Someone can lose their salvation?

[Howie01]

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias’ phrase “wash away” comes from the Greek word “apolouo.” “Apolouo” means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

I’ll reply to John Salza at my first opportunity.

 

[broski234]

I’ll reply to John Salza at my first opportunity.

How do you understand these verses in light of your interpretation of baptism as NOT being a salvific act?

 

[Howie01]

How do you understand these verses in light of your interpretation of baptism as NOT being a salvific act?

You’ve yet to demonstrate that you understand them; they’re not your work, but Mr. Salza’s.

 

[Howie01]

Lets review the passages you quote:
Eph 1: 13-14 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory

Note, this doesn’t talk about covering future sins, In fact, it says it is the first installment of our inheritance. This is the exact opposite of what you were claiming. It is not Once save only saved, it is the first installment toward redemption. You have to do God’s will to get to heaven.

Romans 7: 1-6 Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband. Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man. In the same way, my brothers, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the flesh, our sinful passions, awakened by the law, worked in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter.

Note how we are saved to do bear fruit for God and to serve. Both are doing the will of God. This passage says nothing about being forgiven for future sins. It says, instead that we are made into a new life to do the will of God.

Now on to col 2: 12-14: You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; obliterating the bond against us, with its legal claims, which was opposed to us, he also removed it from our midst, nailing it to the cross

Note, this says nothing about forgiveness for future sins either. It, in fact, says that you need to be baptized to be raised with Jesus through Faith.

So I guess I couldn’t have picked three passages myself that would tell the Story of salvation. You need to be baptized to gain the first installment of redemption after which you need to serve God and bear good fruit to gain the full redemption of Christ. In fact, these passages contradict your OSAS theology. Can you see this now?

First things first, Paul.

 

[paul_c]

This and your other post = Salza @ scripturecatholic.com? Right?

Wherever he got it, how do you answer to this overwhelming Scriptural support for the necessity of Baptism for Salvation. And I will say right up front that the only exceptions for salvation without actual baptism involve situations where the person desired baptism but was not able to get it due to the circumstances in his / her life. But the intent absolutely needs to be there.

 

[broski234]

You’ve yet to demonstrate that you understand them; they’re not your work, but Mr. Salza’s.

Well, excuse me for having to find a quick reference to verses supporting baptism as a salvific act while at work. I do not have a whole lot of time to give you a detailed answer at the moment. But this is your excuse to avoid the verses? And I have news for you…Everything you have stated has been someone elses work. You come at us with same old polemics that Catholics have put out centuries ago.

 

[broski234]

Wherever he got it, how do you answer to this overwhelming Scriptural support for the necessity of Baptism for Salvation. And I will say right up front that the only exceptions for salvation without actual baptism involve situations where the person desired baptism but was not able to get it due to the circumstances in his / her life. But the intent absolutely needs to be there.

Correct! That’s what the Church teaches. Thanks P!

 

[Howie01]

broski234:

Pay attention really close to this next verse…

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

But the Catholic Catechism does.1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to “plunge” or “immerse”; the “plunge” into the water symbolizes the catechumen’s burial into Christ’s death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as “a new creature.”

1217 In the liturgy of the Easter Vigil, during the blessing of the baptismal water, the Church solemnly commemorates the great events in salvation history that already prefigured the mystery of Baptism:

Father, you give us grace through sacramental signs,
which tell us of the wonders of your unseen power.

In Baptism we use your gift of water,
which you have made a rich symbol
of the grace you give us in this sacrament.

1220 If water springing up from the earth symbolizes life, the water of the sea is a symbol of death and so can represent the mystery of the cross. By this symbolism Baptism signifies communion with Christ’s death.

 

[broski234]

But the Catholic Catechism does.1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to “plunge” or “immerse”; the “plunge” into the water symbolizes the catechumen’s burial into Christ’s death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as “a new creature.”

1217 In the liturgy of the Easter Vigil, during the blessing of the baptismal water, the Church solemnly commemorates the great events in salvation history that already prefigured the mystery of Baptism:

Father, you give us grace through sacramental signs,
which tell us of the wonders of your unseen power.

In Baptism we use your gift of water,
which you have made a rich symbol
of the grace you give us in this sacrament.

1220 If water springing up from the earth symbolizes life, the water of the sea is a symbol of death and so can represent the mystery of the cross. By this symbolism Baptism signifies communion with Christ’s death.

And your point? Catholics believe that it is not just a symbolic ritual but a supernatural reality. So we believe this through our apostolic tradition. Which your church knows nothing about. I said that scripture doesn’t describe it as symbolic.

