Someone can lose their salvation?

[Randy_Carson]

This is from the Assemblies of God:

Security of the Believer (Backsliding)

This document reflects commonly held beliefs based on scripture which have been endorsed by the church’s Commission on Doctrinal Purity and the Executive Presbytery.
What is the Assemblies of God position on the security of the believer’s salvation?

The Assemblies of God has taken a strong stand against the teaching that God’s sovereign will completely overrides man’s free will to accept and serve Him. In view of this we believe it is possible for a person once saved to turn from God and be lost again. However, we do not go to the other extreme of teaching that mankind’s choice of receiving or rejecting Christ makes a person totally responsible for his own salvation apart from Christ’s atonement. Article VIII of the Assemblies of God Bylaws opposes unconditional security with the following statement:

In view of the biblical teaching that the security of the believer depends on a living relationship with Christ (John 15:6); in view of the Bible’s call to a life of holiness (1 Peter 1:16; Hebrews 12:14); in view of the clear teaching that a man may have his part taken out of the Book of Life (Revelation 22:19); and in view of the fact that one who believes for a while can fall away (Luke 8:13); The General Council of the Assemblies of God disapproves of the unconditional security position which holds that it is impossible for a person once saved to be lost.

The Christian religious world divides basically into two schools of thought concerning the spiritual destiny of people. One is Calvinism, named after John Calvin (early 16th century); the other is Arminianism, traced back to James Arminius (late 16th century). The theological debate is thus centuries old.

Calvinism teaches (1) the total depravity of man, (2) God’s unconditional election (or predestination) of those who will be saved, (3) that Christ died only for the elect, not for every person, (4) that God’s saving grace toward the elect cannot be resisted, and (5) that once a person is saved, he can never lose his salvation.

Arminianism teaches something different on each of these points: (1) Though born a sinner, mankind is given a spark of divine grace that enables him to respond positively to God. (2) God does not arbitrarily consign some people to eternal damnation; their willful rejection of God’s salvation makes them responsible. (3) Christ died for every person, even though some refuse to accept the provision for their salvation (4) No person is forced against his or her will to become a Christian. (5) One’s salvation can be lost through willful disobedience. Rather than the unconditional predestination of Calvinism, Arminianism teaches conditional predestination. We are predestined to eternal life if we accept God’s provision of salvation.

The Assemblies of God leans toward Arminianism, though it accepts scriptural truth found in both positions. We agree with the Calvinist emphasis on God’s sovereignty or supreme power and authority. But we also firmly believe the Arminian emphasis on mankind’s free will and responsibility for his actions and choices. We believe the Bible teaches both truths.

“Eternal security,” according to Calvinists, means “once saved, always saved.” The key passage for this position is John 10:28,29— “No one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” There is great assurance in this passage and in Romans 8:35,39—“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? . . . Neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” The Assemblies of God also stands on these wonderful truths knowing we need not fear that something external will overpower us and take away our salvation. Only our willful choices can do that.

But here is the problem: Can someone jump willingly from the Father’s hand?

You bet. Thus, no eternal security.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, this is what you believe. But the Scriptures state nothing about “initial” justification or “initial” salvation. Only the FACT of justification and salvation, and that by/through faith alone, and states nothing about baptism being the cause. It’s those who have believed and are saved/justified through faith in Christ alone, that are to be subsequently baptized.

It is what we believe because this is what the Bible actually says. Unlike some, we aren’t working overtime here to shoehorn the scriptures into our theological presuppositions.

It is a FACT that the Bible teaches that justification and salvation are processes and not one-time events in the life of the believer. Because a believer may be justified more than once, it makes sense to speak of initial justification, final justification and even re-justification for those who have lost their justification. Do you need to see the verses that prove this?

It is also a FACT that the Bible speaks of Baptism as being the cause as in “baptism now saves you.” (1 Peter 3:21) It is a FACT that you must ignore this verse (and others) in order to hold your present opinion.

It is also a FACT that althought the Apostle Paul used the word “faith” and related terms more than 200 times in the New Testament, yet he never once used the phrase “faith alone”?

