Some think Matthew 4:4 is teaching sola Scriptura

[medwigel]

Have a heart, medwigel! those translators were doing the best they could with what they had! It is not fair to scapegoat them for missing the mark!

Besides, there is no deficiency in Scripture. I think you have forgotten, the New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

You’re not following your own bouncing ball. You question the translations

so the translations done by multiple scholars is wrong…got it

but then you say there is no deficiency in Scripture

Besides, there is no deficiency in Scripture.

Double minded much?
James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

I gave it to you in the King James version, hopefully this is acceptable to you, but then again, who knows.

 

[guanophore]

You question the translations

Not all of them, surely! And not all parts of them all, surely!

Some translations depart from what the Apostles believed and taught.

but then you say there is no deficiency in Scripture

guanophore:

Exactly! Only in the human custom of adding and subtracting the original meaning.

I gave it to you in the King James version, hopefully this is acceptable to you, but then again, who knows.

Not really, no.

But I doubt you will find any translations that back up your assertion that sins have somehow disappeared (were taken away).

 

[medwigel]

I gave it to you in the King James version, hopefully this is acceptable to you, but then again, who knows.

RIF

 

[medwigel]

But I doubt you will find any translations that back up your assertion that sins have somehow disappeared (were taken away).

Hebrews 10: 16“This is the covenant that I will make with them in the days to come, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their hearts
and write them on their minds.”
17 And then he says, “I will not remember their sins and evil deeds any longer.” 18 So when these have been forgiven, an offering to take away sins is no longer needed.

Hebrews 9:25 The Jewish high priest goes into the Most Holy Place every year with the blood of an animal. But Christ did not go in to offer himself many times, 26 for then he would have had to suffer many times ever since the creation of the world. Instead, now when all ages of time are nearing the end, he has appeared once and for all, to remove sin through the sacrifice of himself.

What, what’s that you say…did you just say there’s no Scripture that says that sins have been taken away?

 

[MT1926]

This is the old covenant when we lived under the law. In the new covenant we now live under grace through faith.
You can’t live under the law and under grace at the same time.
You should read Galatians 3 were Paul speaks about the law your are referencing vs faith.

Don’t agree. Jesus himself said, in your Amplified version…

“Do not think that I came to do away with or undo the Law [of Moses] or the [writings of the] Prophets; I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Jesus completely fulfilled the Mosaic Law and OT prophecies. Thus we know that the Old Covenant isn’t done away with, it is perfected and transformed into the New Covenant. Like I said there is no longer need for animal sacrifice because this was perfected in the once for all Sacrifice of Christ. The moral law (Ten Commandments, etc…) wasn’t done away with it was retained and perfected by Christ as LOVE (of God and neighbor).

Galatians 3:10 Those who depend on obeying the Law live under a curse. For the scripture says, “Whoever does not always obey everything that is written in the book of the Law is under God’s curse!”

St. Paul isn’t telling us we no longer need to fulfill the Law. He is telling us, the exact same thing Jesus taught, that we must have restored relationship with God in order to fulfill the Law the right way, the way Jesus did, the only way that it was ever meant to be fulfilled, by our love.

He isn’t saying you can’t live under the law and under grace at the same time. He is saying if you embrace the law and think you can do this on your own your wrong. You are reading way more into this verse than St. Paul is speaking about.

You can’t refer to and follow only parts of the Levitical law and ignore other parts. So if you want to follow the ordinances laid out in Leviticus 5:5-6 then you must follow ALL of the laws, not just the ones you want to cherry pick (see verse 10).

This is not what verse 10 is saying you are reading this into the verse to try and make your point. St. Paul isn’t giving the Galatians the option of obeying “ALL of the law” or obeying Grace. He is simple stating you can’t even attempt to obey the Law without Grace. The Ten Commandments are under the old covenant law. Do you honestly believe he is telling the Galatians the you are now under grace so you no longer have to obey the law which includes the Ten Commandments feel free to go out and worship any god you want because the free gift of forgiveness of all your sins covers that one to.

God Bless

 

[jlhargus]

jlhargus:

That’s the worst cop out I have ever seen.

Paul speaking of a believer’s sins evidently believed he could forgive the believer’s sins in the person of Christ, just as the Church teaches today.

