Someone can lose their salvation?

[Seeking12]

God concerns Himself in all aspects of our lives but I do not “think” it happens … I know it happens though the event leaves one looking exactly the same … does not a baptized/unbaptized person look the same? Can you tell a justified or unjustified person by looking at them? I think not so my “thinking” about it is irrelevant … it is by faith that I believe this. My thinking about it does nothing to add or subtract from the truth. Sacraments are “a” means … a known means of receiving God’s grace. Though God may give grace to whom and when He wants outside of the Sacraments … it is by His revelation that they do exist in the form used by Catholics. It is not hidden. Why would you not think grace could be received in this manner? Why would you ask such a judgmental question? I follow the the teachings handed down from the Apostles so you can categorize that any which way you want. If my understanding of the Catholic view is deficient … I will learn … I am not teaching another gospel only explaining in my limited capacity what the Catholic Church teaches.
If a Catholic explains the teachings of the Church deficiently how does that diminish the true teaching of the Church. Are you familiar with the Catholic understanding of justification … not your own view but the Catholic understanding. I know what Scripture says … and I understand there are other interpretations on the timing of and understanding of justifaction and salvation … particularly of how Paul speaks about it.

I find these types of responses all the time in this forum … the insinuation that Catholics are deficient in their understanding of Scripture and if there were properly informed they would change their mind in a heartbeat.

I have found no discrepency between the Catholic understanding of those subjects and Scripture.

**I am not judging whether you are right or wrong; that is between you and God. But when you compare what you are taught to what God has said, then you will gain confidence and understanding in your walk. One only has one life on this earth to get it right; Jesus has shown us the path He wants all people to take, but for whatever reasons, sin being number one, a majority of religious people chose the wrong path, the broad one that leads to destruction. I do not know your path, but I pray you are on the correct one.

In regards to dispensing grace through the use of sacraments; I have never seen, read or heard of such a thing in the bible in the context that you speak of. I don’t see it but you do; so that is the way it is.**

 

[ncgolf]

But not the divine solution for sin.[/indent]

As a preventative … like a flu-shot. If so do you still sin … personally. If yes … then the cross does not prevent sin, correct.

Why does sin still exist then … even amongst believers … even true believers. Sin is why Jesus had to die … yet it still exists … so why is this still so … if the cross was all powerful why do believers still sin.

Does the sin of a true believer not affect his soul? What effects do sin have on a true believer … as opposed to say a Catholic?

 

[moondweller]

What changes if this word if removed from the way we use it? Nothing

Everything. You would conform to what Scripture actually states:Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Rom 3:22-24 “…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;” (Christ’s work on the cross).

Rom 3:27 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"

Remaining justified is the taking up on one’s cross … bearing a piece of the burden from sin … but oh … you don’t have any responsibility.

Divine justification and salvation are based entirely on the redemption accomplished on ONE cross only, Christ’s, as stated in Rom. 3:24 above.

 

[ncgolf]

I do not know your path, but I pray you are on the correct one.

I appreciate that … all prayer is good and heard by the Father. As a husband and father I pray that your prayer is answered.

In regards to dispensing grace through the use of sacraments; I have never seen, read or heard of such a thing in the bible in the context that you speak of. I don’t see it but you do; so that is the way it is.

I am surprised then, the Catholic Church has taught this for 2000 years … it is not a new invention … it is as old as the Apostles.

If you read the Cathechism of the Catholic Church you will see how this is understood within the Church … maybe that is a good topic to begin on another thread.

 

[moondweller]

As a preventative … like a flu-shot. If so do you still sin … personally. If yes … then the cross does not prevent sin, correct.

Why does sin still exist then … even amongst believers … even true believers. Sin is why Jesus had to die … yet it still exists … so why is this still so … if the cross was all powerful why do believers still sin.

Does the sin of a true believer not affect his soul? What effects do sin have on a true believer … as opposed to say a Catholic?

Christ didn’t come to remove sin in the world. But through His sacrificial work He removed the power of sin to condemn:Rom 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."The removal of sin in this world (cosmos) is yet future. It’s removed when this world system (cosmos) is replaced with the “Kingdom of heaven,” Christ’s earthly Millennial Kingdom on earth.

