Someone can lose their salvation?

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Wayne Grudem, in his essay found in the same book, “Perseverance of the Saints” [takes time to download], argues from the wording of the “true proverb” that “the repentance was only an outward cleansing, and did not change their true nature.” I love Wayne Grudem, but his argument is undercut by S. M. Baugh’s reference to 2 Peter 2:20 in his essay on foreknowledge (just mentioned) and, in light of the analysis I’ve provided above, by the fact that Wayne himself says that the false prophets had indeed, “escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” In other words, he sees the hypothetical argument as having come to pass in these false prophets. And I hope that I have already provided enough evidence to show that if the hypothesis has come to pass, then it has surely come to pass upon former Christians.

What Wayne goes on to say is that this verse indicates that the false prophets merely had cognitive “knowledge of the gospel,” rather than the intimate knowledge of God that comes from being in a loving relationship with Him. But the verse specifically says that they had knowledge of our Lord and Savior, not of the gospel that tells us about Him. And, again, Baugh takes this “knowledge” to be a reference to their knowing God, or rather their being known by God, in a personal relationship. Most importantly, I think that being a beloved son or daughter is Peter’s own understanding of what it means to have knowledge of our Lord and Savior: that we “may become partakers of the divine nature” (cf. 2 Peter 1:3-4). On the other hand, I don’t want to push this distinction too far, because Jesus Himself is the Gospel, and Peter makes reference to the false prophets turning back from “the holy commandment (not Jesus) delivered to them” after having “known the way of righteousness.” This might suggest to some that a personal relationship with Jesus is not what these false prophets have turned back from, but rather they have simply turned from a cognitive awareness of some things about Jesus. But “Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness” and we are called the Way after the Name of Jesus Who is the Way, the Way to the Father, the Way of the Father, and the Way of Righteousness. What is the holy commandment? “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). And so the false prophets did have cognitive knowledge of the Gospel and they knew the way of righteousness. But we cannot necessarily conclude from this that knowing Jesus is not in view and I think the that Peter indicates that it is (cf. again 1:3-4).

Now let’s take a closer look at the wording of the proverb itself. It reads, “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire” (2 Pet 2:22). It says that a dog returns to his vomit. Grudem argues that the wording of the proverb refers only to an outward cleansing. Strangely enough, vomiting is actually an inward cleansing! 🤷 And what does a washed pig signify? Most naturally it would refer to a person who has experienced the “washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,” when we rise and are baptized and we wash away our sins (Titus 3:5; cf. Acts 22:16): “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses” (Eze 36:25). Listen up, pig, “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor 6:11). But even if the pig imagery is not convincing for an inner cleansing by itself, the two proverbs together certainly signify both an inward cleansing (by vomiting) and an outward cleansing (by washing). And so “let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water” (Heb 10:22). More importantly, I would say that the washing that Peter has in mind for his pig is the same washing he mentions at the beginning of his letter when he warns Christians that “whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins” (2 Peter 1:9). A couple points to make here: (1) When we are cleansed of our sin, it is for past sins, and (2) comparing this verse with chapter 2, a person can “forget” that he has been cleansed of his past sins and “turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them” to go back to a life of sin, getting “entangled in them and overcome,” as the lives of the false prophets have shown us: “The sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

This seems to me the most natural reading of 2 Peter, and I personally found it to be very persuasive in convincing me that the Reformed position is flawed in its understanding of the perseverance of the saints.

In conclusion, although they may fall away for a time, the elect will certainly persevere to the end; but not all Christians will persevere to the end.

With the love of Christ,
Pete
 
I believe not! please go to this link for explanation why not.

gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
Okay. I know this is going to seem uncharitable, but here I go.

What kind of post is this? I thought that this was Catholic Answers Forum - a place where people can go to become knowledgeable about the Catholic faith, T(t)radition(s), dogma, doctrines, and practices.

As a Catholic, when I participate on forums that are mainly evangelical or Protestant in their intent and purpose, I do not post there to attempt to link CAF and other Catholic sites. To do so is the very definition of being uncharitable.

If someone is here to learn about our faith, disagree and discuss it - then I guess that is fine. But since most opposition comes from Sola Scriptura thinking, is it really necessary to post links to sites that can only be meant to draw away Catholics? I am not saying that it would or even has ever done that. I think that most Catholics and inquirers here are either looking for something different alreasy or arepretty grounded in their faith as a foundation. And I applaud our non-Catholic brethren who engage on this site with legitimate discussion and discourse - such discussion only serves to strengthen all of our faithas followers of Jesus Christ and believers in God.

