Someone can lose their salvation?

[moondweller]

Hi, Mooddweller,

To be honest: No. I do not understand how you can come up with all of these different ‘senses’ in order to make a distinction.

It’s called context, Tom.

 

[Church_Militant]

It’s called context

, Tom.Context this then…

Revelation 3:5 He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Name in Book of life = Eternal Life, right?

Name not in Book of Life = condemnation to hell, right?

Scripture above shows names being in that Book of Life and then blotted out.

Show me how that is not loss of salvation.

 

[guanophore]

He’s speaking in a practical sense, not a salvation sense. For instance, there’s a difference between having been saved by faith and those who "have been saved by grace through faith…

Every time I think I have seen it all on this board, I come across something that convinces me that I have not!
moondweller;4838821:

"But the righteous shall live by faith

."[/indent]And in the life he lives by faith (practical sense, not salvation sense) he exercises love toward God, fellow brethren in the faith, and fellow men.

Catholics think of this as working our our salvation/being saved.

Can you see the difference,

Only insofar as those who have been saved referring to those who have completed the race.

Albeit, faith is greater than love in a *salvation*

sense. For we’re not saved through how much we love (practically), but to the extent that God loved us:

Quite a convoluted dance! I guess it is necessary to understand it that way to prevent “salvation” from being present tense.

 

[guanophore]

according to the Scriptures it is taught that by/through faith God justifies. Hence, faith must precede grace.

No, Moon, this is faulty logic. Man, by virtue of his fallen nature, is unable to respond to God’s grace. Faith must be kindled by grace before it is able to respond. CAtholics call this “prevenient” grace, most evangelicals call it “drawing” grace.

It is the grace that Jesus speaks of in John 6:44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;…”

 Paul's logic, "For 'if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise grace is no longer grace," has to do with grace vs. works.  Not grace vs. faith.

Yet we know that persons who do good works in a state of grace ARE justified in their doing. This is so because it is based in grace, through faith.

In Divine revelation there’s no such thing as “initial” justification.

It does not make any sense that you would make such a statement. You will be the first to admit that there is a beginning when we start our life with God. It is the beginning.

The divine act of justification, through faith in Christ, is stated as a once for all accomplished FACT:

Rom 3:22-24 “…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned (in Adam) and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”
​

There is nothing in this passage that states what you claim. There is no “once for all” here.

Those who believe are those who are “doers” of the law. There are some who begin in faith, then fall away. Righteous is as righteous does.

We are all in agreement that justification is a gift of God that is given by His grace. We are all in agreement that redemption comes through the blood of Christ.

 Rom. 3:26-27 "....so that **He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus**. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? **Of works? No, but by a law of faith**. For we maintain that a man is justified **by faith** **apart from works of law**."

Catholics maintain this also. The only place catholics don’t believe this is the “catholics” that are in the Mind of Moon.

 Yes, through/by FAITH.But you need to consider that the ONLY works ever prescribed by God to man, after the fall in the Garden, was in covenant form, and that covenant was the conditional Law of Moses made with national Israel at Mt. Sinai.

I am curious what makes you say this was conditional…but that is beyond the scope of this thread.

  This covenant of works was not made with the Gentiles.  Gentiles were never required to do the works of that Law.  It was a covenant made with national Israel only.

I think this statement denotes an error also. The covenant of made with Moses was not a “covenant of works” either. It was a covenant in faith. The fact that works were part of it (inseparable) does not change the basis of the covenant. God saved Israel by His grace. Those who respond to His grace in faith are made part of His covenant. They do the works of faith that are contained in the covenant relationship. THis is a type and a shadow of what was to come.

God now also saves Gentiles by HIs grace, through faith. They do the works of the covenant in response to His grace. This is the fulfillment of the Law.

But the Biblical doctrine of righteousness based on faith alone predates the Law of Moses by 430 years.

It is true that God has always saved humans by grace, through faith. However, it is not a “doctrine” that comes from the Bible. IT existed before the Bible was written.​

 

[guanophore]

FAITH is connected to PROMISE, not works.

Here again is that deficient “either/or” thinking. Works are not disconnected, either, from faith and the promise. That is why, immediately after the Apostle writes that we are saved by grace through faith, he specifies that this is done “for” the works. They all go together.

There is no “faith and not” or “grace and not” or “works and not”. They are inseparable.