Believers, still in this world, will be forever sanctified from sin when He “will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory” (Phil. 3:20-21). But sin in our yet unredeemed bodies has already been judged and condemned through Christ’s bodily sacrifice, once for all.

You see, the cross is God’s solution for sin, once for all.

 

[Seeking12]

Christ didn’t come to remove sin in the world. But through His sacrificial work He removed the power of sin to condemn:Rom 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."The removal of sin in this world (cosmos) is yet future. It’s removed when this world system (cosmos) is replaced with the “Kingdom of heaven,” Christ’s earthly Millennial Kingdom on earth.

Believers, still in this world, will be forever sanctified from sin when He “will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory” (Phil. 3:20-21). But sin in our yet unredeemed bodies has already been judged and condemned through Christ’s bodily sacrifice, once for all.

You see, the cross is God’s solution for sin, once for all.

This was a very good analysis using a fair economy of words.

 

[qui_est_ce]

It’s a deal. However, my dropping the word "alone’ doesn’t change the context one iota. Faith is still mentioned alone whether I say it or not: “For by grace you have been saved through faith….” “Therefore having been justified by faith…” You see, nothing changes.

Except if you read 1 Corinthianas 13:
*1 Corinthians
Chapter 13
1
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4
Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5
it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6
it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8
4 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9
For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13
5 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; **but the greatest of these is love. *** What is Paul saying here Moon? This has been brough up before in this thread.

However, you drop the word “initial” and you find yourself warming up by my campfire.

dropping initial, still can’t warm up to your campfire.

Belief is complete trust in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ for salvation (Acts 16:31 cf. Jn. 3:14-15). Belief in respect to salvation is trusting in the finished work of Someone else.

and that belief calls for a response on our part.

As to the latter part of your question, shall I who have died to sin (with Christ) still live in it?

Are you saying you never sin? .

However, is one saved by not cheating on taxes? Not abusing kids? Not lying? Not praying? I know a lot of people who don’t do those things and are not saved.

No, but we can lose our salvation if we die in sin. .

How can that be, Christine?I’ve already given my definition within my posts. What’s yours?Not all are saved because not all believe - including many of the religious.

And I gave you mine previously. ALL are saved by Jesus perfect Sacrifice on the Cross. Those who do not participate in what is LACKING, will go to Hell if they do not confess. *
Colossians 1:24
13 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up **what is lacking *14 in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, It’s not just St Paul who suffers, we all suffer.
.

One HAS “eternal” salvation if he’s saved. If one’s salvation isn’t eternal then one is not saved. Do you know what “eternal life” means, Christine?

We do not attain eternal salvation until we are judged at our death.

 

[ncgolf]

This was a very good analysis using a fair economy of words.

But lacking in one important reality.

Rom 8:1 “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

There is an assumption on moon’s part that he is in Christ Jesus … he can make this statement because at one point or another he proclaimed it … maybe outloud but interiorly as well. It is not God’s faithfulness to us I question … it is our faithfullness to God that is in doubt.

In your theology there should no reluctance to admit any sin … and still admit you are saved … thus proving the soundness of your gospel. The power in the gospel you preach is that sin does not affect my salvation … but in reality no one wants to admit any sin … even Catholics … though we do this in reconciliation … we admit them in persona Chirsto … we admit them to Jesus himself … I still have to swallow hard before doing this

To remain in Christ Jesus means to remain faithful to Christ Jesus … sin casts doubt on our faithfulness (thus faith) in Christ Jesus.

It should be easy for a true believer to admit their sins … out loud … for there is no power left in them to condemn, but I have yet to see any true believer admit sin … even to prove their gospel … unless they have too … like many disgraced preachers.

Why the reluctance? The only condemnation that counts is God’s and with that absolute assurance there should be no worries?

Let me ask … if you have committed sin after receiving eternal salvation … have you ever asked God for forgiveness … and if so why? What does it do if you bear no personal responsibility?

Because deep down sin does show a lack of faithfullness … perhaps we are not as strong as we thought … we know sin hurts and it never shines someone … it always sullies someone.

