Someone can lose their salvation?

[sandusky]

paul c:

He will, the question is who are the elect and how did they get to be the elect.

All of that is detailed in Scripture.
paul c:

God gives everyone sufficient grace for salvation. That is not the issue. The question is can Grace be lost.

I wouldn’t dismiss either one of them.

And, I’ll match your unsupported assertion with one of my own: I don’t believe that God gives everyone the grace of salvation, neither do I believe that the grace of salvation can be lost, nor do I believe that God ever takes away the grace of salvation.
paul c:

I don’t really understand how you use the word sanctification (which to me, means to make holy). In the Catholic world, only the holy get to heaven. You become holy by being in the state of Grace. You get to be in the state of Grace through baptism and it is not merited. However, you can fall from Grace through sin, losing your holiness. You can regain Grace through the sacrament of reconciliation , through confession, contrition, repentence and penance. Good works are required to demonstrate that you are living lives of holiness, doing God’s will. Sanctification or become holy, is a lifelong process

That’s certainly an interesting position.
paul c:

I think your view is that holiness is not required of the elect, only initial belief, in which you are born again.

My view is that works don’t save, and that the elect will move away from sin to holiness as sanctification is the will of God for them.
paul c:

Paul does understand salvation. The question is whether you understand Paul.

I’m guessing that you think that I don’t, but that you do?
paul c:

Jesus provides initial justification for all those that are Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

What happens after “initial justification?”
paul c:

He [Paul] is in complete harmony with the Catholic Church and the rest of scripture…

I always get a kick out of the small glimpses into the Catholic mind—harmony in truth always puts Holy Mother Church at the forefront.

The Father, the Son and the apostles are in harmony with the Catholic Church.

 

[qui_est_ce]

In mine, I’ve found just the opposite; namely, the more one apprehends the holiness of God, the more one grasps how holy one isn’t, and how holy one won’t be in this life, seeing that the perfection of His Holiness is the standard that must be met.

We do have different starting points.

The more one apprehends the holiness of God, the closer one becomes to God, because only the Holy Ones grow close to God. To become close to God is to be Holy. It is then that one can apprehend with awe and humbleness God’s unmerited graces, mercy, and love.

Certanily Mother Teresa and the saints were Holy people. Mother Teresa’s humbleness before God is an example for all of us to follow. She gave all credit to God for her works of mercy. She didn’t have to go to India, she could have just sat back and stayed a nun in Yugoslavia. But she responded to God’s call through her faith. Just as Mary responded to God’s call with her Fiat.

We are ALL God’s elect. God loves all and desires the Salvation of all. Some are rebellious and refuse to answer God’s call to the life of faith.

The purpose of the parable of the sower and the seed is not that the soul was incapable of receiving God’s grace, but that the soul refused to nurture itself to be open to God’s generous grace. Notice the sower didn’t confine himself to good soil only. He sowed ABUNDANTLY, even wastefully.

All of us here should take heed of the following verses"

*Luke 12:45-49
But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, to eat and drink and get drunk,
46
then that servant’s master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the unfaithful.
47 **
That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; **48
and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. **Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more. **
And one of my favorites:

---

49 "I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! ****
I hope we are all on fire for our faith and spread the good word with love and charity.

In the words of St Francis, “Preach often, use words only when necessary.”

Keep on Faithin’ brothers and sisters

 

[mackbrislawn]

I answered your question, how’s that a diversion? (Me thinks thou projects too much.)

ISTM, you’re being evasive…are you?

Please, tell me how I was thinking of it when I made my statement, and be specific concerning my unspoken thoughts.

You answered the question, but later in your post. You said yes, you were of the elect. So, in regards to the poll, out of one response, 100% are of the elect, and 0% of the damned.

Evasive? Just trying to not be drawn off by red herrings.

I presume you were thinking of your understanding of predestination, whatever your understanding is, which would not necessarily correspond to mine. So, actually, your question cannot be answered because its premise prevents it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

This would conclude that all Protestants falsely believe they’re on trial daily and must continually provide evidence to God of saving faith. Falsely concluding that God Himself is not omniscient and that the Lord doesn’t know His own (2 Tim. 2:19). That one is not saved through faith but by subjected evidence of faith. This would translate into a salvation based entirely on work. A belief in a false gospel and under anathema.

