Some think Matthew 4:4 is teaching sola Scriptura

[medwigel]

So you are saying everyone is forgiven of their sins regardless of whether they repent or not? That doesn’t sound right?

Yes that’s right. Forgiveness is a free gift from Christ. Do you have to work for a gift? No you don’t. If you have to work for something they what you get in return is a reward, not a gift.
A gift is given freely.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross

It is human nature to question anything good being given freely, but it is true. Forgiveness is not only free, but Christ made a way for us even before we accepted Him.
Christ gave us this gift freely because He loves us. His gift of forgiveness is the GREATEST act of lover ever!!

Romans 5:7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Cathoholic]

MT1926 . . . .

So you are saying everyone is forgiven of their sins regardless of whether they repent or not? That doesn’t sound right?

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Medwigel . . .

Yes that’s right. Forgiveness is a free gift from Christ. Do you have to work for a gift? No you don’t. If you have to work for something they what you get in return is a reward, not a gift.
A gift is given freely.

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Taking this to its logical conclusion you don’t need faith either.

 

[medwigel]

Also, why would Jesus wanting us to confess our sins through the Apostles/Priests take anything away from His sacrifice? There’s a lot that Jesus doesn’t need us merr humans to do. But just cause Jesus doesn’t need us doesn’t prove He doesn’t want us.

First and foremost, there is nowhere in the Bible where it delineates that you must confess your sins to a priest so that your sins can be forgiven.
Second, the Bible tells us that what Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross took away all sin, for those who believe, once and for all. Unlike the old days where people had to constantly go to the high priest to make sacrifices on the person’s behave to forgive their sins, Jesus now serves as our high priest. So if Jesus is our high priest we no longer need the substitution of mortal priest to atone for our sins. Jesus has taken care of our sins once and for all.

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Jesus’ sacrifice is complete and when you go to a priest to forgive your sins you are in essence saying that Jesus’ sacrifice was not enough.

Don’t you want Jesus as your High Priest?

 

[medwigel]

I noticed you skipped my first question. So one again "…

I’ve heard this line of defense before, but how are you coming to this conclusion?

I’m sure you also realize this was the very first command given to the Apostles after His resurrection. Why would you think Jesus would you think the first command from Jesus is meaningless?

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of anyone they are forgiven [because of their faith]; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained [and remain unforgiven because of their unbelief].”

 

[Cathoholic]

Medwigel . . .

So if Jesus is our high priest we no longer need the substitution of mortal priest to atone for our sins.

You are correct in what you affirm here (but incorrect in what you deny).

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Medwigel . . .

So if Jesus is our high priest we no longer need the substitution of mortal priest to atone for our sins.

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That’s WHY in the New Covenant, the Priest forgives
"in the PERSON of Christ" med.

Christ IS the Priest behind the priest.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Chr...AUIEigC&biw=768&bih=1024#imgrc=B6-fCwsJYh3wsM:

 

[MT1926]

Yes that’s right. Forgiveness is a free gift from Christ. Do you have to work for a gift? No you don’t. If you have to work for something they what you get in return is a reward, not a gift.
A gift is given freely.

Could you please explain how your next statement doesn’t contradict what you are claiming here?

Second, the Bible tells us that what Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross took away all sin, for those who believe, once and for all.

Why does the Bible state we have to believe? If we have to believe didn’t we just “PAY” for the free gift?

So do we even have to believe in Jesus to receive this free gift?

I mean if the gift is free and the gift was already given 2000 years ago and if I lift a single finger that would be evidence that I don’t believe the gift is free. Then the logical conclusion is to live my life the way I want, basically like the prodigal son, and in the end after I got my fill of the party my gift will be waiting their for me, regardless of whether or not I repent of being the prodigal son?

Do you not see the scriptural contradiction you are presenting here?

Sure I agree the gift of Grace is a free gift from God. However, that doesn’t mean we can trample that free gift. We still need to cooperate with Grace and follow Jesus’ plan for our salvation. Which includes the Sacraments. I feel sorry that you see the Sacraments as a barrier to the Love of Christ instead of part of the gift He has freely given us.