This seems strange considering how concerned Paul was with passing on the faith accurately and the means to justification would be among the most important truths he would preach. In fact, throughout all of his works, he goes to great lengths to choose his words with precision, so it seems odd that “faith alone” does not appear once in all of his writings.

This is even more surprising given the fact that Paul also used the words “alone” and “only” more frequently than any other New Testament author. Clearly, Paul was well-accustomed to using these powerful qualifiers.

Could it be that the Holy Spirit prevented Paul from ever writing “faith alone” to describe the process of justification? And that same check prevented any of the gospel writers from ascribing “faith alone” to Jesus, either.

In FACT, the only time that the Holy Spirit allowed any author to use that infamous phrase is when He inspired James to write, “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)

Therefore, for those who propose that Paul taught justification by faith alone, a very haunting question remains: Why didn’t Paul use the specific phrase “faith alone” anywhere in his New Testament writings?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The difference between a mere “said” faith and a true faith. James must be understood in context.

Interesting…could you provide a definition of "said faith?

 

[guanophore]

Yes, this is what you believe. But the Scriptures state nothing about “initial” justification or “initial” salvation.

It is true that the word “initial” is not present. . The Scripture does not contain it’s table of contents, or the word Trinity, either. But the concept of Trinity is there, as is the fact that there is a point in time when we are justified.

only the FACT of justification and salvation,

Are you saying that this event does not occur in time and space?

Phil 1:6
he who began a good work in you

Gal 3:3-4
Having **begun **with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?

Rev 2:3-6
4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

I think we will both agree that we are justified at a certain point in time. This is the beginning of the Christian life. It is when we “begin” in the Spirit.

and that by/through *faith alone*,

Actually, this is not accurate. First of all, faith is never “alone”. It is always accompanited by love, and hope, and good works. Second, faith does not justify us. Grace does. We are justified by grace THROUGH faith.

and states nothing about baptism being the cause.

I think, according to your non-apostolic notion of baptism, this is a true statement. However, according to the Apostolic Teaching, the regeneration or “born again” even occurs by water and spirit(baptism).

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

The Apostle here refers to the moment of initial justification (baptism) wherein the believer makes a profession of faith, and enters the cleansing waters of baptism which wash away sins.

Perhaps you did not realize that Jesus joined the HS to the waters of baptism when He entered them? Since that time, the HS was never separated from baptism, until the children of the Reformers, many generations separated from the Apostolic Teaching, decided that the ONE BAPTISM referred to in scripture no longer existed in it’s apostolic form.

It’s those who have believed and are saved/justified through faith in Christ alone, that are to be subsequently baptized.

Those who believe are never alone, and neither is their faith. However, in spite of this erronous understanding, the Church accepts that Protestants who fall short of the Apostolic understanding still intend to do what the Church does through baptism, so these baptisms are accepted as valid.

Scripture teaches us that all who believe in the Person and work of Jesus Christ are “under grace”

Actually, scripture does not "teach’ at all. Scripture lacks the qualities necessary to teach, which qualities are peculiar to persons. This is why Jesus charged persons with the duty to teach, and appointed teachers as gifts to His church.

One of the reasons that there are so many erros is this belief that the book can “teach” itself.

but says nothing about the believer being put in a “state of grace”

I can see why you would have difficulty with this. Since your understanding of what happens in baptism misses the mark, it would be nearly impossible to grasp what it means to be in a state of grace.

which must be held on to by him till death, and on which his future salvation hinges.

You have misunderstood Catholic teaching moon. what you have represented here is not accurate.

Your statement, “if we die in this state, we will be saved,” testifies to the fact that you believe you’re not saved now but in a probationary state (not a “state of grace”),

This is also erroneous. There are some aspects (initial) that have already been completed in the past. There is nothing “probationary” about them. We were washed, sanctified, and justified. We were transferred from the kingdom of darkenss into the kingdom of light. we have died, and our life is hidden with Christ in God. This is, indeed, a state of grace.

and your future salvation is conditioned on your performance (works), rather than Christ’s historic, redemptive and reconciliatory work on the cross on your behalf.