 

[paul_c]

Sure it is. If you can’t be saved except by the demonstration of works, then you are saved by works alone. Works, as a means for salvation, cancel out both faith and grace

no, because you also can’t be saved without sanctifying grace through the sacraments and through faith. Because if your actions are not to glorify God, they are not sanctifying. Intent is important. Good works, just for show, are the rewards unto themselves. You’ve read that in Matthew chapter 6 : 1-6right?

"(But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. "When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you

.
You see, if you do it with your own Glory in mind, you are not sanctified, but if you do it for the Glory of God, you will be rewarded.

.

So the cross was merely the way God opened up (or, made available) heaven? Not a solution for sin?But not a solution for sin.But not the divine solution for sin.I do.

Well, the cross heals you of all former sin, as often as you go to it (you can be healed of sin post baptism through the sacrament of reconciliation). Once cleansed of sin through the Cross (as signified in baptism and reconciliation), the individual is responsible for staying in the state of Grace.

No, my friend, Paul wasn’t “Catholic.”

Of course Paul was Catholic. He understood the hierarchy of the Church and you see him decribing in Galatians, how he Checked with Peter on two occasions to make sure that he was on the right path. This is Galations 1:18:

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Cephas and remained with him for fifteen days

. This is Galations 2: 1-2:

Then after fourteen years I again went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. I went up in accord with a revelation, and I presented to them the gospel that I preach to the Gentiles–but privately to those of repute–so that I might not be running, or have run, in vain.

You also see him being sent out by the church on his missionary journeys. Heres an example from ACts 15: 1-5 :

Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question. They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers. When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, as well as by the apostles and the presbyters, and they reported what God had done with them. But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law.”

So you’r statement that Paul wasn’t Catholic is completely with merit.

 

[paul_c]

He knew nothing of “initial” salvation or "initial" justification. He preached the word of the cross not as a means for “sanctifying grace” in order to be saved by works, but the divine solution for sin, once for all, for those who believe:1 Cor 1:21-24 “For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

You know, Moondweller, the beauty of the Catholic position is that it can accept all of scripture at face value with no need to ignore or try to explain away any statement of scripture. We don’t need the work initial justification. That is only for talking to you , who seem to believe that man’s actions on his own behalf are inconsequential and that man can not turn away from his own salvation through sin. Man is justified to God by Jesus, through Baptism. This has no merit on the part of man. You can not ignore baptism as a legitimate sacrament for repentance and the forgiveness of sins. The Gospels open with baptism (John the Baptist). Jesus is Baptized before he starts his mission. So is Paul. They baptize all their converts through out the Gospel and Acts. You can not deny confession either. Its also throughout the Bible. Here is John 20: 21-23:

(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained

." Finally, the fact that you need to do good works to be saved: Without posting again, I will remind you of Matt 7: 21-23, Matt 19: 16-19, Matthew 25: 32-46, John 3: 19-21, and John 5: 28-29, All of which say that those who do good deads will go to heaven and those that do evil deeds will be condemned.

As for once saved always saved, its clearly not biblical. here is mark 14-20:

The sower sows the word. These are the ones on the path where the word is sown. As soon as they hear, Satan comes at once and takes away the word sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground who, when they hear the word, receive it at once with joy. But they have no root; they last only for a time. Then when tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Those sown among thorns are another sort. They are the people who hear the word, but worldly anxiety, the lure of riches, and the craving for other things intrude and choke the word, and it bears no fruit.
But those sown on rich soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit thirty and sixty and a hundredfold

Note, the people who are represented by the rocky ground and those in the thorns are both believers who fall away…

Here’s Peter talking about people being holy for holiness sake and people being judged according to one’s works in 1 Peter1: 14-19

Like obedient children, do not act in compliance with the desires of your former ignorance but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, “Be holy because I (am) holy.” Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, realizing that you were ransomed from your futile conduct, handed on by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless unblemished lamb.

You know James believed that works are required to be saved in James 2:24;

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone

Jude 14-15 says: "

Behold, the Lord has come with his countless holy ones to execute judgment on all and to convict everyone for all the godless deeds that they committed and for all the harsh words godless sinners have uttered against him."

Again, another new testament author describing the condemnation for evil deeds.