Paul's doctrinal argument against works is not restricted to works of the Law of Moses, but works, period.

An adequate defense against Pelagianism!

 Because, like Abraham, men are justified "*by faith*" alone.

We are in agreement except for your lonliness. You seem to want to make faith be alone, but it is never alone. It is always accompanied by love and hope.

1 Cor 13:12-14:1
13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Don’t you ever wonder, if it is all “based” on faith, why faith is not the greatest?

James 2:20-24
20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Faith “alone” is barren.

This, I think, is why the Reformed attitude toward salvation seems barren to me. The thrust is to make faith be “alone”, which was never intended by God.

And men are to now believe in Christ alone for the promise of eternal life (Jn. 3:14-18).

Christ is never “alone” either. He created His Body, the Church, and chose to be born into a human family, and has adopted all those who come to Him into that family, so that none of us are alone either.

Why would man want to divide what God has joined?

Abraham is called the father of all Jews and Gentiles who, like him, God credited it (their faith) to them as righteousness (Rom. 4:3, 5). Which is what “justification” means.

Yes. We are all in agreement on this point.

We are also in agreement that there is a point at which this happens/begins - is initiated.

Phil 1:6
“…he who began a good work in you …”
moondweller;4835251:

There is/was no other work than that which was prescribed in the Law of Moses. But the Law ended with Christ (Rom. 10:4). What remains, since the coming of Messiah (to Whom the Law pointed

) is faith, alone - like our father Abraham.

No, Moon. Faith is never alone. Abraham’s faith was not alone, and neither is ours. It is always accompanied by obedience to His commandments.

 

[ncgolf]

Since Abraham it’s revealed in the Scriptures that divine justification is conditioned on personal faith (Gen. 15:6).

For us, this side of the cross, the object of that faith, by which God justifies the sinner, is the Person and, once for all, sacrificial work of the incarnate Son.

Love is the fruit of the Spirit who now indwells the justified as they "walk by the Spirit"Gal 5:16 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 “If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”

I left this out on purpose previously … you had to skip over this to get to your verses … I do not understand how one reads Paul like you do … Galations 5:5-6

“5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.”

From what I understand hope is not translated as the hope we commonly think of like, I hope I get the new job but that of expectation. There is an expectation that living by faith we should expect righteousness.

Explain away verse 6 … it is not nor does Paul write of faith being alone.

These verses do not reconcile with your theology … Paul should have written this then "5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we have received righteousness. 6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything but faith alone.” … but he did not … did he.

 

[qui_est_ce]

He’s speaking in a practical sense, not a salvation sense. For instance, there’s a difference between having been saved by faith and those who “have been saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works” now living/walking by faith.

Gal 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.”
​

Hi, Mooddweller,
To be honest: No. I do not understand how you can come up with all of these different ‘senses’ in order to make a distinction.

Let’s see what we have in your post two types of senses;

1.) Practical Sense

2.) Salvation Sense

Then we have these senses superimposed or applied to the saved (and by excluson the un-saved).

May I suggest that a ‘third’ sense by applied at this point? Common Sense

You have a very unique way of looking at things I give you that.

It seems there are as many interpretations of scripture as there are belly buttons. I thank you for sharing yours.

OOO now don’t go getting your bellybuttons tied up in knots !​

 

[guanophore]

By the way, what is this emphasis on Paul and Romans? What about what Jesus actually SAID? I won’t make references because they have been posted earlier in this thread. These verses were never directly addressed by Moon. His replies of cherry picked verses that seemingly contradict Jesus’ very words skirt the references. And worse, give fodder to those who treat the Bible as a piece of fiction.

I think it’s a terrible witness to the beauty of the WHOLE TRUTH.

It is, indeed, a terrible witness. But those who are steeped in Reformed theology are also taught that Jesus did not have much to say about salvation. He is believed to have been teaching the Jews about what they needed to do to be saved. It is taught in reformed circles that only Paul gives the cogent "doctrines’ about salvation to the Gentiles. This is why Paul is center to the philosopy/theology and other parts of the NT and even the old are disregarded or reclassified as non-related.

 

[guanophore]

Go back and read my posts. I posted a list of passages that stated faith alone for salvation. And that was just a sample of them.