I disagree with your false assertion pertaining to “good works of Protestantism.” I believe as the Scriptures say, that I:"…have been saved by grace (unmerited, divine favor) through faith (in the Person and work of Jesus Christ), the gift of God; not as a result of works…"I don’t seek assurance of my salvation by any works, whatsoever, which I can present to God as “evidence.” But my assurance rests in the historical FACT that He:Rom 4:25 - 5:2 "…was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith (not by supplied “evidence”), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."I rest in the “finished” work of Another. The true work of a missionary is to get this truth out; and those who have believed this glorious message support financially those who evangelize according to this “good news” gospel.

No, my friend, you’re totally wrong in your analysis. You perceive it only from your own works oriented, religious mentality; which is a totally false conception. You utterly fail to understand the grace in which the true believer now stands, therefore, he need not strive to provide “evidence” to the God who has already saved him “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

My contention is that Protestants are caught up in their good works in order to demonstrate to themselves and to others that they are saved and persevering to the end. Some of these small, Bible only churches are almost cult-like, and everyone is watching everyone else.

But that aside, the bigger point is that salvation is a process, not an event.

For example, the idea of salvation as a past event is present in passages such as Ephesians 2:5, which states that “even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” (all Scripture quotations NKJV)
Since this passage speaks of salvation in the past tense, something that has been done to us, it is conceiving of salvation as a past reality.

But this is only one aspect of salvation. There is an ongoing aspect to salvation as well, as is indicated in 1st Peter 1:8-9, which states, " … Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving … the salvation of your souls."

The same idea of salvation as something that is taking place presently is found in the writings of the St. Paul as well, for example, in Philippians 2:12 he states, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”.

Salvation in the Bible is therefore also a process which is still being worked out in the life of the believer’s life. And it is a process which will not be finally completed until the Last Day, as is indicated by St. Paul in the following passages:

“Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” (Romans 5:9-10)

“And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.” (Romans 13:11)

“If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” (1Corinthians 3:15)

" … deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1Corinthians 5:5)

These verses all speak of salvation in the future tense, as something that will happen to us in the future. Therefore, salvation has past, present, and future aspects or dimensions.

If we were to offer a general definition of salvation, including its past, present, and future dimensions, we would say something like, “Salvation is a process which begins when a person first becomes a Christian, which continues through the rest of his life, and which concludes on the Last Day.” This definition allows the faithful Christian to do justice to all of the Biblical data by saying, “I have been saved; I am being saved; and I will be saved.” It embraces all three of the aspects of salvation which are present in the biblical literature.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That particular post of Randy’s is another of his “canned responses” that I’ve seen him post elsewhere with a specific name inserted in the final question when Randy’s feeling bold, and the generic brother, it would seem, when he’s feeling more timid.

Of course.

Since non-Catholics keep wandering into these forums asking the same old questions, I simply keep a database of the same old answers to save on typing time. I have hundreds of Catholic Answers available at a moment’s notice.

This is not a problem since the truth never changes.

 

[qui_est_ce]

If we were to offer a general definition of salvation, including its past, present, and future dimensions, we would say something like, “Salvation is a process which begins when a person first becomes a Christian, which continues through the rest of his life, and which concludes on the Last Day.” This definition allows the faithful Christian to do justice to all of the Biblical data by saying, “I have been saved; I am being saved; and I will be saved.” It embraces all three of the aspects of salvation which are present in the biblical literature.

It’s called “Faithing.”

 

[ncgolf]

you are right nc. Paul continued to teach what had been revealed to him by God about the importance of our works.

Rom 2:5-11
6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

I write what is inside of me …what I have learned but often I do not cite Scripture … which must look odd on a forum titled Sacred Scripture … I am glad I do not write another gospel.

Thanks for affirming, from Scripture, what is inside me.

 

[paul_c]

Sandusky, your statement

And, I’ll match your unsupported assertion with one of my own: I don’t believe that God gives everyone the grace of salvation, neither do I believe that the grace of salvation can be lost, nor do I believe that God ever takes away the grace of salvation.

This is actually the fundamental difference between Catholics and Protestants that we have discussed over the last several months.

Let discuss the three points of your assertion.

1. I don’t believe that God gives everyone the grace of salvation,

So by saying this, I assume you believe that God created some people who are damned to hell from their birth, through no fault of their own. We Catholics can not support this position. We believe that God gives everyone the opportunity to choose his ultimate destiny. This is both just and an act of love. Is your scenario consistent with a Just and loving God?