This is a misrepresentation of Catholic teaching, moon. It is true the Apostles taught that some aspects of salvation are being currently worked out in us,a nd other aspects we will not attain until we leave this life. However, nonne of these are conditioned upon ourselves. We are saved by grace, thorugh faith. Grace is the only thing that can save us.

I think, for some reason, you enjoy misrepresenting the Apostolic faith in this way. It is a puzzle. One would think that you would be eager to affirm the Catholic teaching that agrees with your own theology.

This does render the cross of Christ, in respect to your future salvation, insignificant.

If the false gospel you are rendering, and erroneously calling “catholic” were actually what the Church teaches, then this would be true.

 

[guanophore]

Your *future* salvation depends entirely on your performance *now*.

This is also a falsehood. It is God who is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. He is the one who began a good work in us (initial justification) , and is faithful to complete it.

justification can be lost through sin

moon, the nature of sin has not changed. We will agree that it is sin that separates us from God. However, for some reason, you think that the nature of sin has metamorphed “this side of the cross” so that sin stops separating people from God. This is not the case. Sin separates us no less now than it did before.

then God’s testimony concerning His Son as a final, propitiatory and redemptive sacrifice for sins, is a lie; and the cross, where He bore ALL our sins, once for all, is rendered insignificant.

If the false gospel you are preaching, and falsely accusing of being “catholic” were accurate,then this would be true. Fortunately, this is not the case.

Christ is our once for all sacrifice for sins. There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved.

But in Biblical Christianity,

Actually this is something that only exists in the imagination as well. There is really no such thing as “biblical Christianity”. Christianity is based upon the teachings of Jesus. He committed it to the Apostles, and it was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. Christianity is Apostolic. When Apostolic teaching is separated from the Scripture, all sorts of imaginary beliefs ensue, such as the bible teaching itself, and Christianity based on the book, instead of the person of Christ.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

What we may not agree about is what “hearing” and “believing” mean. Catholics believe that to “hear” His words means to "do " them, and saving faith is faith that works. We also believe that people who begin “hearing and believing” sometimes cease to do so.
moondweller;4790959:

What I do know, however, is that according to the Scriptures, a man’s salvation

is not based on his actions (works), but that of the Theanthopic Man, the man Christ Jesus; His finished work on the cross on man’s behalf.

I am so confused about you, moon. The Scripture says this because it was written by, for, and about Catholics. What you say here that you “know” is Catholic faith!

The part you don’t know, is that to the extent that you “know” this, you have come into agreement with the Teaching of the Catholic Church. Somehow you are prevented from recognizing that this, and not the error you have posted above, represents the Catholic faith.

In respect to salvation/justification, man’s responsibility is to believe

the testimony of God concerning Christ and His work. It is God Himself who then saves and justifies through faith alone.

This is Catholic, except for the fact that faith is never alone.

Saving faith is always accompanied by those works that God has prepared before the foundation of the world, that we should walk in them.

 

[moondweller]

So yes, I believe that we can lose Grace and our salvation. That does not make the the Cross insignificant.

Why not?

The cross is very significant because without it you can not be saved.

How’s that?

We believe, instead, that it is the BASIS of salvation

How so?

 

[moondweller]

Actually, this is not accurate. First of all, faith is never “alone”. It is always accompanited by love, and hope, and good works.

But for salvation itself, it’s alone.“For by grace you have been saved through faith (notice: love, hope and good works are conspicuously missing); and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works…” (Eph. 2:8-9).Love, hope and good works are reserved for those who “have been saved by grace through faith” alone.

Second, faith does not justify us. Grace does. We are justified by grace THROUGH faith.

Not true. Grace doesn’t justify, God Himself does, giftwise, and that through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus:Rom 3:24 “…being justified as a gift by His grace (on what basis? Works? NO!) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

This is also a falsehood. It is God who is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. He is the one who began a good work in us (initial justification) , and is faithful to complete it.

This is an eternal security statement. If, as you say, God is “faithful to complete it,” then how is it some lose it? You present a blatant contradiction regarding the the fidelity of God. Contradictions are not uncommmon in Catholic soteriology.