I read all your posts, Moon. I can see that you put a lot of effort and thought into them. I think they hold a lot of truth for misguided Catholics who believe they can work their way into heaven.

The passages never state that faith is “alone”. However, I understand why you interpret them that way.

FAITH is connected to PROMISE, not works.

Here again is that deficient “either/or” thinking. Works are not disconnected, either, from faith and the promise. That is why, immediately after the Apostle writes that we are saved by grace through faith, he specifies that this is done “for” the works. They all go together.

There is no “faith and not” or “grace and not” or “works and not”. They are inseparable.

Paul's doctrinal argument against works is not restricted to works of the Law of Moses, but works, period.

An adequate defense against Pelagianism!

 Because, like Abraham, men are justified "*by faith*" alone.

We are in agreement except for your lonliness. You seem to want to make faith be alone, but it is never alone. It is always accompanied by love and hope.

1 Cor 13:12-14:1
13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Don’t you ever wonder, if it is all “based” on faith, why faith is not the greatest?

James 2:20-24
20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Faith “alone” is barren.

This, I think, is why the Reformed attitude toward salvation seems barren to me. The thrust is to make faith be “alone”, which was never intended by God.

And men are to now believe in Christ alone for the promise of eternal life (Jn. 3:14-18).

Christ is never “alone” either. He created His Body, the Church, and chose to be born into a human family, and has adopted all those who come to Him into that family, so that none of us are alone either.

Why would man want to divide what God has joined?

Abraham is called the father of all Jews and Gentiles who, like him, God credited it (their faith) to them as righteousness (Rom. 4:3, 5). Which is what “justification” means.

Yes. We are all in agreement on this point.

We are also in agreement that there is a point at which this happens/begins - is initiated.

Phil 1:6
“…he who began a good work in you …”
moondweller;4835251:

There is/was no other work than that which was prescribed in the Law of Moses. But the Law ended with Christ (Rom. 10:4). What remains, since the coming of Messiah (to Whom the Law pointed

) is faith, alone - like our father Abraham.

No, Moon. Faith is never alone. Abraham’s faith was not alone, and neither is ours. It is always accompanied by obedience to His commandments.Just as there are MANY stating the the word “believe” alone.But in context.Or interpreting Scripture based on said “Sacred Tradition” produces all sorts of inconsistencies and contradictions.It was taking it out of context that produced the error. Taking Scripture out of context can produce a false “sacred tradition” as well.

 

[guanophore]

Or interpreting Scripture based on said “Sacred Tradition” produces all sorts of inconsistencies and contradictions.

I can certainly see how it would appear that way to those who are separated from the Apostolic Tradition. Your spiritual fathers, the Reformers, felt it necessary to make this cut away from the Succession to preserve what they believed was the 'true gospel".

It was taking it out of context that produced the error. Taking Scripture out of context can produce a false “sacred tradition” as well.

I agree absolutly. The context of the NT is the Catholic Church. It was produced entirely of Sacred Tradition (the teachings of the Apsotles) and once the NT was removed from the Church which produced it, a false tradition, known as “the Reformation” was created.

 

[guanophore]

For anyone to even begin a faith journey, to me, implies grace.

I agree. But Moon says there is no such thing as “intial justification”, which is to us is getting into right relationship with God in the first place.

You have a very unique way of looking at things I give you that. The essence of God is love … in a sense that is what God** is** … so any fruit of that love is less than it’s origin. Faith cannot ever be greater than love because the divine love (agape) produced it … God’s grace is the Holy Spirit and in that Spirit (love) comes faith … never the other way around. That is why they cannot be seperated into your formula. You can say love produced faith but never faith produced love … I am talking here of God … not on how we act on those graces.
But in your theology … you really don’t need to do these extra “works” do you?

Yes, he most certainly does! He just does not think they have anything to do with salvation.

So a “saved” person walking in their faith that does not love others in return nor forgives … is still saved. You did say “should love” and “should forgive”… so I take it as optional … if you feel like it or maybe they are worthy of such a priviledge.

Yes, in Reformed theology a saved person must walk their faith. If they don’t though, it does not affect their salvation.

In your theology you cannot say “must” … like a commandment (didn’t Jesus say there are only 2) … that would imply works … so loving and forgiving is optional … they should do those things but there really is no requirement … is there?

The saved are obedient out of love for being saved.

 

[ncgolf]

Yes, he most certainly does! He just does not think they have anything to do with salvation.