2.neither do I believe that the grace of salvation can be lost,

This point is a direct consequence of whether you believe that God allows us to make our own choices. If you believe that God does not allow us to make our own choices, then it is obvious that once God decides you will be saved, you will. Clearly there is no withstanding God’s will. However, if you believe that God allows everyone to chose between Good and evil, salvation and condemnation, then of course you can lose your salvation. As I described in my previous post, The Catholic view is that

1. Through baptism, the Christian gets initial justification sufficient for salvation. this is through no merit on the individuals part.

2). Once justified and sanctified with Baptism, man will be saved unless he chooses to turn away from God through sin, thus losing the salvation freely granted him.

3). Man can regain this grace, which justifies and sanctifies, through the sacrament of reconciliation . However for this to be valid, the penitent must be fully contrite, repentent, and do good penetential works .

4). If a person ends his life in a state of grace, gaining in the holiness that comes from faith and good works, he will be rewarded eternal life. Note, this is a reward, not a wage. God owes us nothing but has promised to reward those who do his will

As for your final quote:

1. nor do I believe that God ever takes away the grace of salvation

On this we are agreed,. God does not take away the grace of salvation. He gives it to us freely. We merely have to accept it by doing his will.

So there are two actions involved here. The first is on the part of God. He gives us sanctifiying grace because Jesus. sacrificed himself for us sinners if we are baptised in the name of the Father ,the Son and the Holy Spirit. As a Christian, this baptism is available to you as well and as long as you stay in the state of this grace, you will be saved.

The second is on the part of man and it involves his ability to stay in the state of Grace. As long as he can do so, his salvation is assured. However, once he delves into sin, he loses the grace that brings salvation. It is not taken from him. It is lost through an individuals actions. it s at this point that we believe that a Catholic has two distinct advantages over others.

The first is simply a better understanding of what is required for salvation. It is much more difficult for someone to avoid sin if they don’t understand the will of God. If you think that your personal sins don’t matter, this is a huge impediment to staying in grace,
The second is the fact that Catholics have a sacramental ability to regain grace that is not available to others. Since all men sin, this is absolutely required for salvation.

You may not agree with this, (and by the way, if you go on the Ask an Apologist section, you can surely pull out the scriptural support for all the statements) but at least I’ve done my best to describe Catholic thinking on this matter.

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky, your statement

This is actually the fundamental difference between Catholics and Protestants that we have discussed over the last several months.

Let discuss the three points of your assertion.

So by saying this, I assume you believe that God created some people who are damned to hell from their birth, through no fault of their own. We Catholics can not support this position. We believe that God gives everyone the opportunity to choose his ultimate destiny. This is both just and an act of love. Is your scenario consistent with a Just and loving God?

This point is a direct consequence of whether you believe that God allows us to make our own choices. If you believe that God does not allow us to make our own choices, then it is obvious that once God decides you will be saved, you will. Clearly there is no withstanding God’s will. However, if you believe that God allows everyone to chose between Good and evil, salvation and condemnation, then of course you can lose your salvation. As I described in my previous post, The Catholic view is that

1. Through baptism, the Christian gets initial justification sufficient for salvation. this is through no merit on the individuals part.

2). Once justified and sanctified with Baptism, man will be saved unless he chooses to turn away from God through sin, thus losing the salvation freely granted him.

3). Man can regain this grace, which justifies and sanctifies, through the sacrament of reconciliation . However for this to be valid, the penitent must be fully contrite, repentent, and do good penetential works .

4). If a person ends his life in a state of grace, gaining in the holiness that comes from faith and good works, he will be rewarded eternal life. Note, this is a reward, not a wage. God owes us nothing but has promised to reward those who do his will

As for your final quote:
On this we are agreed,. God does not take away the grace of salvation. He gives it to us freely. We merely have to accept it by doing his will.

So there are two actions involved here. The first is on the part of God. He gives us sanctifiying grace because Jesus. sacrificed himself for us sinners if we are baptised in the name of the Father ,the Son and the Holy Spirit. As a Christian, this baptism is available to you as well and as long as you stay in the state of this grace, you will be saved.

The second is on the part of man and it involves his ability to stay in the state of Grace. As long as he can do so, his salvation is assured. However, once he delves into sin, he loses the grace that brings salvation. It is not taken from him. It is lost through an individuals actions. it s at this point that we believe that a Catholic has two distinct advantages over others.

