave it at this. You might want to do some research on Martin Luther yourself. There’s a lot more out there than what’s posted here.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
Code:
* Saint Jerome (374-419) - He denounced Jews as "Judaic serpents of whom Judas was the model". In his The Jews in the Roman Empire (Les Juifs dan L'Empire Romain) [Is this really a work by Jerome, or a modern history?] he wrote: "The Jews seek nothing but to have children, possess riches and be healthy. They seek all earthly things, but think nothing of heavenly things; for this reason they are mercenaries."

* Saint John Chrysostom (c. 344 - 407) - wrote of the Jews and of Judaizers in eight homilies Adversus Judaeos, Against The Jews (or Against the Judaizers).[14]

"Shall I tell you of their plundering, their covetousness, their abandonment of the poor, their thefts, their cheating in trade? the whole day long will not be enough to give you an account of these things. But do their festivals have something solemn and great about them? They have shown that these, too, are impure." (Homily I, VII, 1)
"But before I draw up my battle line against the Jews, I will be glad to talk to those who are members of our own body, those who seem to belong to our ranks although they observe the Jewish rites and make every effort to defend them. Because they do this, as I see it, they deserve a stronger condemnation than any Jew." (HOMILY IV, II, 4)
"Are you Jews still disputing the question? Do you not see that you are condemned by the testimony of what Christ and the prophets predicted and which the facts have proved? But why should this surprise me? That is the kind of people you are. From the beginning you have been shameless and obstinate, ready to fight at all times against obvious facts." (HOMILY V, XII, 1)
Theodoret’s Ecclesiastical History records The Epistle of the Emperor Constantine, concerning the matters transacted at the Council, addressed to those Bishops who were not present:
Code:
"It was, in the first place, declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded. ... Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. ... Let us ... studiously avoiding all contact with that evil way. ... For how can they entertain right views on any point who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. ... lest your pure minds should appear to share in the customs of a people so utterly depraved. ... Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. ... no single point in common with the perjury of the Jews."[19]
So great … let’s have a whose ancient church fathers hated Jews more contest? Hey if anything some of the most important RCC church fathers hated the Jews with venom in their tongue. It’s easy to see where Luther got it from huh? Hey I guess I didn’t give up all Catholic practices after all.

Still want to continue down this road? Because I can assure you there’s more good stuff on the RCC. Oh and btw you still haven’t shown that Luther killed anyone?

Just in case you think I find this shocking, I knew about Luther’s feelings toward Jews. He first tried making overtures to them, but still doesn’t excuse his conduct. If anti-semitic rhetoric is the standard then no catholic church father will stand the test.
 
no nothing new learned, except all you guys have is false ad hom attacks on Luther to support your case. No scripture, no theology, just attacks on poor old Luther.

Luther never killed anyone. If you’re going to say it … authority please? Give me something, even a Wikipedia reference. Oh, a secular source would be nice (not some kooky web site where you probably got this bumpkis from in the first place).
I know I said that I’d get back to lurking, but yourreferred to you “guys,” so I assume that you are looking for responses from Prodigal as well as others.

It is easy enough to google and find secular sources for this. The first secular site listed on google included this quote of Luther’s: “Therefore, whosoever can, should smite, strangle, and stab, secretly or publicly, and should remember that there is nothing more poisonous, pernicious, and devilish than a rebellious man. Just as one must slay a mad dog, so, if you do not fight the rebels, they will fight you, and the whole country with you.”

It seems that he was inciting them to do something of an extreme nature.

It is at: historyguide.org/earlymod/peasants1525.html

Yes, this is off topic, but it is in response to your request.
 
Okay, let’s get back on topic. I assume that you have strong feelings concerning Sola Scriptura (based on your screen name). How is your screen name scriptural?
 
Okay, let’s get back on topic. I assume that you have strong feelings concerning Sola Scriptura (based on your screen name). How is your screen name scriptural?
see 2 Tim. 3:16

Great we’re finally talking about at least one “sola”
 
So great … let’s have a whose ancient church fathers hated Jews more contest? Hey if anything some of the most important RCC church fathers hated the Jews with venom in their tongue. It’s easy to see where Luther got it from huh? Hey I guess I didn’t give up all Catholic practices after all.

Still want to continue down this road? Because I can assure you there’s more good stuff on the RCC.
Is this what you call debate?

I’ve stated it twice now, there were sinful men throughout history, from all sides.

