Let me help you since you don’t know how to make distinctions, John 20:23 is no speaking of a spiritual gift that is given to the church by either God, Christ or Holy Spirit!John 20:23
If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
Although I disagree, since we consider ordination to be a gift as well (a sacramental one), it is more a statement of authority vested in them by Christ. This is a ministry that is part of their duties as ordained persons. This same authority, vested in them by Christ, was passed on to the Bishops and elders that were ordained. So it is both a gift and an office.Let me help you since you don’t know how to make distinctions, John 20:23 is no speaking of a spiritual gift that is given to the church by either God, Christ or Holy Spirit!
You don’t always need people to tell you their sin to know that someone has committed a sin. There are tons on criminals who have been found guilty of a crime (and while there are serious issues with our criminal justice system) and yet they still maintain their innocence. Hitler did not have to “confess” one of his greatest sins for us to know what it is. So John 20:23 is not talking about and doesn’t layout a system akin to “confession” and doesn’t call upon just the “ordained”.So, how were the Apostles to retain or remit sins, if sins were not confessed to them?
How do you know the state of Hilter’s soul at the moment of death?
One mustn’t take such generalisations too literally. In Lk 7:28, Jesus said of John the Baptist that “among those born of women no one is greater than John.” Wasn’t Jesus born of a woman?Just a thought, it is written, ‘What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.”’ (Rom 3:9-12 NASB). There is an exception to the “all have sinned”, and that is found in 2 Cor 5:21 (He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.), which is speaking of Jesus. The Scriptures make no other exception for being without sin. Yet, the Catholic Church says, "The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege from almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin (CCC 491). How is this tradition made dogma NOT contrary to the written Word of God? (Just something to ponder, as this is not the topic of the thread.)
JL: How often do you wash your wife in water and then preach the word to her? Your own post in verse 27 tells you Christ is speaking of the Church.Ephesians 5:25-28 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might [g]sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.
You are correct it doesn’t say “washing in water then preaching the word”. It does say with the washing of water by the word. It is both with the washing of water by the word.You did not pay attention to the words, it says “washing of water by the word”, no “washing in water then preaching the word”.
JL: Scripture doesn’t say You wash your wife by the word. Scripture says as the verses you posted, 26 that He might [g]sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish[/b].You wash your wife by the word by being the spiritual head of your household just as Jesus is the head of the church, and you speak the word of God to her when dealing with all situations as the spiritual head of the family just as Christ gives His word to the church since He is the spiritual head of the church.
This is what we would call an ANALOGY: Christ is the husband and the church is the wife. The mention of “washing” is not referencing baptism.
So if I was to follow your logic and interpretation, then husbands should be baptizing their wives with water and the Word?Christ’s sanctifies and cleanses the Church with the washing of water by the word
Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the Church even to giving their life for their wife. Christ gave Himself on the cross for the Church, His Bride, that He might sanctify and cleanse her, the Church, with the washing of water by the word. It is with both water and word. With washing of water by the word by which Christ sanctifies and cleanses His bride in water baptism and His Word. Just as the scripture you posted tell us.
[Jms5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.]
The sacrament of anointing forgives sin even if the person is not able to confess to the elder. Confess one to another is all in the same context of the elder’s anointing of the sick. Individuals can forgive another person but they cannot remit or retain sin before God, only God can do that and he does so through the sacrament of reconciliation. God also remits sin with the anointing of the sick and baptism.
I didn’t say the priest absolved anyone in Jms5:14-16 as it is the sacrament of anointing of the sick, and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. If the person is able to confess then the priest would hear his confession in the sacrament of reconciliation and remit or absolve his sin.This is all made up. The Scripture says NOTHING about sins being absolved by a priest or elder in this or any other Scripture.
When and how do Seven Day Adventist confess their personal sins one to another? .Verse 16 clearly says to tell your sins to one another not to priest or elders.
I never said it was the sacrament of reconciliation those are your words not mine. However you are correct that does not a sacrament of reconciliation make. It’s the sacrament of anointing of the sick, which forgives sin if unable to confess.Verse 14-15 is speaking to healing of the sick, so unless you are saying that everyone who goes to confession is sick, this does not a sacrament of reconciliation make.
If your ability to follow logic is this poor, maybe you should not even try?So if I was to follow your logic and interpretation, then husbands should be baptizing their wives with water and the Word?