The first is simply a better understanding of what is required for salvation. It is much more difficult for someone to avoid sin if they don’t understand the will of God. If you think that your personal sins don’t matter, this is a huge impediment to staying in grace,
The second is the fact that Catholics have a sacramental ability to regain grace that is not available to others. Since all men sin, this is absolutely required for salvation.

I can find all the information on your position in the catechism, and you can find all of the information on my position in the writings of most Reformed theologians (go to monergism.com).

Thanks for your restating both positions.

 

[broski234]

I can find all the information on your position in the catechism, and you can find all of the information on my position in the writings of most Reformed theologians (go to monergism.com).

Thanks for your restating both positions.

Yeah, there is just one difference…The Catechism quotes not only scripture but the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS, who shed light how the earliest Christians practiced their faith. Caution: Reading the Early Church Fathers may bring you home to Christ Church, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Your reformed theologians give their own personal, fallable, man-made interpretations 1500 years after the fact. Which makes more sense, following what Christ instituted to the Apostles who then carried on the faith to the Early Church Fathers, or men who gave their personal, fallable, man-made interpretations 1500 years after the fact? It’s a matter of intellectual dishonesty on your part Sandy.

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

So, are we in agreement that God desires all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth,b ut it is because of disobedience that some do not?

It’s certainly God’s revealed will that all men be saved:**Acts 17:30

“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent…**But in His secret will, I don’t believe that God purposes the salvation of all men, but only the salvation of the elect:Deuteronomy 29:29
“The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law (cf Rom 8:30).

guanophore:

Perhaps I did not say it in the best way. In HIs sovereignty, God ordains that our responses to Him will influence what He does. He ordains that we should have the freedom to reject His will for us.

All that ordainin’ hardly sounds like freedom—you might want to think about that, and study it more. Then again, you might not. I don’t know.

guanophore:

I am asking you to explain how your theology fits together with the many scriptures that indicate God wants all men to be saved, and that we choose whether or not we wish to be among the elect.

I’ve done part of that above, with respect to men “choosing to be among the elect” that’s something you’re positing right now, and you would need to support that in order for it to be entertained.

Scripture posits that every aspect of the choosing in election is the Father’s choosing, and His choosing is not thwarted by the creature.

guanophore:

I am seeking the Reformed perspective on these verses that seem to contradict the Reformed doctrine. Perhaps you are not able to help me?

Apparently you’re right; I’m not able to help you. You’ve read my perspective of the historical verses used against the Reformed position of eternal security many times.

Perhaps it’s time you read the commentaries of some Reformed theologians; if you’re really interested, that is.

 

[sandusky]

Yeah, there is just one difference…The Catechism quotes not only scripture but the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS, who shed light how the earliest Christians practiced their faith. Caution: Reading the Early Church Fathers may bring you home to Christ Church, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Your reformed theologians give their own personal, fallable, man-made interpretations 1500 years after the fact.

Newflash: All of the ECFs have given their own personal, fallible man-made interpretations.

That’s because they were all fallible men. :yup:

 

[broski234]

Newflash: All of the ECFs have given their own personal, fallible man-made interpretations.

That’s because they were all fallible men. :yup:

Not so! What about the one’s who were disciples of the Apostles? Have you ever heard of apostolic succession? Do you know what infallability means? When the Pope is speaking on the issues of FAITH AND MORALS, he speaks infallably. They were part of the Church Christ found and Christ promised to always guide His Church. The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[moondweller]

ncgolf:

Faith without works is dead

For demonstation purposes only - which is the context of James 2.

faith is both a noun and a verb

“Faith” is a noun, as in:“For by grace you have been saved through faith…”“Believe” is a verb, as in:"…believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."To believe is a personal response to the gospel message of salvation through the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ alone.

something that would take residence in one’s soul and as something one must do.[/indent]It’s a personal response to a revealed truth. When a truth is revealed one either believes (verb) it or does not. One then walks by faith (noun) in that revealed truth or one does not. It’s not some foreign entity that takes up residence in a soul.

The works are not for God’s appeasment but for the building up of His kingdom on earth to demonstrate the goodness of God.