Paul in 1Tim 6: 12 -14 shows that you need to persevere in holiness to be saved;

Compete well for the faith. Lay hold of eternal life, to which you were called when you made the noble confession in the presence of many witnesses. I charge (you) before God, who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus, who gave testimony under Pontius Pilate for the noble confession, to keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ

Note, he tells Timothy to keep the commandment without STAIN or reproach until the end of time. He tells him to Compete well for the faith.

So Moondweller, I have given you examples that are counter to your theology from every new testament author. Everyone of these statements is supported by Catholic Theology. Please come home to the one true faith.

 

[paul_c]

**I am not judging whether you are right or wrong; that is between you and God. But when you compare what you are taught to what God has said, then you will gain confidence and understanding in your walk. One only has one life on this earth to get it right; Jesus has shown us the path He wants all people to take, but for whatever reasons, sin being number one, a majority of religious people chose the wrong path, the broad one that leads to destruction. I do not know your path, but I pray you are on the correct one. **
Seeking12, you are greatly decieved as is moondweller, Please look at my answer to him above, which describes many of the places that scripture is in direct opposition to your theological construct.

In regards to dispensing grace through the use of sacraments; I have never seen, read or heard of such a thing in the bible in the context that you speak of. I don’t see it but you do; so that is the way it is.

Seeking 12,
what do the Gospel accounts begin with? St. John the baptist. What is the first thing Jesus does as an adult, prior to starting his mission on earth: Get Baptized. What is the first thing that St. Paul does when the scales fall from his eyes in Damascus? Get Baptized. What do they do with their converts: Baptize them. What does St. John say in John3: 5

Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit

.
Notice you need to be born of WATER and spirit to enter the kingdom of God (i.e., be baptized). God clearly recognizes baptism. He put it in place.

 

[Seeking12]

But lacking in one important reality.

There is an assumption on moon’s part that he is in Christ Jesus … he can make this statement because at one point or another he proclaimed it … maybe outloud but interiorly as well. It is not God’s faithfulness to us I question … it is our faithfullness to God that is in doubt.

In your theology there should no reluctance to admit any sin … and still admit you are saved … thus proving the soundness of your gospel. The power in the gospel you preach is that sin does not affect my salvation … but in reality no one wants to admit any sin … even Catholics … though we do this in reconciliation … we admit them in persona Chirsto … we admit them to Jesus himself … I still have to swallow hard before doing this

To remain in Christ Jesus means to remain faithful to Christ Jesus … sin casts doubt on our faithfulness (thus faith) in Christ Jesus.

It should be easy for a true believer to admit their sins … out loud … for there is no power left in them to condemn, but I have yet to see any true believer admit sin … even to prove their gospel … unless they have too … like many disgraced preachers.

Why the reluctance? The only condemnation that counts is God’s and with that absolute assurance there should be no worries?

**Let me ask … if you have committed sin after receiving eternal salvation … have you ever asked God for forgiveness … and if so why? ** What does it do if you bear no personal responsibility?

Because deep down sin does show a lack of faithfullness … perhaps we are not as strong as we thought … we know sin hurts and it never shines someone … it always sullies someone.

Yes I do; not because I don’t know that they are already forgiven; I do know, but out of recognition that I have dishonored the Father whom I love and loves me. If someone you love genuinely asks you to forgive them for an offense against you; have you already forgiven them before they asked? Isn’t it nice that they recognize the offense and apologized for it; especially in light of the love you share? Doesn’t that act draw you closer?

 

[Seeking12]

Seeking12, you are greatly decieved as is moondweller, Please look at my answer to him above, which describes many of the places that scripture is in direct opposition to your theological construct.