Saving faith is always accompanied by those works that God has prepared before the foundation of the world, that we should walk in them.

Yes, but not saved by them. Those saved by grace through faith, as a gift of God, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9), are those now created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, not by them (Eph. 2:10). The Scriptures certainly speak of saving faith, but never saving works. That’s uniquely Catholic. Works are reserved for those who are already “saved by grace through faith” alone.

 

[guanophore]

Do Catholics believe that works save them?

No. Catholics believe what the first Catholics wrote in the NT. We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[guanophore]

You have got to be kidding me.

Not kidding! there are two posters here now, moondweller and NonCatholic who seem to be convinced that this is what Catholics believe. No matter what you tell them, or show otherwise, they are not pursuaded.

I have two PM’s waiting for you, when you empty your box and make room. Empty the sent mail - it takes up a lot of space.

 

[guanophore]

But for salvation itself, it’s alone."For by grace you have been saved through faith

No, moon, faith is never “alone”. As you can see in this verse, it is by grace we are saved. Salvation occurs when our faith meets with God’s grace. Salvation does not occur by one, or the other, but together.

We are also saved in Hope. Hope is not separated from faith and love.

Titus 3:7-8
7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
moondweller;4796589:
(notice: love, hope and good works are conspicuously missing);

They are not missing for us, moon, because Catholics do not separate and divide the scriptures from one another. We take them all as a whole, and understand the meaning of one together with the rest.

1 Cor 13:13
13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

faith is never alone.

and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works…" (Eph. 2:8-9).

It is only you, moon, that is purporting that Catholics believe we are saved as a result of our works. The Catholic Church does not teach this.

Love, hope and good works are reserved for those who “have been saved by grace through faith” alone.

I think not, but that is probably a topic for another thread.

Grace doesn’t justify, God Himself does, giftwise, and that through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:24 "…being justified as a gift by His grace
​

I don’t know why you are nitpicking about this, moon. Catholics do not separate God from His boundless grace toward us in Christ. He gifts us salvation by His grace because He loves us, and poured Himself out for us.

through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"This is an eternal security statement. If, as you say, God is “faithful to complete it,” then how is it some lose it?

They don’t remain in the grace. Grace is poured out, and runs like a river. There is a point at which we enter grace (initial justification). We can either stay in the water, or get out and walk away.

You present a blatant contradiction regarding the the fidelity of God. Contradictions are not uncommmon in Catholic soteriology.

I understand that it seems contradictory to you. I think this is not uncommon for those who have never been exposed to Apostolic Teaching.

Yes, but not saved by them. Those saved by grace through faith, as a gift of God, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9), are those now created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, not by them (Eph. 2:10). The Scriptures certainly speak of saving faith, but never saving works.

I think it is more proper to say that faith, working through love, is saving faith. Love covers a multitude of sins.

That’s uniquely Catholic. Works are reserved for those who are already “saved by grace through faith” alone.

When was Cornelius saved?​

 

[paul_c]

Moondweller,
Its a little frustrating that you don’t bother to read the answers to your questions. for this to be a worthwhile discourse, you need to pay attention to the answers given. I will give paste in the answers to your questions from the original note to save you the time in going back:

Originally Posted by paul c
So yes, I believe that we can lose Grace and our salvation. That does not make the the Cross insignificant.

Why not?

Answer from post 498:

As for your continual statement that the Catholic sotierology renders the cross insignificant, you must admit that this is not true. Without Christ 's cross, we can not get the initial grace required for salvation nor would we have the sacrament of reconciliation to regain Grace after sin. Furthermore there would be no faith that are the basis of Good works, and we all agree that good works without the loving intent to do God’s will are meaningless. So Christ’s Cross is essential to salvation in the Catholic sotierology

.

This is from post 510, where I explain further that your explanation is invalid:

What you want to say is that you believe the cross is the TOTALITY of salvation, never to be denied or influenced by anything else. We believe, instead, that it is the BASIS of salvation, without which no one can be saved but that man must be baptized, have faith and do God’s will to complete the act of salvation. But the cross is never INSIGNIFICANT to any Christian.