But this kind of “lack of tactic” from out of nowhere, grenade launching post does not seem to advance the topic - of any post.

If you have a retort to something that has been stated - use scripture, personal, experience, or even - heck!, personal interpretation of scripture to support your argument. But blindly pasting a link to an outside source and saying “Hey, if you just look here, you’ll get it all!!”, is really 3rd grade kind of stuff.

However, God loves you and so do I and I am glad you are here and involved in the discourse!🙂
 
Jesus heals, forgives sins, sets captives free and then says “Go and sin no more”. Wonder why, if there’s nothing that can be lost?
 
You are reading scripture with Calvanist glasses. Catholics read it with Apostolic glasses. We each perceive in it according to our mindset. JW’ perceive other things, etc.
That’s a good way of saying it. We all do read scripture with colored glasses.

What we all want, of course, is to read scripture with apostolic colored glasses. So, how do we acquire apostolic glasses? Well, there’s only one way. We inherit them. That is, they are passed down to us, from the apostles themselves.
 
This is a very interesting conversation…

Being a Catholic, I have often been curious about this topic…

Although as a Catholic, I believe that we can reject salvation by rejecting God’s commands, we must also realize that God does not want us to do this…

We must realize, as Catholics, that God loves us and does not want us to lose salvation…I think we all often try to “work out our salvation” by ourselves, without the help of God, and this is a huge mistake…This shows a lack of faith in God, because we constantly worry about our salvation…We must trust Him, that he will guide us through prayer to lead a righteous life…Please everyone remember that we need to turn to God, and should focus more on virtues instead of vices…Trust in God, and he will give you peace. He will lead you in the right path to salvation…It is only through God that salvation comes, not through ourselves…

Paraphrasing the words of Mother Theresa: I rejoice in the Lord because I am a sinner.

To summarize, according to Catholicism, we can lose the state of grace. However, this does not mean we should worry about it. Worry is a selfish act and can draw one further from God. Instead cast worry upon the lord and offer everything in prayer, as scripture says. God will grant you peace and salvation but only through trust in Him!
 
Hi, dmussaw,

I see this is your second post and maybe you are not really familiar with what is expected. You have joing Caholic Answers Forum and the purpose is to discuss various points of view to learn about the Catholic Faith.

Actually, if you decide to post, then you need to do some of the heavy lifting by actually commenting yourself on the topic. Just throwing a link out and running is just not appropriate. I must admit, Smiter said it more charitably then I …but, the basic message is the same: if you want to convert others to SS or OSAS then you probably need to find another spot. If you are interested in how Catholics view these anit-Biblical positions, then just ask and become involved in the discussion.
I believe not! please go to this link for explanation why not.

gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
Now, let me take what appears to me to be the most important paragraph in this link you sent:

“Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared. Even these few, though, make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says occurs to a person when he/she receives Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His mind - two things that Scripture tells us God never does.”

If you have been reading the most recent posts, the verses from 2Peter about a dog returning to its vomit and a pig returning to the mire after having washed should present a graphic picture of backtracking. This is something that the above linked author has not caught onto…and, the way he is going about trying to defend OSAS, he never will get to the point that people really do have a free will.

Peter was very discouraged with these false prophets - and, rightly so. In addition to being in a worse condition then they were - before they were saved - they are now giving bad example to others.

And, don’t forget Paul, who writes to us encouraging words about: continuing to hang on, to continue on with the race and to persevere until the end - IF we are to get the coveted prize (Heaven). These are hardly the words of someone coasting along with the idea of OSAS. It simply is a gospel of men and an actual coruption of God’s Holy Word.

Now, start practicing on your own heavy lifting if you want to post. 😃

God bless
 
Hi, Pete Holter,

Let me complement you on an excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to go into such detail - I really benefitted from reading your post. 🙂

God bless
 
Peter Holter:
In his essay, “The Meaning of Foreknowledge,” found in Still Sovereign, Reformed theologian S. M. Baugh discusses the teaching about knowing God and of being known by Him in Galatians 4:8-9. At the end of the relevant paragraph he writes, “Such knowledge of God, or rather His knowing us, means being committed to Him, which brings with it certain obligations and dangers.” At the end of this sentence he goes on to refer the reader to 2 Peter 2:20 in order to make his point! “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first” (2 Peter 2:20). And so, if we have established that the hypothetical argument is a realized hypothesis, then according to S. M. Baugh, we may also say of the false prophets that they had at one time been in a loving relationship with God their father, having been known by Him.
I’m certain Baugh is a Reformed theologian—a Calvinist—as such, he believes in eternal security, one form of you which you call “OSAS.” 🤷
 
In conclusion, although they may fall away for a time, the elect will certainly persevere to the end; but not all Christians will persevere to the end.