“Appeasement” wasn’t the assertion, but the presenting of “evidence” of faith so that by such evidence God could then justify Himself in saving the believer. The insinuation here being that God cannot save anyone by grace through faith in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ alone. Nor can He justly keep by that same grace those whom He saves through Christ alone.

I should think even some of your Protestant brothers should disagree with your conclusion … a living or even a “saving” faith does produce actions, necessarily. If one does not strive he did not have faith.

Striving doesn’t prove faith. One can strive and even endure great hardships, but not out of true faith. True faith is based on the Object of that faith (see Jn. 3:14; ref. Num. 21:8-9).

What I see in your analysis is the most despicable kind of faith …

It’s not my faith you find despicable but the idea that God would save and keep a person based entirely on GRACE through faith in Christ alone. Such grace you find repugnant.John 10:9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

 

[sandusky]

Not so!

So!

If you believe otherwise, then my friend, you’re very much deceived, but I’ll pray not incurably.

 

[moondweller]

tqualey:

Simply stated: there is no Faith versus Works controversy in the NT.

I agree. It’s men, in their unbelief, who complicate divine grace - not the Scriptures.

There is not one passage that says, “Faith is OK, but the real action is with Works!” or “Works are almost totally useless - unless you have Faith, you are lost!” Not only are these words NOT PRESENT in the Gospels - but, Christ expressed no such sentiments.

John 3:14-18 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (reference to the cross); so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 3:36 “He who believes (pisteuo) in the Son has eternal life; but he who believes not (apeitheo) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Let’s look to Christ for not only the Ultimate Authority but also the Ultimate Role Model.

You can see by the above verses that Christ put the weight of salvation on faith alone. And in the context of salvation He presents Himself, throughout the Gospel accounts, not as the “ultimate role model” but as the OBJECT of saving faith. He requires faith alone because it’s through His work alone that one is saved.

No one is saved by Works alone - we can not ‘work our way to heaven’. No one is saved by Faith alone - St. Paul (among others, tells us that Charity is the greatest virtue and everything else is clanging brass.

Paul emphatically states:Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works…"When Paul makes reference to works at all he addresses those who are already saved, that is, those identified as “created in Christ FOR good works” (Eph. 2:10). Works of value are reserved for the saved, but not for salvation. According to the N.T. salvation is divinely gifted upon faith in Christ alone - the Object of salvation faith.

I realize that OSAS has been an article of your religion for some time - and that time can not be dated prior to the 16th Century.

Was the Trinity in the Scriptures prior to the 4th century? Eternal security was revealed in the N.T. Scriptures the moment they were penned. It’s only when men returned to the Scriptures as their final authority that they fully understood, after many years of religious confusion, that they are eternally secure in Christ, saved and kept by Divine grace alone (Heb. 7:25).

Christ totally changed the direction of the Salvation Message by moving away from Judiasm.

Judaism could save no one. Through the Law came the knowledge of sin - not salvation. Christ didn’t change the direction of the salvation message; there was no salvation message according to the Law. The Person and work of Jesus Christ Himself is the salvation message, and the Law pointed to Him:Rom 3:20-22 “…because by the works of law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through law {comes} the knowledge of sin. But now apart from law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;”

“But before faith came, we were kept in custody under law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.”

 

[moondweller]

ncgolf:

One must be sanctified before entrance to Heaven.

Acts 26:18 "…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified (how?) by faith in Me.’…says Jesus.

I read you as saying faith becomes the “means” to attain this sanctity needed for heaven

No. Personal faith in Christ alone is the means through which God saves the believer by GRACE. Being now sanctified in Christ is part and parcel to salvation.

I define sanctity as loving God with all your, heart, mind, soul, and strength

“Sanctity” is the quality of being “holy.” “Holy” in the Scriptures means being set apart, which is the definition of being sanctified. The one who believes in Christ unto salvation is “sanctified” in the resurrected Christ. God has set him apart for His own eternal purposes “in Christ.” It’s God who makes men “holy” by setting them apart through faith in Christ Jesus alone, in whom they “have redemption, the forgiveness of sins” (Col. 1:14).

The “works” are intended to convince others of God’s truths and love for all … since we have no need to convince God of anything.