Okay … I am understanding Moon’s position a little better. Anything external to the act of faith is useless for salvation … it may be great, miraculous work but please don’t tie it to my salvation … lest I should boast.

You won’t meet any group more humbler though than the Saints.

The funny thing is I never really consider faith … my own. I cannot, in my own mind, conceive of saying, “I believe Jesus is my Savior” and not doing anything about it.

It almost seems grace getting in the way of grace … don’t mix-up my saving grace with any of the non-saving kind.

 

[paul_c]

Moondweller,
I think the problem here is more the Once Saved always saved issue, not the Faith alone issue.

I can agree with you that man is saved by Grace through Faith. This is accomplished in Baptism and does not require any works at all. So lets stop arguing about this and focus on the real issue.

The difference between us really comes down to the question: “Once given sanctifying Grace, can one lose it.”

Your position on this is very clear. You believe that the gift of sanctifying grace is forever. The Catholic view is the polar opposite. We believe that you can fall from Grace through sin. When you think about it, this was proven in the very first book of the Bible by the very first people, Adam and Eve. Didn’t they fall from Grace in the Garden of Eden when they chose to sin by eating the forbidden fruit?

Every other issue we are discussing is solved by this simple fact, Man must stay in the state of Grace to enter into Heaven.
Once you accept this, by definition, you must do good works to stay in the state of Grace. The mercy offered in the Sacrament of Reconciliation follows upon that, giving man hope and returning him to a state of Grace when he falls.

Yesterday, I started discussing how well the entire Catholic Sotierology is described in the Book of Romans. I pointed out that in Chapter 1 verses 5-7 Paul calls all to be holy through the obedience of faith. He discusses this concept for the rest of the Chapter.

Chapter 2 is about being judged on the basis of your works and that you must persevere in your works to reach heaven… Here is the summation verses 5-8:

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

Chapter 3 focusses on the fact that we are all sinners and can not be justified without the Grace of God. and that justification comes through Faith.

Chapter 4 further explains the fact that we are saved through Grace and Faith, using Abraham as an example of one who had faith and thus was justified.

Chapter 5 finishes up the section of justification through faith by focusing on the saving Act of Jesus.

Chapter 6 starts with the fact that when we are baptized we die to sin and live in newness. Here is the key passage (vs 3-4):

Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

He then concludes this chapter by discussing the need for sanctification: vs 22-23

But now that you have been freed from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit that you have leads to sanctification, and its end is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Chapters 7-11 deal with predestination of the elect, including a long discussion concerning the roles of Gentiles vs Jews. In the last chapter of this section (11), Paul notes that you must persevere in Faith to be saved Vs 22:

See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off

For the rest of the book , Paul describes how to live a life of love and holiness.

So Moondweller, there you have it. Paul discusses the need for Baptism and to live lives of holiness. He acknowledges that you get the gift of grace through faith through no work of your own. He acknowledges predestination but also so that those who do good works will go to heaven and those that sin will be condemned. He spends 4 chapters describing how to live a life of holiness. and he notes that perseverence is required to attain heaven. This is Catholic sotierology in a nutshell.

 

[sodak]

Faith is a work. We are save by God’s grace alone.

Thank you. I was going to say that also. God loved us first, and our response is to love him back. Hopefully. If God didn’t love us first, we could not love him back. Because he loves us, he sends us grace. We respond to grace with our faith. That sounds like a work to me. While we might be saved by grace through faith, it is God’s grace that saves us, our faith is our work in cooperation with his grace. We don’t save ourselves.

If our faith saved us, then little unborn babies, the mentally handicapped, small children, and millions upon millions of people who have never heard the Gospel would all be doomed to Hell, simply because of circumstances beyond their control. That doesn’t sound like our loving God to me.

While we are bound to accept God’s grace through faith and also act upon it (both are works to me), God is not bound at all by that. God can shower his grace upon whomever and whatever he wants to. If he wants to save a rock or a fern tree, I’m sure he could do it. Whether or not he does, or would even want to, I have no idea.

Context this then…

Revelation 3:5 He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Name in Book of life = Eternal Life, right?

Name not in Book of Life = condemnation to hell, right?

Scripture above shows names being in that Book of Life and then blotted out.

Show me how that is not loss of salvation.

Good one!