There was only one perfect.

Seriously, May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
 
see 2 Tim. 3:16

Great we’re finally talking about at least one “sola”
I’m sorry, but will you explain how you interpret this to support sola scriptura (Bible alone)?
2Ti 3:16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:
God Bless,
Prodigal Son1
 
It is believed that Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Bible. Until that time, the word was passed down through oral tradition.
According to Rabbinic Judaism, the oral Torah, oral Law, or oral tradition (Hebrew: תורה שבעל פה, Torah she-be-`al peh) is the oral tradition received in conjunction with the written Torah (and the rest of the Hebrew Bible), which is known in this context as the “written Torah” (Hebrew: תורה שבכתב, Torah she-bi-khtav). The Mishnah is the record of the oral Torah.
According to Rabbinic Judaism, Moses and the Israelites received an oral as well as the written Torah (“teaching”) from God at Mount Sinai. The books of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) were relayed with an oral tradition passed on by the scholarly and other religious leaders of each generation, and according to classical Rabbinic interpretation, the teachings of the oral law are a guide to that interpretation of the written law which is considered the authoritative reading. Jewish law and tradition thus is not based on a strictly literal reading of the Tanakh, but on combined oral and written traditions. Further, the basis of halakha (Jewish law) is the premise that the written law is inherently bound together with an oral law.
The “oral law” was ultimately recorded in the Mishnah, the Talmud and Midrash.
The laws transmitted to Moses were contained in the Torah written down on scrolls. The explanation however, was not allowed to be written down. Jews were obligated to speak the explanation and pass it on orally to students, children, and fellow adults. It was thus initially forbidden to write and publish the Oral Law: written material would be incomplete and subject to misinterpretation (and abuse).
After great debate, however, this restriction was lifted. Following the destruction of the Second Temple and the fall of Jerusalem, it became apparent that the Palestine community and its learning were threatened, and that publication was the only way to ensure that the law could be preserved; see Timeline of Jewish history.
When Jesus “quoted” Old Testament scriptures, He verbally quoted them. This was part of Jewish tradition.

The Apostles preached the Gospel through oral tradition. It wasn’t until they were arrested or for other reasons that they communicated through written text. It is thought the first writings were written on papyrus and you have understand there was not an abundance of papyrus available, especially to prisoners.

These letters were written to individual Churches which we can identify today by the names of the books in the New Testament. (Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Hebrews, Thessolonians, etc.) Those writings were held and valued by the individual Churches that received them. The “shelf” life of papyrus was not that good. In Europe, 200 year old papyrus was considered extraordinary. Storage in humid conditions can result in molds attacking and destroying the material.

It was only through the authority of the one Church that the individual letters were given so the one complete Bible could even come to be. This is where the canonical information comes in. It was centuries after those letters were written that the Bible was compiled. Until that time, each individual Church taught through oral tradition, so as to preserve the written text as long as possible. The written text was highly valued, or prized might be a better word, by the individual Churches that held them. This also validates the authority of the Church as the individual Churches released those documents to that authority.
Melito, bishop of Sardis, an ancient city of Asia Minor (see Rev 3), c. 170 AD produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther.
The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today’s canon. This was one of the Church’s earliest decisions on a canon.
Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today’s canon.
The Council of Rome, 382, was the forum which prompted Pope Damasus’ Decree.
Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse wrote to Pope Innocent I in 405 requesting a list of canonical books. Pope Innocent listed the present canon.
The Council of Hippo, a local north Africa council of bishops created the list of the Old and New Testament books in 393 which is the same as the Roman Catholic list today.
The Council of Carthage, a local north Africa council of bishops created the same list of canonical books in 397. This is the council which many Protestant and Evangelical Christians take as the authority for the New Testament canon of books. The Old Testament canon from the same council is identical to Roman Catholic canon today. Another Council of Carthage in 419 offered the same list of canonical books.
Since the Roman Catholic Church does not define truths unless errors abound on the matter, Roman Catholic Christians look to the Council of Florence, an ecumenical council in 1441 for the first definitive list of canonical books.
The final infallible definition of canonical books for Roman Catholic Christians came from the Council of Trent in 1556 in the face of the errors of the Reformers who rejected seven Old Testament books from the canon of scripture to that time.
There were many letters and epistles written after the death of the original 12 Apostles. They were considered but rejected for reasons the Church saw fit. Some were considered not reliable, some were written too long after the death of the final Apostle to be considered God breathed, or inspired. This did not mean they were not of value to the Christian community as a lot of epistles were written by early Church fathers. There are several sources to read these writings. You can read a lot of those writings available under the name of Pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha and Sacred Writings. You can read the 38 volumes of writings from the early Church fathers online also.