Jesus was only with humanity for 33 years. He left us the sacraments to allow us to experience His physical touch and presence now and in the generations to come.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

Jesus’ sacrifice is complete and when you go to a priest to forgive your sins you are in essence saying that Jesus’ sacrifice was not enough.

How so?

If you offend your spouse do you go ask them for forgiveness? I mean shouldn’t you believe that your sin against them was already forgiven and if you ask your spouse for forgiveness you would be admitting that Jesus sacrifice was not enough?

Don’t you want Jesus as your High Priest?

Of course Jesus is my High Priest.

Just curious how can Jesus be your High Priest if their are no longer any liturgical Priest below Him?

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of anyone they are forgiven [because of their faith]; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained [ and remain unforgiven because of their unbelief ].”

No where in John 20 does it say because of their faith or because of their unbelief. On what Scriptural basis are you adding these words to Scripture?

Why would Jesus say “IF YOU FORGIVE”?

I mean if I was an Apostle I would be scratching my head saying… yo Jesus why do you need me to forgive a sin that you already forgave? Not to mention what does their faith or unbelief have to do with any of this? I thought your sacrifice was a free gift that we didn’t have to do anything for or it wouldn’t be a free gift anymore?

Don’t you see the contradictions that occur when you try to come up with an excuse to deny Jesus teachings?

You need to open your mind and give an honest look at what you have been taught by your pastor. Your statements are full of contradictions and when taken to their logical conclusion make absolutely no sense.

God Bless

 

[jlhargus]

[2Cor2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;]

Paul is talking to laypeople about forgiving one another, not about priest forgiving people. The “ye” Paul is referring to is the people of Corinth and by extension all Christians.

That’s the worst cop out I have ever seen.

Paul speaking of a believer’s sins evidently believed he could forgive the believer’s sins in the person of Christ, just as the Church teaches today.

[2Cor2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;]

[2Cor2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. 7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. 9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. 10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;]

 

[medwigel]

That’s the worst cop out I have ever seen.

Paul speaking of a believer’s sins evidently believed he could forgive the believer’s sins in the person of Christ, just as the Church teaches today.

[2Cor2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;]

[2Cor2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. 7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. 9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. 10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;]

Um, have you really read the passage? Perhaps if should give it to you in the Good News translation of the Bible:

2 Corinthians 2:5 Now, if anyone has made somebody sad, he has not done it to me but to all of you—in part, at least. (I say this because I do not want to be too hard on him.) 6 It is enough that this person has been punished in this way by most of you. 7 Now, however, you should forgive him and encourage him, in order to keep him from becoming so sad as to give up completely. 8 And so I beg you to let him know that you really do love him. 9 I wrote you that letter because I wanted to find out how well you had stood the test and whether you are always ready to obey my instructions. 10 **When you forgive people for what they have done, I forgive them too. For when I forgive—if, indeed, I need to forgive anything—I do it in Christ’s presence because of you, 11 in order to keep Satan from getting the upper hand over us; for we know what his plans are

Paul is talking about believers forgiving each other, and when Paul talks about him giving forgiveness he does it in the PRESENCE" of Christ, not on behalf of Christ! In verse 10 Paul implies that he may not even need to forgive the trespass.
Paul is giving us a framework on how to approach people who have wronged us (see verse 5)

The cop out here is you ignoring the fact that Paul is commanding believers to forgive each other; there is not a command given to just priests or church leaders only. This Scripture makes no reference to people confessing their sins to Paul our anyone else for forgiveness. Paul is calling us to offer forgiveness to the person who has wronged us and to restore our relationship with them and encourage them (see verse 7) not the priest.

 

[medwigel]

Yes that’s right. Forgiveness is a free gift from Christ. Do you have to work for a gift? No you don’t. If you have to work for something they what you get in return is a reward, not a gift.
A gift is given freely.

You must believe in Christ because His promises are only for those who believe in Him. A Muslim, while he/she may be a good person, can’t receive forgiveness through Christ because they don’t believe in Him. You must become a part of the family in order to inherit the gift.

Just because something is free doesn’t mean you don’t have to take some steps to get it. For example, if your favorite ice cream store is offering free ice cream, you have to go to the store to get it. The fact that you had to get up, leave your house and perhaps wait on line doesn’t make the ice cream any less free, you just had to “reach out” to get it. If you choose not to go to the store the ice cream is still free, and it will still be there waiting for you to come.
So Jesus has made the gift of forgiveness freely available, the person just has to reach out and come to Jesus by faith.