 

[SHW]

I find that Romans 5:10 references both our initial salvation and our on-going life-long salvation process in one Scripture verse.

Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

Since we are saved much more by His life after our reconciliation with God, then “eternal security” is not a true doctrine since it means that a person is only saved “once and for all time” by His free gift of grace. They use the following Scripture verses as proof of their doctrine: Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.” and Romans 3:28 “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”

But neither of these verses state that justification happens only once. It is not a true doctrine. And neither of these verses state that it is by faith alone that we are justified for eternal life. Salvation by faith alone is not a true doctrine.

Titus 3:4-6 "But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Righteous works can not reconcile us to God either. Nothing can pay for Adam’s sin except for Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross.

First, we are justified through faith as a free gift of grace. This reconciliation with God is not achieved by the works of the Law of Moses. Those who died, before Jesus arrived on earth, could not enter eternal life until Jesus reconciled them to God by His perfect sacrifice. In other words, the gates of heaven were closed to everyone until Jesus atoned for all of us for Adam’s sin which had alienated us from God. Romans 5 They had to wait in the bosom of Abraham (limbo) Luke 16:22-23 or else they were in prison (purgatory) 1 Peter 3:19 until Jesus opened the gates of heaven for them so that they could enter.

How did God judge those persons as “worthy” to wait for Jesus to open the gates of heaven for them, so that they could enter eternal life, before Jesus’ reconciliation of them to God? The same way He judges all of us after Jesus’ reconciliation with God:

Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

The reconciliation of mankind with God by Jesus is the free gift of grace and God’s judgment of our free will choices to “fear God” and work righteousness" determines if we indeed continued in this reconciliation and are found worthy to enter eternal life. Jesus gave us the gift of salvation initially but we must maintain it for a lifetime in order to enter eternal life when we die.

to be continued…

 

[ncgolf]

Eph 2:8-10 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we should walk in them.”

Isn’t this a fancy way to say … if you talk the talk … walk the walk.

If you talk the talk but don’t walk the walk … then you are nothing.

Not as result of works … yes … what do Catholic say … we get this gift as an unmerited gracious gift enabling us to walk the walk, not for our edification but for the community … we give the gift we have been given.

 

[ncgolf]

Hebrews Chapter 10
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence; it will have great recompense.
36 You need endurance to do the will of God and receive what he has promised.
37 “For, after just a brief moment, he who is to come shall come; he shall not delay.
38 But my just one shall live by faith, and if he draws back I take no pleasure in him.”
39 We are not among those who draw back and perish, but among those who have faith and will possess life.

Words like endurance, confidence, draws back give a sense of a living faith … one that can be shook by the wordly concerns or desires but when we remain “in Christ” verse 39 is our confidence … grace enables us to live in the Spirit as verse 39 suggests.

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

**How, after our reconciliation with God, are we saved much more by Jesus’ life? **

The first Adam was not a good role model. He showed us how to disobey God and consequently He lost eternal life for all of us.

Jesus, the last Adam, 1 Corinthians 15:42-46 shows us by example how to obey God and tells us to follow Him (imitate Him) in order to inherit eternal life.

Luke 9:23 “Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.”

We must “imitate” Christ’s life in order to follow Him and be saved by His life. How did Christ live His life?

Philippians 2:8 “And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.”

He lived it in humility and obedience to His Father.

Hebrews 5:8-9 “though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,”

Romans 5:19 “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”

Romans 6:16 “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience
leading to righteousness?” (cf. James 4:7-10)

John 5:30 “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

Matthew 19:17-19 “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 …if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

We must imitate Jesus by loving God and obeying His commandments, in order to do the Father’s will, so that we can inherit eternal life.

Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.”

Since Jesus who created us, (cf. John 1:1-3) died on the cross in order to reconcile us to God, it is truly “reasonable” to expect that we must live a holy life in order to inherit eternal life with Him in heaven.

Romans 12:2 “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” (cf. Colossians 1:27-29, 1 Thessalonians 3:9-10, John 17:23, James 1:2-5)

We must prove by our actions (works) that we are doing the will of God.

1 Peter 1:13-19” Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”

Paul states: 1 Corinthians 11:1 “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.”

We imitate Jesus because He is holy and He shows us how to be holy by His own life on earth. We are judged by our works on Judgment Day.

Revelation 20:12 “And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.”