It’s kind of naive to think the Bible was written at once by the group of authors who provided the individual books and letters to those individual Churches. In those days, it would have taken a year or more just to have scribed the entire Bible and that would be if someone worked on it everyday, all day long, for just one Bible. The printing press was not invented until the 1500s, I believe it was.

There is written evidence in the scriptures to support the Catholic belief of oral tradition.
1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you.
2Th 2:15 (2:14) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.
2Th 3:6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition which they have received of us.
Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my word shall not pass away.
Paul records words of Jesus not found in the Gospels
Act 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring you ought to support the weak and to remember the word of the Lord Jesus, how he said: It is a more blessed thing to give, rather than to receive.
2Ti 1:13 Hold the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me: in faith and in the love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also.
2Pe 1:20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel hath been preached unto you.
Rom 10:17 Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.
1Co 15:1 Now I make known unto you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received and wherein you stand.
1Co 15:2 By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.
Mar 16:15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.
That seems to me to be a lot of scriptures supporting oral tradition. Why is it someone who claims Sola Scriptura would reject all those scriptures when there doesn’t seem to be any scriptures supporting their belief?

Please, can you provide scripture or other evidence that Jesus taught Sola Scriptura?

Have you ever noticed Jesus did not write or have anything scribed? Jesus was the word.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
 
Luther initially thought Pope Leo was a good man, shocked by the truth of Leo’s complicity Luther really had no other direction to go.
I don’t understand why you think he couldn’t dissent in obedience. Very well demonstrated method of reform in the Church before Luther. The developement of the monastic life is an example of dissent against a corrupt priesthood forming dynastic power. Obedient dissent promotes resolution and in the end strengthens the bonds between those in authority and the dissenters no matter who was right or wrong.
 
I don’t understand why you think he couldn’t dissent in obedience. Very well demonstrated method of reform in the Church before Luther. The developement of the monastic life is an example of dissent against a corrupt priesthood forming dynastic power. Obedient dissent promotes resolution and in the end strengthens the bonds between those in authority and the dissenters no matter who was right or wrong.
Excommunication kind of put a damper on his dissent while remaining in the fold!
 
I’m sorry, but will you explain how you interpret this to support sola scriptura (Bible alone)?

God Bless,
Prodigal Son1
Sola scriptura does not ignore Christian history and tradition; rather it views scripture as the final authority on matters of doctrine. It is self-authenticating and clear.
 
Luther never killed anyone – but yes when free of the Roman church there was a short revolt were many were killed (which Luther was himself sickened by). May I ask, how many were killed in the Inquisition?

Do you think revolution is ever an easy or painless endeavor? Essentially your argument is the pinnacle of straw man arguments. I fail to see the relevance of any of this.

Frankly I like to see when someone who disagrees with my view resorts to dragging the straw men out of closet 😃
Luther was sickened after he already ordered them to be killed. He was sickened many years later and after his place was secure. Who wouldn’t be sickened if you started the Reformation than ordered 100,000 of your own followers to be murdered? Remember his focus was upon himself. He ran and hid from the Church as he was afraid of persecution. That is my point concerning John the Baptist and other martyrs. He did not have the faith to be martyred. I am not stating that I have that great a faith; however, for one to change the faith of the Church do you not think he would have that faith? Do you not believe if God had bestowed upon him enlightenment to change all Christendom that he would not have had this faith?

The inquisitions killed 5,000 people over hundreds of years. The vast majority were during the Spanish Inquisition which the Pope issued a Papal Bull against. I am refuting the above statement not to make the Church to appear righteous as even 5,000 deaths over hundreds of years is not good. I only want people to know facts about the Church. The Church can with stand the sins we have committed.

My point again though is not that Pope’s are sinless. Papal Infallibility is required exactly because they do sin. Pope’s are sinners and some have made large failures. The teaching of scripture through the stain of original sin does not work. God has to grant the grace to protect his teachings. Does he do this through personal interpretation or through his Church? He does it via his Church. Personal interpretation has been proven wrong so many times. (I agree that the Holy Sprit does interact with individuals on a limited basis. I am refuting that individuals can interpet the teachings for all mankind.) The history of the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the number of Protestant religions demonstrate that free will and choice are part of man as he reads the Bible. As free will and choice are included and he reads the Bible through eyes that have original sin he can not fully comprehend the teachings. Papal Infallibility is required because the world is driven by sin and only God’s grace can protect his teachings. He does this through Papal Infallibility.
 