**What you describe seems to be a “works-salvation”, which I do not see from a Biblical perspective.
**

Seeking 12,
what do the Gospel accounts begin with? St. John the baptist. What is the first thing Jesus does as an adult, prior to starting his mission on earth: Get Baptized. What is the first thing that St. Paul does when the scales fall from his eyes in Damascus? Get Baptized. What do they do with their converts: Baptize them. What does St. John say in John3: 5 .
Notice you need to be born of WATER and spirit to enter the kingdom of God (i.e., be baptized). God clearly recognizes baptism. He put it in place.
I’m not sure exactly what you are saying, but I think you are suggesting that water baptism is necessary for salvation. Although baptism is commanded by the Lord, it is not a means of salvation. What or who is the only means of salvation? Born of water is not water baptism; water symbolized a ritual of purification the Jews practiced in the OT, which Nicodemus was a Jewish leader. Look at Nicodemus response, nothing that even remotely indicates he thought of Baptism. However, in verse 8 of John 5; Jesus explains what He means “born of the spirit”.
Here is a link for your convenience: searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=joh+3:4&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
Seeking12, you are greatly decieved as is moondweller, Please look at my answer to him above, which describes many of the places that scripture is in direct opposition to your theological construct.

What you describe seems to be a “works-salvation”, which I do not see from a Biblical perspective.

I just posted about 10 biblical references from every single new testament author saying that you need to do good works to be saved in the two notes to Moondweller. This is not to say that good works alone will save you. If they are not done for the glory of God, then no sanctification occurs. This point is covered in Matt 6, as I previously pointed out.

Seeking 12,
what do the Gospel accounts begin with? St. John the baptist. What is the first thing Jesus does as an adult, prior to starting his mission on earth: Get Baptized. What is the first thing that St. Paul does when the scales fall from his eyes in Damascus? Get Baptized. What do they do with their converts: Baptize them. What does St. John say in John3: 5 .
Notice you need to be born of WATER and spirit to enter the kingdom of God (i.e., be baptized). God clearly recognizes baptism. He put it in place.

I’m not sure exactly what you are saying, but I think you are suggesting that water baptism is necessary for salvation. Although baptism is commanded by the Lord, it is not a means of salvation. What or who is the only means of salvation? Born of water is not water baptism; water symbolized a ritual of purification the Jews practiced in the OT, which Nicodemus was a Jewish leader. Look at Nicodemus response, nothing that even remotely indicates he thought of Baptism. However, in verse 8 of John 5; Jesus explains what He means “born of the spirit”.
Here is a link for your convenience: searchgodsword.org/desk/?..sr=1&sc=1&l=en

First of all, yes, I was showing you how the bible demonstrated that Baptism is required for salvation. As for your quote,"

The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit

, it does not deny water baptism which is decribed 3 verses earlier. So substitute born of the spirit with Wind in the first half of the simile:

Those **born of the spirit blows where they **wishs and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where they come from and where **they are **going

. So those born of the spirit are unpredictable by mere men.

 

[Seeking12]

I just posted about 10 biblical references from every single new testament author saying that you need to do good works to be saved in the two notes to Moondweller. This is not to say that good works alone will save you. If they are not done for the glory of God, then no sanctification occurs. This point is covered in Matt 6, as I previously pointed out.

First of all, yes, I was showing you how the bible demonstrated that Baptism is required for salvation. As for your quote," , it does not deny water baptism which is decribed 3 verses earlier. So substitute born of the spirit with Wind in the first half of the simile:
. So those born of the spirit are unpredictable by mere men.

**If you believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation, then you believe that, but I do not see that in Scripture. Do you believe that salvation is wholly the work of God or do you believe it is Jesus plus one’s good works? If water baptism was so important; I believe Jesus would have personally baptized as many people as possible, if for no other reason to set the example to the Apostles and all the saints throughout the ages. Then there is the question; what about those that were saved apart from water baptism? Why did Paul specially state he was not sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel? Is God being inconsistent? Good works, which God predestined that believers will walk in, are the result, not the means of salvation.
**

 

[Seeking12]

**If you believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation, then you believe that, but I do not see that in Scripture. Do you believe that salvation is wholly the work of God or do you believe it is Jesus plus one’s good works? If water baptism was so important; I believe Jesus would have personally baptized as many people as possible, if for no other reason to set the example to the Apostles and all the saints throughout the ages. Then there is the question; what about those that were saved apart from water baptism? Why did Paul specially state he was not sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel? Is God being inconsistent? Good works, which God predestined that believers will walk in, are the result, not the means of salvation.
**

Continued:
**

Paul, if you would like I can take those versus one at a time and explain it from the biblical understanding. I say this; the verse(s) in James if taken in the context that you put them in would be in direct contradiction to Romans 4:2 “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.”