AMEN. Works demonstrate salvation faith (the context of James’ argument in Ja. 2), but are not the cause of it (salvation). The believer, saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works" (Eph. 2:8-9), is revealed as being now “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works,” but not BY them. Only one Man’s work is ever considered when God saves men: The vicarious, efficacious, expiatory, propitiatory, redemptive, finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Because through this Divine work, and this work alone, can God remain just when He justifies the one who has faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:26). That’s the power of the cross.1 Cor 1:18 “For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (cf. Rom. 1:16-17).

1 Cor 1:21 “For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.”

1 Cor 1:30-31 "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

 

[moondweller]

qui est ce:

This is and has always been taught by the Apostolic Church of Christ. But we must respond. Christ died for all, but we must respond by faith. It is not Faith plus works, but Faith in action. Faith is a verb. We must PARTICIPATE in His death and suffering.

No, in respect to salvation you don’t participate in the “suffering” of Christ. However, it is a spiritual truth that the believer in Christ is now seen by God as having died with Christ “to sin” on the cross, and now raised to new life with Him in resurrection (Rom. 6:2, 6, 7, 8; Eph. 2:5-6; Col. 3:1-3). It’s the true believer’s position now “in Christ” resurrected before God.

How do you explain Colossians 1:24
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, 25 of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God,

At Paul’s conversion Jesus said to Ananias:Acts 9:15-16 "…for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name’s sake."Paul’s ministry (stewardship) to the Gentiles would incur great suffering on his part. Christ would use him to not only build His church but minister to it as well.

Christ Himself accomplished the “work” of reconciliation on the cross. It was His work and His alone. His work of reconciliation is appropriated, in full, to the believer at the time of personal belief in Him. But Paul and the other Apostles were commissioned not with the “work” of reconciliation (this work could only be done by Christ on the cross), but the “WORD of reconciliation” (see 2 Cor. 5:18-19).

Christ, in His body, through death, accomplished the work of reconciliation (Col. 1:19-20, 22), rose from the dead and ascended back into glory. Nothing was lacking in that perfect work. What was lacking, however, was the “word of reconciliation” which was commissioned to Paul and the other Apostles. For this commission, Paul especially, suffered (2 Cor. 11:23-29). Not for his salvation, but that through his word others would believe and be saved. Those who have believed the “word of reconciliation” are saved and make up the “body of Christ, which is the church” (Col. 1:24).

Paul’s call into ministry involved great suffering on his part for the sake of the church, the body of Christ. But it’s through Christ’s suffering and sacrificial death on the cross through which God saves those who believe in Him.

Salvation involves: Redemption from sin (complete forgiveness); reconciliation to God; sanctification in Christ; justification as a new, righteous standing before God; the gift of eternal life; and the future glorification of the body to be conformed with the body of His glory. All this according to GRACE through FAITH alone.

 

[moondweller]

paul c:

Paul does understand salvation. The question is whether you understand Paul. Jesus provides initial justification for all those that are Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. There is no question about this among Christians. This is done without the cooperation or merit of the individual. So there is not debate on this point.

But there’s great debate on what you’ve written above.

First of all, where does it say in Scripture that divine justification is qualified with the word “initial?” Or where does it say Jesus provides justification, even so-called “initial” justification?

The fact is, Jesus provided redemption through His blood; but it is God Himself who GIFTS justification to the believer “through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” He justifies the believer, giftwise, through the perfect, finished, redemptive work of His beloved Son on the cross.

Hence, it is impossible for justification to be merely “initial,” i.e., subject to destruction or waiting to be completed by the perseverance men. Such a notion is Biblically inaccurate and nothing short of blasphemy.Rom 3:21-24 "But now apart from law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned (i.e., in Adam) and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"According to the Scriptures, the only persevering work on which God justifies anyone is that of the incarnate Son. His redemptive work on the cross, alone.

 

[moondweller]

My contention is that Protestants are caught up in their good works in order to demonstrate to themselves and to others that they are saved and persevering to the end. Some of these small, Bible only churches are almost cult-like, and everyone is watching everyone else.

You made a sweeping, unjustified statement of all Protestants.

If we were to offer a general definition of salvation, including its past, present, and future dimensions, we would say something like, “Salvation is a process which begins when a person first becomes a Christian, which continues through the rest of his life, and which concludes on the Last Day.” This definition allows the faithful Christian to do justice to all of the Biblical data by saying, “I have been saved; I am being saved; and I will be saved.” It embraces all three of the aspects of salvation which are present in the biblical literature.

But does not embrace the cross. Such a definition, in fact, circumvents it.