With the love of Christ,
Pete
Great posts Pete! I am going to put them in my saved treasures file. 👍
 
I believe not! please go to this link for explanation why not.

gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
I would like to respond to a small part of this website:

No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude 24-25, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

Many evangelicals confuse God’s love with salvation. Of course He does offer us salvation because of His love, but He so loved the world that he gave up His only son, and we know that the whole world is not saved.

Second, nothing prevents the Christian from JUMPING out of the hand of the almighty, or biting the hand that feeds him.

Third, the fact that we willfully cut ourselves off from grace has nothing to do with God’s ability and willingness to keep us from falling. We fall because we choose, in obstinate rebellion, to obey the commandments of God.

The nature of sin has not changed. Sin separates people from God, before and after the cross.

It is possible for people to reject God’s purpose for themselves. :eek:
 
But since most opposition comes from Sola Scriptura thinking, is it really necessary to post links to sites that can only be meant to draw away Catholics?
I believe they think that it is necessary. As the OP has said, he is here to tell us the Truth, and that only by coming into the knowledge of the Truth can we be saved.

Non believes that God has preserved a “remnant” in the Catholic Church who will be saved. They need to be reached with the gospel, though.
Code:
And I applaud our non-Catholic brethren who engage on this site with legitimate discussion and discourse - such discussion only serves to strengthen all of our faithas followers of Jesus Christ and believers in God.
The OP believes that we serve another god.
Code:
If you have a retort to something that has been stated - use scripture, personal, experience, or even - heck!, personal interpretation of scripture to support your argument.  But blindly pasting a link to an outside source and saying "Hey, if you just look here, you'll get it all!!", is really 3rd grade kind of stuff.
I would venture that a third grade understanding is better than none at all.

This is about the level of maturity that OSAS can address. This is why Paul refers to it as lacking in maturity.
 
No, The only way anyone can lose their salvation is if they did not belong to Jesus in the first place. Shalom, Thomasine
 
So, given that St. Paul admitted that his salvation was not assured - that he had to continue with the race until the end or else he himself would become a castaway - (1Cor 9:27) - what are we to do?
To get a fuller understanding of what St. Paul means in the verse 1 Cor 9:27 see 2 Cor 13:4-7.

Be assured St. Paul knew his salvation was secure. “For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom 8:38-39.

Be Blessed-Corey
 
To get a fuller understanding of what St. Paul means in the verse 1 Cor 9:27 see 2 Cor 13:4-7.

Be assured St. Paul knew his salvation was secure. “For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom 8:38-39.

Be Blessed-Corey
That’s correct. Only we, through free will and sin, can separate ourselves from God. 👍
 
Yes. Salvation is a journey a process so to speak. The Bible has numerous texts like : Matt;7;18,21,12;30-32,22;14, Lk.12;42-46 etc. Salvation is NOT quranteed. It is to be HOPED for…Manny Gonzales
 
No, The only way anyone can lose their salvation is if they did not belong to Jesus in the first place. Shalom, Thomasine
How could anyone have any salvation to lose, if they never belonged to Jesus?

How is it that people cannot see these simple logic errors?
 
To get a fuller understanding of what St. Paul means in the verse 1 Cor 9:27 see 2 Cor 13:4-7.

Be assured St. Paul knew his salvation was secure. “For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom 8:38-39.

Be Blessed-Corey
You have confused God’s Love with Salvation. God loves people that walk right through the gates of hell.
 
There are many quotes from scripture that speak of losing your salvation. Heb 10:26-28 says “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.” And v.29 takes it a step further, 'How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?" Shall I go on?
Thank you. These scriptural quotes are arms… those that insist on ASSURED SALVATION…Once saved, ALWAYS saved! Jesus Christ, in the shedding of His last drop of blood, made salvation AVAILABLE to all of us. We are REDEEMED by His blood because in the shedding of His blood, he OPENED the gates of heaven for ALL. We are the ones who have to make the CHOICE to enter those gates, to accept the GIFT of REDEMPTION or to cast it aside.
 
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