 

[Howie01]

And your point? Catholics believe that it is not just a symbolic ritual but a supernatural reality.

As do I.

Baptism is an external symbol of an internal reality, which external symbol is performed subsequent to the fact of the internal, supernatural reality (cf Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:12).

broski234:

So we believe this through our apostolic tradition. Which your church knows nothing about.

My church does know about your “apostolic tradition,” and we are critical of some of it.

 

[paul_c]

First things first, Paul.

I answered this in post 922. I wasn’t avoiding your questions.

Howie, your answers

 

[Howie01]

paul c:

I answered this in post 922. I wasn’t avoiding your questions.

What you’re doing is copping-out, Paul.

Here’s what you said:

The reformers like to think that we have no responsiblity to work toward holiness.

Please list the specific reformers to which you are referring, and their quotes making the statement(s) you attribute to them.

Or, admit that you can’t do that, either now, or when you first publicly posted your remark, and in spite of your inability to support your claim, you deliberately chose to misrepresent the reformers, as a whole, regardless of your inability.

 

[SHW]

Back to the point, the law spoken of in Rom 3:20 is the moral law, which is binding on all men everywhere, and which cannot save a man, but only kill him.

Hi Howie,

Jesus saves us (reconciles us to His Father) as a free gift of grace through Baptism (in/by which we make a profession of faith) and He remits all of our sins, whether Original Sin or our own personal (actual) sins, by this Baptism. Baptism justifies us, sanctifies us, and makes us disciples of Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11

Romans 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”

However; we only remain reconciled to Him (as sons/daughters of God) if we obey the Royal Law until we die. The Royal Law is for all of us, for all time.

James 2:1-10 "My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called? 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 **but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. **10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

We must obey all of the Royal Law. We cannot pick and choose which of the commandments of Jesus that we want to obey, and then disobey the rest, and still remain reconciled to God. If we break one commandment, then we are convicted as if we broke all of them, because it only takes one sin to break off our reconciliation with God, just as it took only one sin for Adam to lose eternal life for us. We will receive punishment for this sin, which is alienation from God and loss of eternal life. (God does not keep a balance sheet.)

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

Ephesians 5:5-7 “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”

If we do not obey the commandments, then we become sons of disobedience and we lose our inheritance to eternal life.

The Ten Commandments contained the Royal Law and also the **Sabbath commandments, ** but the Sabbath Laws, were never part of the Royal Law. The Royal Law was first and will remain until Jesus returns.

Adam, Cain, Noah, Abraham et al were never under the Sabbath laws but they all were under the Royal Law.

Jesus gives to us, just as He did to the rich young ruler, the Royal Law (commandments) as part of His New Covenant, and these must be obeyed or we will not inherit eternal life:

Matthew 19:15-19 “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him,… But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Note how Jesus keeps all of the commandments of the Old Testament in His New Covenant (even though He lumps some of them together) except for the laws regarding the Sabbath Day? He makes no mention of the commandments regarding the Sabbath. Why is this?

Because the Old Covenant was passing away and His New Covenant was being ushered in. The day of worship was going to be changed to the 1st day of the week, in commemoration of the day of our Lord Jesus’ resurrection.

1 John 2:7-9 “Brethren,** I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning**. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining. 9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now.”

Colossians 2:15-17 “Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

We now commemorate our new creation in Christ on the 1st day of the week instead of the 7th day which was the Sabbath Day of the first creation. The first day of the week is, of course, what we call “Sunday” and the Christian’s new formal worship day is now Sunday instead of the old Saturday Sabbath because the Old Covenant has passed away.

2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

What else comprises the commandments of Jesus which must be obeyed?

Mark 12:29-31 "Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?” 29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

This is very clear teaching and must be obeyed.

2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

What does it mean to be one “in Christ?” This will be the subject of a later post.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

Continued:

We now commemorate our new creation in Christ on the 1st day of the week instead of the 7th day which was the Sabbath Day of the first creation. The first day of the week is, of course, what we call “Sunday” and the Christian’s new formal worship day is now Sunday instead of the old Saturday Sabbath because the Old Covenant has passed away.

2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

What else comprises the commandments of Jesus which must be obeyed?

Mark 12:29-31 "Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?” 29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

This is very clear teaching and must be obeyed.

2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

What does it mean to be one “in Christ?” This will be the subject of a later post.

Pax,
SHW

The Royal Law argument.

Again, from Paul, "by the works of Law no flesh will be justified in His sight."