[2Cor2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;]

[2Cor2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. 7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. 9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. 10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;]

Um, have you really read the passage? Perhaps if should give it to you in the Good News translation of the Bible:

2 Corinthians 2:5 Now, if anyone has made somebody sad, he has not done it to me but to all of you—in part, at least. (I say this because I do not want to be too hard on him.) 6 It is enough that this person has been punished in this way by most of you. 7 Now, however, you should forgive him and encourage him, in order to keep him from becoming so sad as to give up completely. 8 And so I beg you to let him know that you really do love him. 9 I wrote you that letter because I wanted to find out how well you had stood the test and whether you are always ready to obey my instructions. 10 **When you forgive people for what they have done, I forgive them too. For when I forgive—if, indeed, I need to forgive anything—I do it in Christ’s presence because of you, 11 in order to keep Satan from getting the upper hand over us; for we know what his plans are

Paul is talking about believers forgiving each other, and when Paul talks about him giving forgiveness he does it in the PRESENCE" of Christ, not on behalf of Christ! In verse 10 Paul implies that he may not even need to forgive the trespass.
Paul is giving us a framework on how to approach people who have wronged us (see verse 5)

The cop out here is you ignoring the fact that Paul is commanding believers to forgive each other; there is not a command given to just priests or church leaders only. This Scripture makes no reference to people confessing their sins to Paul our anyone else for forgiveness. Paul is calling us to offer forgiveness to the person who has wronged us and to restore our relationship with them and encourage them (see verse 7) not the priest.

You have proved my point it was an individual they were speaking of. You ever put it in bold print verse 7. I put in bold print in your own post verse 11 I do it in Christ’s presence. Evidently Paul believes he can forgive sins in person or presents of Christ. Can’t you see what twist and gymnastics you go through to make scripture say what you want it to say.

 

[MT1926]

All of these high priest you are referring to served under the Levitical law, and of these men the Bible says:
Hebrews 7:28 The Law of Moses appoints men who are imperfect to be high priests; but God’s promise made with the vow, which came later than the Law, appoints the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Not sure what you are saying here.

You asked how I came to the conclusion that we can have Liturgical Priests and a High Priest.

I was simply pointing to these verses in the Bible that show us the phrase High Priest in the Bible means the Top ranking Priest. Or the one in charge of the other priests.

They fact that these Priests were under Levitical law proves nothing on your part. I’m simply showing you how the Bible defines the term High Priest.

You are the one that needs to prove that the New Testament changed the definition of High Priest to mean “ONLY PRIEST”.

As for Hebrews 7:28…I totally agree with you that Jesus is our High Priest. I never once claimed a man here on earth was our High Priest. However, once again there is nothing here that would lead us to believe, you man made tradition, that Jesus is our ONLY PRIEST.

Jesus being our ONLY PRIEST is no where to be found in scripture.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

There you go, I did the research for you.

How does this quot prove that you are a Critical Thinker?

This is Critical thinking…

John 20:21-23 Amplified Bible (AMP)
21 Then Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you [as My representatives].” 22 And when He said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone they are forgiven [because of their faith]; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained [and remain unforgiven because of their unbelief].”

We can plainly see that Jesus is talking about forgiveness of sins here. So we need to keep this context in mind when we read the verses.

As the Father has sent Me… How did the Father send the Son? With the Authority to forgive sins, which is in line with the context in question here.

Sure the AMP adds the words "as My Representatives, a person chosen or appointed to act or speak for another. Jesus chose the Apostles to act and speak for Him. Basically, He just gave the Apostles His Authority here on earth. This is very Catholic.

He breathed on them. Hold the phone here. God breathed. This has got to be important because it sure doesn’t happen to often in the Bible. Let’s see God breathed into Adam and created man. In 2 Timothy we find out that all Scripture is God-breathed, so God’s breath created Scripture. So what did Jesus create when He breathed on the Apostles? From a Catholic standpoint we believe He created the New Covenant Priesthood. If your Critical thinking comes up with another possibility I am willing to hear it, but to claim Jesus’ breath here signifies nothing, is ignoring a profound Biblical fact.

If you forgive the sins of anyone they are forgiven [because of their faith]. Jesus says if YOU FORGIVE the sins. He is speaking to the Apostles, who He just breathed on and says this. The addition of the words because of their faith doesn’t change the initial meaning of the central context. This verse is about sin not faith. In my mind it just conveys even more to the Apostles. Not only did Jesus give the Apostles the Authority to forgive sins but He gave them the ability, through the Holy Spirit, to know if the person had true Christian faith and was worthy of forgiveness. WOW this is amazing, I kinda like this AMP Bible.

if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained [and remain unforgiven because of their unbelief].”

Jesus says if YOU RETAIN. The extra wording takes nothing away from the meaning. The Apostles know that the person is in a state of unbelief and are not worthy of forgiveness. AMEN, I have no objections. In the end there is no way to get around the words YOU FORGIVE and YOU RETAIN. Jesus breathed this Authority into the New Covenant Ministerial Priesthood.