Originally posted by Paul c:
The cross is very significant because without it you can not be saved.

How’s that?

As explained above: You need the cross for initial justification, without which you can not be saved.

Quote: orignially posted by paul c
We believe, instead, that it is the BASIS of salvation

How so?

Again, you need the cross for initial justification. Without, it you can not be saved. That is why it is the basis of salvation.

 

[ForMary]

Judas Iscariot lost his salvation.

It sounds like you know this as fact, please share your source or inspiration.

 

[ncgolf]

It sounds like you know this as fact, please share your source or inspiration.

Matthew 26:24-25, 24 “The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself.”

 

[ForMary]

Matthew 26:24-25, 24 “The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself.”

“…better for that man if he had not been born.” does not infer implicitly or explicitly the salvation of the man in question has been lost.

 

[ncgolf]

“…better for that man if he had not been born.” does not infer implicitly or explicitly the salvation of the man in question has been lost.

What does it say then … specifically about Judas?

 

[moondweller]

guanophore:

It is God who is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. He is the one who began a good work in us (initial justification) , and is faithful to complete it.

They don’t remain in the grace. Grace is poured out, and runs like a river. There is a point at which we enter grace (initial justification). We can either stay in the water, or get out and walk away.

How is it you stumble over the cross of Christ but easily hurdle over this blatant contradiction of yours?

If, as you say, it’s God who begins a good work and is FAITHFUL to COMPLETE it, then one is eternally saved according to HIS faithfulness.

If, as you say, one loses salvation by getting out of the “water,” then the burden of salvation rests not on God to faithfully “complete” what He began, but man. This is a works based salvation, not faith/grace based.

When was Cornelius saved?

The moment he believed the message concerning Christ through Peter. This side of the cross Christ is the object of salvation faith.

 

[paul_c]

I’m not trying to “make” them say anything. They speak for themselves.

Unfortunately, this is not true. Scripture is the written word and needs to be interpretted. You would clearly admit that your interpretations are different than the Catholics, would you not?

In Scripture salvation is not described as a “process,” but a divine “gift” upon faith in Christ:Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works.
"The words “have been” are not congruent with your “process” concept…

Mondweller, This equally applies to the Catholic construct for Salvation. It speaks to initial justification, which is done without merit or works, but by Grace through faith. Good works must follow to stay in the state of Grace. This quote does not preclude that condition.

Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”“He saved us…” reflects a one time act of God. And we know that according to the Scriptures that this He did at the time of personal faith in Jesus Christ:

Notice, here that he talks of the washing of regeneration. That washing is baptism which gives initial justification. This is the first step and as I stated many times, this in not on the basis or deeds or any merit on our part. And yes, it is a one time act of the part of God, We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin.

Acts 16:30-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,"Paul and his companions didn’t say to the jailer, “You will begin the process of salvation.”

The first step is to believe. We are agreed on this. And yes, the passage doesn’t say " You will being the process of salvation". However, it doesn’t preclude it either. I think you would agree that the immediate situation was not conducive for sharing the entire Christian philosophy on salvation. In the time he had, his answer was sufficient to start the jailer on the path to salvation…

Peter at the council in Jerusalem said:Acts 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe…and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."The issue was saved by faith plus conformity to the Law or else saved by faith alone. The latter prevailed.

Moondweller, Peter was talking about the new covenant, which didn’t require circumcision or the dietary laws. He was not invalidating the 10 commendments or the need to do good works.

This was Paul’s gospel message to the Gentiles:
Gal 3:22-24 "But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.The true believer is now “created (past tense) in Christ Jesus FOR good works” that he should walk in them (Eph. 2:10), but he is not being “created in Christ Jesus” BY those works. The walking in good works is present tense, but “created” in Christ (the “Last Adam”) is a past, completed action on God’s part at the time of true belief:

We have discussed this alot. Your initial justification has nothing to do with Good works or merit. It is purely a gift from God through baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, made possible by the passion of Jesus Christ. But having recieved sanctifying grace, you must keep it through Faith demonstrated by Good works , which is continous, hence the present tense. And yes the believer was created (past tense) through the one time event of baptism. See how this fits…

 

[paul_c]

2 Tim 1:8-9 “Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with {me} in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God (the cross), who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”

Again, we are called through no merit of our own and sanctified through baptism. Nothing inconsistent with that in this passage (or any other).