and also contradict

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Does God contradict Himself? What then does James mean? James is addressing those folks we see today, the “easy believism”, you know just say the prayer, make a public profession, walk the isle, raise your hand and don’t worry about the obedience and you are saved. I’m sure you seen and heard about this “other” gospel especially on TV. James is refuting this type of person because James is saying the result of salvation, which is by faith, will be evident by “good works”. Remember when Jesus told people “get up and walk” or said your sins are forgiven while healing, but the Pharisees questioned Him about forgiving sins and Jesus responded with a question “is it easier to say your sins are forgiven or get up and walk”. Jesus point is that anyone could say your sins are forgiven, but no one but the Son can actually forgive and showed this power by healing".
**

 

[Matariel]

If you believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation, then you believe that, but I do not see that in Scripture.

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

“Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

“He who believes **and is baptized **will be saved.”

Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins”.

I don’t know, sounds like baptism isn’t just an empty symbol like you suggest…

 

[paul_c]

Continued:
**

Paul, if you would like I can take those versus one at a time and explain it from the biblical understanding. I say this; the verse(s) in James if taken in the context that you put them in would be in direct contradiction to Romans 4:2 “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.”

and also contradict

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. **
The quote from James is straight English, but it doesn’t contract the quotes you list above, It explains and exands it. There is no faith alone, nor are their works alone. Both are required. When you are baptised, you gain the necessary sactifying grace to be saved. However, you need to stay in the state of grace until death to be saved. If you lose your sanctification (holiness) through sin, then you need to be reconciled through the sacrament of reconciliation. Staying in the state of grace requires both faith and works to demonstrate that faith. That’s what St. James is pointing out. That is why when Jesus is asked point blank in Matthew 19 (and the Mark and Luke corrolaries) what must be done to be saved, he answered follow the commandments. in Matthew chapter 6 and other places that works without faith are to no account, just as St. james says faith without works are dead. You need to have faith to do good works for the Glory of God, otherwise it is not sanctifying. so neither faith nor works is sufficient on their own and without sanctifying grace from the sacraments, neither is of any use for salvation

Does God contradict Himself? What then does James mean? James is addressing those folks we see today, the “easy believism”, you know just say the prayer, make a public profession, walk the isle, raise your hand and don’t worry about the obedience and you are saved. I’m sure you seen and heard about this “other” gospel especially on TV. James is refuting this type of person because James is saying the result of salvation, which is by faith, will be evident by “good works”.

you know, the Apostles did this too, they were given the ability to forgive sins in John 20.and they were also given the power to make a lame man walk.

 

[guanophore]

What you describe seems to be a “works-salvation”, which I do not see from a Biblical perspective.

I should think not. There is no such thing as “works-salvation”. No one can be saved by works. Since the Scripture is produced by the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church does not teach this error, it stands to reason that you would not see it in the Bible.

I’m not sure exactly what you are saying, but I think you are suggesting that water baptism is necessary for salvation. Although baptism is commanded by the Lord, it is not a means of salvation.

Actually, it was Jesus who commanded this. It was not a “suggestion”. He stated clearly that one must be born from above through water and the Spirit in order to enter the Kingdome.

What or who is the only means of salvation?

Baptism is the means by which His sacrificial death is applied to the person.

The Bible - Search & Read the Bible Online with Study Tools

Read and study the Bible online with over 100 translations and languages. Read verses by topic, study Scripture with commentary, and apply the Word of God with articles for Biblical living today.

www.biblestudytools.com

It is interesting that all of the Apostles misunderstood this, and that Jesus was to weak or disinterested to correct their misperceptions.

It is also very wayward of Christ to teach the disciples to baptize with water, when He did not intend for it to have any meaning.

 

[Seeking12]

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

“Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

“He who believes **and is baptized **will be saved.”

Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins”.

I don’t know, sounds like baptism isn’t just an empty symbol like you suggest…

**Do you believe that a command that Jesus gave is an empty symbol?

If you examine the Greek construction on the Acts 2, you will come to a different conclusion, which is consistent with Scripture.

I have already today addressed the dialogue with Nicodemus concerning the word “water”.**