Would love to hear your thoughts on the verse and how you come to the conclusion you do. Like I pointed out even the AMP is still in line with Catholic Theology.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

The free gift of forgiveness and grace is coming from Christ not from the confessional booth.

I never said it was coming from the confessional booth. Sorry your analogy is quite confusing. Do you just walk up to the ice cream store and grab the free ice cream or does the person inside offer it to you?

If you want the free ice cream you have go to the source of the offer, and the source for forgiveness and grace is Christ, not the priest in the confessional booth.

This got me thinking. How do you know you made it to Christ (the Source)? Let’s use some of that Critical thinking here. How did Jesus set it up that you can definitively know when you go to the source for forgiveness that you are forgiven? What evidence do you have that you are doing what Jesus wants you to do for forgiveness and you aren’t just telling yourself that you are forgiven?

Like I said for thousands of years God gave His people a visible sign (ritual) that they would know their sins were forgiven by God. Why would all of the sudden Jesus change this that you can decide on your own if you are forgiven or not?

Paul says Christ has forgiven ALL of our sins, no some or half or past- no, Christ forgave all our sins. Christ made a way for us even before we believed in Him!

I’m sure we could throw verses at each other all day long. Instead, could you explain why you believe St. Paul is saying ALL means every sin you might ever commit? Sure I agree that Jesus’ grace is complete and all reaching. Yes I agree that His one act covers ALL of our sins and not just ours but those of the entire world.

However, you yourself agree that this still needs to be applied to the believer. Believing this continues to apply to believers regardless of their future actions makes no Biblical sense.

The Bible makes it clear over and over that IF WE CONFESS, IF WE REPENT. You can’t confess to a sin you haven’t committed yet. Sure I admit God already knows what that sin is and Jesus already paid the price for the sin you haven’t committed yet. But God also knows if you confessed and repented of that sin, which is Jesus basis for applying His work on the Cross to you.

Just because St. Paul says ALL here doesn’t give us the right to ignore the rest of the Bible that clearly states we must repent.

God Bless

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel. You mentioned (and highlighted) . . . .

Hebrews 9:25 The Jewish high priest goes into the Most Holy Place every year with the blood of an animal. But Christ did not go in to offer himself many times, 26 for then he would have had to suffer many times ever since the creation of the world. Instead, now when all ages of time are nearing the end, he has appeared once and for all, to remove sin through the sacrifice of himself.

But the issue being discussed here is not if Jesus has appeared once and for all, to remove sin through the sacrifice of himself. He has.

The question IS . . . HOW does Jesus remove that sin? By Calvary to be sure (that is the moment) . . . . BUT . . . .

You reduce Jesus’ words down to Calvary ALONE.

Why not just accept ALL of the words of God (the ongoing PROCESS that comes after the moment)?

Why not just believe ALL the relevant Scripture passages? . . . .

JOHN 20:22b-23 22 he breathed on them,
and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23
IF YOU forgive the SINS of any, THEY ARE forgiven;
IF YOU RETAIN the SINS of any, THEY ARE retained.”

(emphasis mine)

 

[guanophore]

17 And then he says, “I will not remember their sins and evil deeds any longer.” 18 So when these have been forgiven, an offering to take away sins is no longer needed.

Not remembering our sins, and accepting the offering that cancels their debt against us does not mean that sin no longer occurs, or that sin does not still separate us from God. The nature of sin has not changed. Sin has always separated man from God.

Hebrews 9:25 The Jewish high priest goes into the Most Holy Place every year with the blood of an animal. But Christ did not go in to offer himself many times, 26 for then he would have had to suffer many times ever since the creation of the world. Instead, now when all ages of time are nearing the end, he has appeared once and for all, to remove sin through the sacrifice of himself.

This is applied to believers in baptism, and in reconciliation. His death for us on the cross does not stop us from sinning, nor does it stop sin from separating us from Himself. This is why Catholics call being in a right relationship with God being in a “state of grace”. When we have received His grace, we are able to benefit from the penalty He paid. Those who do not receive it will not benefit.

ps, good job on finding the right verses!

What, what’s that you say…did you just say there’s no Scripture that says that sins have been taken away?

No, I said the verse you offered did not say that (the one in Galatians).

 

[jlhargus]

So you are saying everyone is forgiven of their sins regardless of whether they repent or not? That doesn’t sound right?

Yes that’s right. Forgiveness is a free gift from Christ. Do you have to work for a gift? No you don’t. If you have to work for something they what you get in return is a reward, not a gift. A gift is given freely.

[Lk13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.] Repent is throughout the NT.

[2Cor5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one may receive the things done in his body according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad]

According to scripture we will be judged and receive our reward according to our deeds, whether good or evil. We don’t earn a reward it is merited by fulfilling the conditions of the promise for the reward.