That is because the requirements for justification “by the works of Law” is perfection (Mt 5:48), that is why James says regarding the Royal Law, "for whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of [transgressing] all [the Law]" (Jas 2:8ff).

Stumble once, and perfection vanishes, and it becomes unattainable.

I would wish you well in your works of Law unto salvation, but I’m certain you’ve stumbled in the Royal Law already by not loving the Lord your God perfectly at all times, and by not loving your neighbor perfectly at all times.

 

[paul_c]

What you’re doing is copping-out, Paul.

Here’s what you saidlease list the specific reformers to which you are referring, and their quotes making the statement(s) you attribute to them.

Or, admit that you can’t do that, either now, or when you first publicly posted your remark, and in spite of your inability to support your claim, you deliberately chose to misrepresent the reformers, as a whole, regardless of your inability.

Howie, thank you for continuing to push me on this issue. I do owe you a clear statement. When I said:

Quote: Paul C
The reformers like to think that we have no responsiblity to work toward holiness.

I actually had you and moondweller in mind but it could just as easily been John Calvin, Martin Luther or any other Protestant who professes a sola Fide, OSAS sotierology. You see, Sola Fide and OSAS are incompatible with a requirement for personal holiness because requiring personal holiness requires doing the will of God , which by definition means good works. Therefore, Once you require holiness from an individual for salvation you require works and sola Fide no longer is applicable. In the same way, if you require personal holiness, you require good works and that can never be a one time event so OSAS is also no longer applicable.

So if you think about it, you either have to admit that you don’t require personal holiness for salvation or else you must abandon both Sola Fide and OSAS. And lets not mince words here, you can’t make the argument that the saved will do good works even if they aren’t required to do so. Because it would just mean that those that don’t do good works, must not be saved and once again you are back to Good works being required for salvation.

Which one is it for you, Howie?

 

[paul_c]

The Royal Law argument.

Again, from Paul, "by the works of Law no flesh will be justified in His sight."

That is because the requirements for justification “by the works of Law” is perfection (Mt 5:48), that is why James says regarding the Royal Law, "for whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of [transgressing] all [the Law]" (Jas 2:8ff).

Stumble once, and perfection vanishes, and it becomes unattainable.

I would wish you well in your works of Law unto salvation, but I’m certain you’ve stumbled in the Royal Law already by not loving the Lord your God perfectly at all times, and by not loving your neighbor perfectly at all times.

maybe, Howie, but then again we have the sacrament of reconciliation to cleanse our sins and then we can start our quest for perfection once more. And if we don’t commit Mortal sin (and many I believe can attain to that) we will get a final cleansing in Purgatory to make us acceptable in Heaven.

 

[sodak]

Baptism is an external symbol of an internal reality, which external symbol is performed subsequent to the fact of the internal, supernatural reality (cf Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:12).

No. Baptism is much more than that.

My church does know about your “apostolic tradition,” and we are critical of some of it.

What church is that? The church of “believers”, according to your profile?

 

[Howie01]

Howie, thank you for continuing to push me on this issue. I do owe you a clear statement. When I said:

I actually had you and moondweller in mind but it could just as easily been John Calvin, Martin Luther or any other Protestant who professes a sola Fide, OSAS sotierology. You see, Sola Fide and OSAS are incompatible with a requirement for personal holiness because requiring personal holiness requires doing the will of God , which by definition means good works. Therefore, Once you require holiness from an individual for salvation you require works and sola Fide no longer is applicable. In the same way, if you require personal holiness, you require good works and that can never be a one time event so OSAS is also no longer applicable.

So if you think about it, you either have to admit that you don’t require personal holiness for salvation or else you must abandon both Sola Fide and OSAS. And lets not mince words here, you can’t make the argument that the saved will do good works even if they aren’t required to do so. Because it would just mean that those that don’t do good works, must not be saved and once again you are back to Good works being required for salvation.

Which one is it for you, Howie?

That’s a cop-out, Paul, admit you can’t support your remark and be done with it.

 

[Howie01]

paul c:

maybe, Howie, but then again we have the sacrament of reconciliation to cleanse our sins and then we can start our quest for perfection once more.

The requirement is to be “perfect as the Father is perfect.”

By your own admission, your perfection falters, His never does. You’ve failed.
paul c:

And if we don’t commit Mortal sin (and many I believe can attain to that) we will get a final cleansing in Purgatory to make us acceptable in Heaven.

Sadly, I’ve no doubt that you believe you can attain mortal-sinlessness.

And after that, what’s a few venial sins in ones lifetime, but a short stint in purgatory.