Salvation in the Scriptures is a divine undertaking for the believer from his deliverance out of the lost estate to his final presentation in glory conformed to the image of Christ. Since the divine objective is thus all-inclusive, the theme is divided naturally into three tenses: (1) PAST, when he believed (Acts 16:30-31; Eph. 2:8; 2 Tim. 1:8-9; Titus 3:5); an unchanging FACT. The believer, at the time of faith was completely delivered from his lost estate, cleansed, forgiven, justified, born of God, clothed in the merit of Christ, freed from all condemnation and safe for evermore. That’s what “saved” means. (2) PRESENT, the believer is being saved (kept by grace) from the dominion of sin, divinely preserved and sanctified through the High Priestly work of the risen Christ (Heb. 7:25). (3) FUTURE, the believer is yet to be saved from the presence of sin when presented faultless and glorified (bodily) in glory (Phil. 3:20-21).

Having written the above, can you not see how it perfectly describes Catholic sotierology:

• Past: this refers to initial justification, when we are baptized
• Present: Exactly, the believer is kept in grace through good works and the sacrament of reconciliation when he fails.
• Future: Exactly, the believer is yet to be saved from the presence of sin, but must persevere until death, when if he remains in grace and is purified through penance and perhaps, purgatory, he will be presented fautless and glorified in Glory

Catholicism errs in that it confounds sanctification and justification/salvation, rendering the word “saved” completely meaningless.Yes. But in context those in vs. 7 are BELIEVERS; those in vs. 8 are UNBELIEVERS. The saved will receive “rewards” for any works that are of value (1 Cor. 3:10-15). But the believer’s salvation was gifted “by grace through faith…not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9). IOW, it’s not a “reward” for works well done, but a divine gift according to infinite GRACE.

I hope that by now you are understanding this a little better.
You are saved through baptism and cleansed of PRIOR sin. If you die at this point, you will be saved. You will also be saved, if you stay in this state of Grace, either through continued personal purity (doing the will of God) or thorugh further sacramental cleansing through the sacrament of reconciliation…There is merit in the sanctification process that is ongoing from Baptism. However, we can not claim a wage form God, who gave us all things. Nevertheless, God has promised to reward those that do his will.

Yes, but it’s through FAITH that God saves; love is the fruit of the Spirit who now indwells the saved. The reason the Holy Spirit can now indwell the saved is because they’ve been redeemed, forgiven and cleansed (purged) of ALL sins through Christ’s sacrificial death (Heb. 1:3).

yes, they have been cleansed through the waters of baptism so that the Holy Spirit can dwell in them…

As for the James two passage, Catholicism fails to interpret it in context. It’s been discussed by me and others on this forum many, many times.

Yes, its been discussed and distorted from its original meaning by you and others. We Catholics stick to the original, clearly stated meaning: Faith without works is dead…

Moondweller, I know this has to be disconcerting for you. You are clearly a true believer in Jesus Christ and you approach these forums without malice, which says a lot about you. Unfortunately, you were born into (I’m assuming) a reformed environment and you just can’t seem to grasp the point that, Faith is only half the requirement for salvation, but that you also need to live out your faith.

 

[moondweller]

paul c:

Its a little frustrating that you don’t bother to read the answers to your questions. for this to be a worthwhile discourse, you need to pay attention to the answers given. I will give paste in the answers to your questions from the original note to save you the time in going back:

Those were not answers, they were mere statements without substance. It’s like asking what are the eternal benefits of Christ dying on the cross and answering, “a lot.” No substance. I’ll wait for direct answers, Paul. Thank you.

 

[paul_c]

Those were not answers, they were mere statements without substance. It’s like asking what are the eternal benefits of Christ dying on the cross and answering, “a lot.” No substance. I’ll wait for direct answers, Paul. Thank you.

Then we aren’t communicating very well. The answers were direct. What are you looking for, scriptural quotes to defend each point?