 

[medwigel]

I mean if the gift is free and the gift was already given 2000 years ago and if I lift a single finger that would be evidence that I don’t believe the gift is free. Then the logical conclusion is to live my life the way I want, basically like the prodigal son, and in the end after I got my fill of the party my gift will be waiting their for me, regardless of whether or not I repent of being the prodigal son?

Do you not see the scriptural contradiction you are presenting here?

You are not the only one who had this question, and here is Paul’s answer to your supposition:

Romans 6:15 What, then? Shall we sin, because we are not under law but under God’s grace? By no means! 16 Surely you know that when you surrender yourselves as slaves to obey someone, you are in fact the slaves of the master you obey—either of sin, which results in death, or of obedience, which results in being put right with God. 17 But thanks be to God! For though at one time you were slaves to sin, you have obeyed with all your heart the truths found in the teaching you received. 18 You were set free from sin and became the slaves of righteousness. 19 (I use everyday language because of the weakness of your natural selves.) At one time you surrendered yourselves entirely as slaves to impurity and wickedness for wicked purposes. In the same way you must now surrender yourselves entirely as slaves of righteousness for holy purposes.

So as you can see, Paul is saying you can’t use the forgiveness you have through grace as a pass to sin and do whatever you want, but grace is still freely given nonetheless.

I feel sorry that you see the Sacraments as a barrier to the Love of Christ instead of part of the gift He has freely given us.

The barrier is when you create traditions and call them sacraments and place men as intermediaries between believers and Christ when the Bible never called for such a system. Forgiveness is freely given and you don’t need to go to someone to confer it.

 

[medwigel]

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of anyone they are forgiven [because of their faith]; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained [ and remain unforgiven because of their unbelief ].”

I quoted the Amplified version of the Bible. The Amplified Bible is designed to “amplify” the text by using additional words to bring out the intended meaning to present day text based on the original texts.
As we all know things can often get lost in translation, for example ancient Greek has 4 different words that all translate to just the word “love” in English. These 4 different words each refer to a particular type of love but when you translate it to English you loose that meaning because it all just becomes “love”.
This nuance in translation is what the Amplified Bible tries to address. So the words in the brackets are trying to convey the true meaning and intent from the original text.

 

[medwigel]

I mean if I was an Apostle I would be scratching my head saying… yo Jesus why do you need me to forgive a sin that you already forgave? Not to mention what does their faith or unbelief have to do with any of this? I thought your sacrifice was a free gift that we didn’t have to do anything for or it wouldn’t be a free gift anymore?

That’s right, you need to ask the question- if forgiveness is freely given then is Christ contradicting Himself in this verse, or does this verse mean something else?
If you choose to take this verse the way you are interpreting it, then grace is not a free gift and Christ is then a liar, or you can ask is there another meaning (this is where the Amplified version of the Bible can shed some light on the original meaning and context for the verse). Since God is not a man that He should lie, there must be more to that verse.

You need to open your mind and give an honest look at what you have been taught by your pastor. Your statements are full of contradictions and when taken to their logical conclusion make absolutely no sense.

My pastor has taught me to be a critical thinker and to study the Bible, and not just believe something because someone turned it into a sacrament or made it into a doctrine.
I have been taught not to trust in man’s traditions but in God’s word alone.

1 Corinthians 1:31 So then, as the scripture says, “Whoever wants to boast must boast of what the Lord has done.”

Don’t you want Jesus as your High Priest?

How did you come to this conclusion?

 

[guanophore]

Jesus has already forgiven them of their sins, they don’t need a man to validate their forgiveness. Jesus already forgave them freely, so they don’t need anyone to remit their sins.

Since we know that Jesus did not do anything without meaning and intention, and did not just produce useless words with no purpose, then it is curious that he would CHARGE the Apostles with the authority to remit sins, when this was not needed!

Jesus never said He would only remit your sins if you confess it to a priest;

No, and the Catholic Church does not claim otherwise. But He DID say that if sins were confessed, those given the authority to forgive them in His name could do so.

the forgiveness of sins is given freely without any conditions except that you be saved.