[Rms5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.]

[Rv22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.]

[Mt16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.]

[Rms2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,]

[1Cor3:8 now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.]

 

[medwigel]

[2Cor5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one may receive the things done in his body according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad]

According to scripture we will be judged and receive our reward according to our deeds, whether good or evil. We don’t earn a reward it is merited by fulfilling the conditions of the promise for the reward.

Are you equating judgment to forgiveness?
I talking about forgiveness not judgement.

 

[medwigel]

Not remembering our sins, and accepting the offering that cancels their debt against us does not mean that sin no longer occurs, or that sin does not still separate us from God.

When did I ever say that sin no longer occurs or exists?

 

[medwigel]

Hebrews 9:25 The Jewish high priest goes into the Most Holy Place every year with the blood of an animal. But Christ did not go in to offer himself many times, 26 for then he would have had to suffer many times ever since the creation of the world. Instead, now when all ages of time are nearing the end, he has appeared once and for all, to remove sin through the sacrifice of himself.

In an earlier post did I not say that grace was given to those who believe in Him?

 

[medwigel]

Like I said for thousands of years God gave His people a visible sign (ritual) that they would know their sins were forgiven by God. Why would all of the sudden Jesus change this that you can decide on your own if you are forgiven or not?

So you are saying we should still be following the law of Moses, yet this is what Paul has to say about the law:

Galatians 3:24 And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through faith. 25 Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us.

So Paul tells us that the law was there as a teacher, to teach us about Christ before He came; in essence the law was to prepare us for Christ’s coming. Now that Christ has come the time for the law is over and we now live in the dispensation of faith.
So we are now called to live by faith not by the law, so it is by faith that we are now forgiven, not by the law.
So you ask how do I know I’m forgiven, I have faith in the sacrifice that Christ has made for me.

 

[guanophore]

When did I ever say that sin no longer occurs or exists?

If Jesus took away sins, how is it they can still exist?

That’s what happens when you actually open the Bible.

medwigel, no one who has accepted the Apostolic faith will open their bible and see some of things you see.

Your interpretations are contrary to what the Apostles believed and taught.

In an earlier post did I not say that grace was given to those who believe in Him?

Yes, but people who believe in Him still commit sins.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So, if Jesus took away all the sin, how can it still be here?

Galatians 3:24 And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through faith. 25 Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us.

So Paul tells us that the law was there as a teacher, to teach us about Christ before He came; in essence the law was to prepare us for Christ’s coming. Now that Christ has come the time for the law is over and we now live in the dispensation of faith.

Here you are adding things to the scriptures again! Nothing says that the law is “over”. It says we are no longer “under law”. We are under grace. The commandments (not “suggestions”) are fulfilled in Christ. Jesus never set aside the commandments. We fulfill them in Him, by grace, through faith.

So we are now called to live by faith not by the law, so it is by faith that we are now forgiven, not by the law.

No one was ever forgiven by following the Law in the first place. Those who followed the law did so as we do today, by grace, through faith. This is how Jesus kept the Law.

If the “law was over” then why did the Apostles still follow it, knowing they were under grace?

The commandments are God’s instructions for us for right living, and His commandments are not burdensome.

So you ask how do I know I’m forgiven, I have faith in the sacrifice that Christ has made for me.

This has no relationship to what you are saying about the law being “over”. The Law was never a source of forgiveness.

 

[medwigel]

This has no relationship to what you are saying about the law being “over”. The Law was never a source of forgiveness.

So why were they offering rams and sheep and goats and bulls? Just for the fun of slaughtering animals?

 

[guanophore]

So why were they offering rams and sheep and goats and bulls? Just for the fun of slaughtering animals?

I think you are not understanding that Jesus upheld the Commandments, without extending the Levitical Laws.

Jesus is the fullfillment of the Law. He never set aside the 10 Commandments.

And those that were forgiven under the Law were forgiven by grace, through faith. They complied with the sacrificed because they were commanded, and they were in grace, and full of faith.

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices which are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near.[a] 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered? If the worshipers had once been cleansed, they would no longer have any consciousness of sin. 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin year after year. 4 For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins. Heb. 10

The sacrifices did not take away sins.

 

[medwigel]

The sacrifices did not take away sins.

The sacrifices were made as way to atone for their sin, but you’re right, it was not enough to take it away until Jesus came (the Lamb of God) and offered Himself as the ultimate sacrifice. Only His sacrifice was able to take away and atone for all sin once and for all.

Jesus is the fullfillment of the Law. He never set aside the 10 Commandments.

The 10 Commandments are a summary of the Levitical laws. All the Levitical laws are a detailed breakdown of the 10 commandments therefore the 10 commandments represents the law as well.