Only the first Crusade was in response to the call for help from Byzantium. I think there were at least seven crusades, and none of the others were noble in motive. It was a pure desire for power and conquest; and it was quite the blood bath.

Look, I don’t like reaching back a thousand years in history to recall the plunder of our ancestors. I’m of western European decent so my great great great (maybe a few more greats) grandfathers were probably over there too (I guess they fared well, since I’m here). 🙂

However, I see no sense in discussing the fact that a revolt occurred as a result of Lutheran doctrine. Frankly, Luther was not a man who liked the idea of rebellion. He had a distaste for the Anabaptists for example because he viewed them as rebels for rebellions sake. Rather, Luther was a priest, a man of peace, who fought with pen and paper. Certainly he could not have known what he started.

Luther initially thought Pope Leo was a good man, shocked by the truth of Leo’s complicity Luther really had no other direction to go. His 95 thesis became a freight train with no brakes after he nailed them to the church door. They were printed in mass almost immediately and that’s it, the momentum couldn’t be stopped.

When he said to his inquisitors “here I stand, I can do no other” (when he refused to recant), and the German princes ultimately stood up to their ruler, that was all she wrote.

It was a fantastic moment in history, even from a secular standpoint. In my undergrad years I wasn’t very Christian, and I still loved the reformation history. I was more attuned to guys like Nietzsche in college – no one would have guessed I was one of the elect (surely not me anyway). 🙂
The first crusade was a result of Muslims murdering and butchering Christian citizens making pilgrimages to the Holy Land. The term butchering is not an understatement. They were murdering Christians in the most horrific ways. It was thought to be a noble cause to protect Christians trying to see were Christ was born and died.

Let us put this into context, remember the entire Muslim world was Christian. Muhammad was a conqueror that forced these areas to convert to be Muslim. Muslim continued to force their way towards the west. At times the west was threatened by being totally conquered by the Muslim world. (How did we react after 911?) The Spanish Inquisition actually began out of fear of other religions. (Granted much of their focus was on converted Jews.) The Muslim world was not full of peace loving people that were innocent. With that said most of the Crusades were started with an intent to free the Holy Land. Again because the Muslim world was murdering innocent Christian citizens making pilgrimages to the Holy Land. Once started individuals that actually lead the Crusades often did horrendous acts that can not be forgiven. As in war both sides committed these acts, the fourth Crusade probably being the worst example for Christendom.

How is Luther’s 95 Thesis a great moment in history? He did not separate Church and State as many claim. The Germans actually ingrained this false doctrine into their politics. The German princes did not act out of love for God. Their actions were totally political in motive and had nothing to do with righteousness. Luther knew this and worked with them out of self preservation and ego.

Others within the Church understood the errors the Church and were committed to Church reform. Note the indulgences that Luther was so vehemently against were for building a Church. The Church was not selling indulgences for personal wealth. With that said there were problems with lavishness within Rome. That is for sure and is clearly documented.

Some also believe that Luther was the first to begin translation of the Bible into other languages. This is not true. The Catholic Church had already translated the Bible into many different languages. If I recall correctly about 10 or 12 by the time Luther began his translation. The Church was already proceeding down this road and were not holding the Bible hostage as is often portrayed.

Many peasants were murdered. The Protestant’s immediately started inquisitions of their own. One of which was started by Calvin as he ordered the murder of more than one person. He did not reach the level of the Church because he was only in control of one little city. If he would have been in control of a country he would have reached proportionate levels of murder. To not acknowledge this is to refute history. (Note what was stated about his wanting to reduce the charge against one person is true.) He however stood against others and wished their murders.

We now have thousands of denominations not understanding the Bible and making up there own religion as they go. Even Protestants have to admit that some supposed Christian religions are very far away from Christ’s teachings and place some of their members in a position of grave matter. How is this good?

I agree at times Luther lost control of the Reformation he started. He however, did not act piously during much of the early part of the Reformation and partook of terrible crimes that one would seemed hard to justify.

Again this post is not to show that people within the Church is perfect. We are far from perfect. It is to clarify points.
 
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