“except that…”

There are many conditions, medwigel. And your concept of salvation is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.

The sin being referred to is the sin of unbelief.

You have been taught to believe this , but the text does not say this.

Rationalized these verses that refer to Jesus having brothers and sisters

No, medwigel. We received our faith from the Apostles, who all knew Mary personally, and knew that Jesus was the only son of His mother.

You have been misled by people who created doctrines 1700 years after the New Testament was written.

The New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics! There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. Nothing in the Catholic faith can contradict it, because the contents come from the same Source.

 

[guanophore]

The Apostles are not needed to forgive sins because Jesus has already done this through His life, death and resurrection.

Then it is incumbent upon you to explain why Jesus gave them the authority to forgive and retain sins.

If Adam was able to bring sin into this world and no one had to validate sin,

This is a problem with logic. Nice try, though.

He does not need men to confer or validate this forgiveness upon others.

If this were true, then I am sure He would not have wasted His breath giving the Apostles the authority.

The power of the Blood of Christ is strong enough to forgive us all once and for all of all sin!

Indeed! We access this through Baptism, and if we sin after Baptism, then we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Christ gives us all the ministry of reconciliation, the priest doesn’t give that to us.

No. You have been taught to embrace this anti-Catholic view.

When Paul said “we” have been given the ministry of reconciliation, he was speaking of the Apostles.

since we are already forgiven there is no need for a priest to tell me to go say 3 Hail Mary and 1 Our Father for me to attain something that Christ has already given me.

You have just demonstrated that you do not understand reconciliation.

When you try to make me work for something I already have that’s called a con.

You seem to be saying that the Catholic faith is a “con”.

You seem to have this view because you don’t understand the Catholic faith.

it still does not call people to confess their sins in search of forgiveness.

What an odd thing to say? You accuse Catholics of ignoring scripture, but what are you doing?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[guanophore]

I am holding onto BIBLICAL traditions, you are the one who’s relying on outside sources and man made traditions.

Medwigel, if you think that the Catholic faith is unbiblical, and a “con” what are you doing on a Catholic forum? What is your purpose here? Do you wish to convert us all to be "biblical traditions

Yes that’s right.

If everyone’s sins are forgiven already, then everyone is going to heaven, so why do you need to convert us?

Taking this to its logical conclusion you don’t need faith either.

Medwigel clearly has some problems with thinking and logic.

the Bible tells us that what Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross took away all sin,

Really? where is that?

So if Jesus is our high priest we no longer need the substitution of mortal priest to atone for our sins.

Do you erroneously believe that the New Testament priesthood is the “substitution of a mortal priest to atone for sins”?

Do you think the OT priests atoned for sins?

Jesus’ sacrifice is complete and when you go to a priest to forgive your sins you are in essence saying that Jesus’ sacrifice was not enough.

Clearly you do not understand why Jesus created priests in the New Testament.

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of anyone they are forgiven [because of their faith]; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained [ and remain unforgiven because of their unbelief ].”

Ahhh! MORE words added to scripture!

Could you please explain how your next statement doesn’t contradict what you are claiming here?

I fear you might be expecting something from medwigel beyond his capacity.

Paul is commanding believers to forgive each other

Of course we need to forgive one another. This does not take the place of priests forgiving in the person of Christ.

This Scripture makes no reference to people confessing their sins to Paul our anyone else for forgiveness.

The sins have already been made known to Paul, and he wrote about them. He is forgiving them in the person of Christ.

Paul is calling us to offer forgiveness to the person who has wronged us and to restore our relationship with them and encourage them

Yes, of course. This does not equate to the priest forgiving in the person of Christ. Both things are true.

 

[medwigel]

Do you think the OT priests atoned for sins?

Clearly you’ve never read the Bible, no surprising.
Hebrews 7:26 Jesus, then, is the High Priest that meets our needs. He is holy; he has no fault or sin in him; he has been set apart from sinners and raised above the heavens. 27 He is not like other high priests; he does not need to offer sacrifices every day for his own sins first and then for the sins of the people. He offered one sacrifice, once and for all, when he offered himself. 28 The Law of Moses appoints men who are imperfect to be high priests; but God’s promise made with the vow, which came later than the Law, appoints the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

I would also show you Scripture in the Old Testament as well but that’s probably above your pay grade given your limited understanding.

the Bible tells us that what Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross took away all sin,

Again, have you EVER read the Bible

Colossians 2:13 You were at one time spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were Gentiles without the Law. But God has now brought you to life with Christ. God forgave us all our sins; 14 he canceled the unfavorable record of our debts with its binding rules and did away with it completely by nailing it to the cross.