It is quite plain. I can’t tell if you are really cognitively impaired, and can’t get it, or deliberately obtuse. Either way, you say you have not come here to get Catholic answers. Why are you here?Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the Church even to giving their life for their wife.
Wow, that comment makes you look as intellectual as the picture of the ogre you just posted. Is that a self portrait of how you look when you can’t come up with any sound answers. I’m definitely NOT looking to you for any answers.It is quite plain. I can’t tell if you are really cognitively impaired, and can’t get it, or deliberately obtuse. Either way, you say you have not come here to get Catholic answers. Why are you here?
I’m not Seventh Day Adventist so I don’t know what they do in their church.When and how do Seven Day Adventist confess their personal sins one to another? .
Again, these verses never make any mention of the elders being directed to absolve anyone’s sin. You will not find any directive in the NT where you are told to go to elders of the church so that your sins could be absolved.Verse 16 clearly says to tell your sins to one another not to priest or elders.
It is fortunate that Catholics are not restricted to the practice of extracting doctrine from verses of Scripture! Even so, it seems odd that even you would be unable to reconcile this concept with other verses that talk about forgiveness of sins.Again, these verses never make any mention of the elders being directed to absolve anyone’s sin.
No. Instead we find Jesus instructing His Apostles upon giving them the authority to forgive and retain sins. How did you imagine this would happen if no one confessed their sins?You will not find any directive in the NT where you are told to go to elders of the church so that your sins could be absolved.
Wow, you’re still trying to rationalize with the same tired thinking…Again, these verses never make any mention of the elders being directed to absolve anyone’s sin.
Perhaps if you actually read your Bible you wouldn’t have to look elsewhere for answers.
You should thank God for grace.
You are not insulting me or Protestants with this statement, you are insulting God and His Word. You’re saying His Word is not good enough.medwigel said:It is fortunate that Catholics are not restricted to the practice of extracting doctrine from verses of Scripture!
Again, you should be thanking God for His grace since He will not hold your asinine statement against you.
Actually, I have no need to rationalize anything. God’s revelation is as far above my rationality as the heavens are above the earth!Wow, you’re still trying to rationalize with the same tired thinking…
I do not expect to find all the answers in the Bible, because I know that the Bible was never intended to be a complete explanation of the faith. This is why Jesus established a Church, to be the pillar and ground of the Truth.Perhaps if you actually read your Bible you wouldn’t have to look elsewhere for answers.
Indeed! I thank God for grace!You should thank God for grace.
No, I am saying that God’s word is not limited to Scripture.You are not insulting me or Protestants with this statement, you are insulting God and His Word. You’re saying His Word is not good enough.
I do agree that it is not wise to attempt to extract the doctrines of the faith from the pages of Scripture. I think using such language is in poor taste, however. It demonstrates your level of frustration. I can see why you are frustrated. You are unable to comply with the Apostolic command:He will not hold your asinine statement against you.
What a hypocrite1 Peter 3:15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;
Aren’t you the one who started with the insults? Who you calling frustrated? You seem to be the one who’s flustered because I don’t agree with your flawed thinking. You are the one who devolved into name calling.It is quite plain. I can’t tell if you are really cognitively impaired, and can’t get it, or deliberately obtuse. Either way, you say you have not come here to get Catholic answers. Why are you here?
You also have “traditions”. Sola Scriptura is such a “tradition”. It is a tradition of men. It is not found anywhere in the Holy Writing.And you talk about me and traditions
That’s rich.
God has not given everyone the same intellectual capacity. Maybe your are constitutionally incapable of grasping what you are being told? This is not an insult. God loves everyone He creates, even those who are intellectually lacking.Aren’t you the one who started with the insults?
I am not in a position to “correct” you, medwigel. I don’t know you. I cannot come to you as a brother and tell you your fault. All I can do is respond to your posts. For all I know you are a make believe character that is role playing here on CAF.You are the one who devolved into name calling.
Your attempt at “correction” is asinine in light of your earlier above comment.
Your attempts at so called clarification are pathetic and anemic. I would say you should get an infusion of the Word, but that doesn’t seem to have much value to you.Aren’t you the one who started with the insults?
I don’t know how to interpret dimwitted comments and have no desire to lower my knowledge to your bargain basement understanding.
Why do you feel the need to keep responding to my posts? If you are too narrow minded in your thinking and unable to comprehend basic Scripture when it’s presented to you then get off the forum.
You obviously have an inane ability when it comes to rightly dividing the Word of Truth, but like I said before, at least you have God’s grace.