We are "saved much more by Jesus’ life after our reconciliation when we imitate Jesus’ life on earth and follow Him to heaven.

SHW

 

[guanophore]

The difference between us really comes down to the question: “Once given sanctifying Grace, can one lose it.”

In Reformed Theology, it seems that the refusal of the Christian to maintain a state of grace means that they were never in a state of grace to begin with. It also seems to mean to them that God is weak, or that He went back on His gift, or promise. To them, “to grieve the HS of God” does not mean a mortal wound, as it does to us.

 Your position on this is very clear.  You believe that the gift of sanctifying grace is forever.  The Catholic view is the polar opposite.

I don’t think so. I think that the gift is forever. However, people cna step out of the gift. If one repents, and returns to the state of grace, one can finish the race and win the prize. Stepping out of the grace, though, does not nullify it’s eternal quality. Just our ability to benefit from it. That would be having one’s name blotted out of the book of life. The book of life remains (sanctifying grace forever), it just no longer has our name it it.

We believe that you can fall from Grace through sin. When you think about it, this was proven in the very first book of the Bible by the very first people, Adam and Eve. Didn’t they fall from Grace in the Garden of Eden when they chose to sin by eating the forbidden fruit?

No. Adam and Eve did not need grace, because they were not created in sin. They were created in a right relationship with God. Grace is what restores the fallen to right relationship. You are right, however, being in right relationship with God they did choose to sin, and lost that relationship, with eternal consequences. The nature of sin has not changed. It separated us from God then, and it still does now.

Every other issue we are discussing is solved by this simple fact, Man must stay in the state of Grace to enter into Heaven.
Once you accept this, by definition, you must do good works to stay in the state of Grace. The mercy offered in the Sacrament of Reconciliation follows upon that, giving man hope and returning him to a state of Grace when he falls.

I would say this is generally true, however, good works are not “required” for salvation. For example, anyone who receives baptism, if they die without committing mortal sin, would be fit for heaven. In like manner, some persons are not capable of doing good works, such as disabled persons, but will enter heaven because they are baptized. There are other reasons a person might not be able to do good works, for example, if one is a thief and is nailed to a cross, one might have trouble doing good works.

So Moondweller, there you have it. Paul discusses the need for Baptism and to live lives of holiness. He acknowledges that you get the gift of grace through faith through no work of your own. He acknowledges predestination but also so that those who do good works will go to heaven and those that sin will be condemned. He spends 4 chapters describing how to live a life of holiness. and he notes that perseverence is required to attain heaven. This is Catholic sotierology in a nutshell.

Sounds like you are making a great bible study!

 

[guanophore]

Continued:

Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

**How, after **our reconciliation with God, are we saved much more by Jesus’ life?

The first Adam was not a good role model. He showed us how to disobey God and consequently He lost eternal life for all of us.

Jesus, the last Adam, 1 Corinthians 15:42-46 shows us by example how to obey God and tells us to follow Him (imitate Him) in order to inherit eternal life.

Luke 9:23 “Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.”

We must “imitate” Christ’s life in order to follow Him and be saved by His life. How did Christ live His life?

Philippians 2:8 “And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.”

He lived it in humility and obedience to His Father.

Hebrews 5:8-9 “though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,”

Romans 5:19 “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”

Romans 6:16 “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience
leading to righteousness?” (cf. James 4:7-10)

John 5:30 “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

Matthew 19:17-19 “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 …if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

We must imitate Jesus by loving God and obeying His commandments, in order to do the Father’s will, so that we can inherit eternal life.

Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.”

Since Jesus who created us, (cf. John 1:1-3) died on the cross in order to reconcile us to God, it is truly “reasonable” to expect that we must live a holy life in order to inherit eternal life with Him in heaven.

Romans 12:2 “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” (cf. Colossians 1:27-29, 1 Thessalonians 3:9-10, John 17:23, James 1:2-5)

We must prove by our actions (works) that we are doing the will of God.

1 Peter 1:13-19” Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”

Paul states: 1 Corinthians 11:1 “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.”

We imitate Jesus because He is holy and He shows us how to be holy by His own life on earth. We are judged by our works on Judgment Day.

Revelation 20:12 “And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.”

We are "saved much more by Jesus’ life after our reconciliation when we imitate Jesus’ life on earth and follow Him to heaven.

SHW

Great post.