Perhaps you should focus less no the tired comments and actually READ the Bible.

 

[Cathoholic]

Medwigel . . .

Again, have you EVER read the Bible

Colossians 2:13 You were at one time spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were Gentiles without the Law. But God has now brought you to life with Christ. God forgave us all our sins; 14 he canceled the unfavorable record of our debts with its binding rules and did away with it completely by nailing it to the cross.

.

The problem with your interpretation here medwigel is it ADDS the word “ALONE” implicitly to the text and ignores other Scriptures.

Scriptures like Romans 4:25 where we are ALSO told that Jesus was RAISED for our justification.

ROMANS 4:24b-25 Jesus our Lord, 25 who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

.

So the Bible goes beyond Calvary.

It includes Jesus’ work on Calvary to be sure!

But then it includes Jesus work in the Resurrection too, and His work IN and THROUGH His Priests as well (some of the verses that have implied this work of His, have already been presented to you).

Your denial of Jesus’ work is subtle . . . but a denial of our Lord Jesus’ work it is.

 

[MT1926]

You must believe in Christ because His promises are only for those who believe in Him. A Muslim, while he/she may be a good person, can’t receive forgiveness through Christ because they don’t believe in Him. You must become a part of the family in order to inherit the gift.

OK so now you just contradicted everything you have been preaching. You said…

The power of the Blood of Christ is strong enough to forgive us all once and for all of all sin!
How strong is your God?

I replied…

So you are saying everyone is forgiven of their sins regardless of whether they repent or not? That doesn’t sound right?

To which you doubled down and said…

Yes that’s right. Forgiveness is a free gift from Christ. Do you have to work for a gift? No you don’t. If you have to work for something they what you get in return is a reward, not a gift.
A gift is given freely.

But now you are saying…

Just because something is free doesn’t mean you don’t have to take some steps to get it.

Why didn’t you say this from the beginning? Your next statement is very Catholic…

So Jesus has made the gift of forgiveness freely available, the person just has to reach out and come to Jesus by faith.

Yep totally agree. You need to become a part of the family through faith REPENTANCE and Baptism. However, we also believe the repentance and faith must continue in order to remain a member of the family and for Jesus sacrifice to continue to apply to you.

Using your example of the free ice cream. The ice cream only remains free if you continue to get up, leave your house and continually “reach out”(repentance) and get it.

The difference in our theology seems to be you believe once you got your first taste the ice cream now gets delivered to you for free.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

So as you can see, Paul is saying you can’t use the forgiveness you have through grace as a pass to sin and do whatever you want, but grace is still freely given nonetheless.

OK so how are you interpreting St. Paul’s words here? Let me start by saying yes I agree grace is a free gift. I am not arguing against that Biblical fact. The point I am making is I agree with St. Paul, the free gift of grace you already received is not a pass to your future sins. To me this would mean the grace you have right now does not cover the sins you will commit 10 years from now. I’m pretty sure you will agree that we both will most like continue to sin in this life. Therefore, it is only logical to come to the conclusion something else needs to take place in order to get more FREE grace to cover those future sins.

I think Catholic confession fits perfectly into your analogy.

My favorite confessional booth (the ice cream store) is offering the free gift of forgiveness and grace (ice cream). In order to get this grace (ice cream) I need to get off my butt, leave my house, go to the Church, wait in line and ask (repent) for the grace (ice cream) in confession. This doesn’t make the grace (ice cream) any less free. Jesus made the grace (ice cream) free and it is waiting there (in the confessional booth) for all of us to come.

Can’t you see there is absolutely no difference. Just because I repented to God for forgiveness doesn’t mean I forced Him to give it to me. No even when I repent I still don’t deserve what He freely gives me. God freely gives grace out of Love, just because we are expected to show God the Love and Respect He deserves doesn’t make the free gift any less free.

God Bless