Someone can lose their salvation?

[dmussaw]

This post was taken from the Purgatory thread where it was getting off topic.

Once a person is saved are they always saved? When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact. (a) Romans 8:30 declares, “And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.” This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 “Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.” Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away. (d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be “un-indwelt” and detached from the Body of Christ.

(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will “have eternal life.” If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never “eternal” at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error. (f) For the most conclusive argument, I think Scripture says it best itself, “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, dmussaw,

Brevity is the soul of wit according to Shakespear … and this is going to go into two pages! Sorry. But, you do want content, eh?

Let me compliment you for modifying your previous salutation. I must admit, I missed your other posts, because I see you went from 4 to 11. So, I guess you are getting into the swing of the list, eh? Great!

Now, let’s see what we have here…

Once a person is saved are they always saved? When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact. (a) Romans 8:30 declares, “And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.” This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

Again, let me compliment you for stating the position clearly and offering scriptural evidence to support your position.

But, as you probably guessed, there is really more to this issue. Indeed there are numerous passages that reflect God’s grace in calling us freely. This is a totally unmerited favor for our salvvation. But, the mis-statement in your first paragraph goes like this: “There is noghing that can prevent a believer…heaven.” Actually, there is! You guessed it, our own free will.

The teaching of the CC is that we are free to reject God’s grace. God is All Powerful but has freely chosen to respect man’s exercise of free will - even when it means eternal damnation. God loves each and every one of us - and Jesus Christ carried the burden of sin all the way to the Cross and died that we may live - but, only if we choose this blessing.

(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 “Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.” Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

Paul is correct - no one can, “…bring any charge…” against those who will be with God in Paradise. But that really isn’t the issue is it? God’s chosen (usually) only have absolute certainty when they are judged - prior to that, they have God’s Word that each day they are run the race and persever to the end to win the coveted prize. Those who think they are assured salvation are already on shaky ground.

Let’s look at some other Scriptures to demonstrate this point. Matt 13:3-9 is Christ’s parable about about the Seed (God’s Word) being sowen. Look what happens to the seed that falls in rocky ground - it springs up quickly, but lacks roots. “But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.” The issue before us all comes down to this: The ‘rocky ground’ folks were ‘Saved’ - yet, “When trouble or persecution comes…” it is all over. It looks like they failed to continue with the daily following of Christ.

Continued 1 of 2

 

[tqualey]

Continued 2 of 2

Hi, dmussaw,

(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away. (d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be “un-indwelt” and detached from the Body of Christ.

This is an interesting bit of logic. You know something today is true (admission into heaven) because of a particular verse. Yet, when we go to judgment we will see just what will be. We know for certain that the Devils are in Hell. Do we say that 1/3 of them were predestined for Hell before they were created? You could. But, just knowing something does not make it happen. The Devils freely chose to be like God - and have all eternity to pay for their disobedience. But, these Devils had to act against God first - and that is whey they are punished - not because of predestination.

(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will “have eternal life.” If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never “eternal” at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error. (f) For the most conclusive argument, I think Scripture says it best itself, “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!

Adam and Eve had a perfect human nature - and, they also had free will. They chose disobedience to God’s command - and, failed the test for all of us. If you eliminae free will from your presentation, then we are just puppets - and God randomly chooses some for Heaven and some for Hell. What kind of God is this? None that I know - and, none recognized by the CC. God is All Just and All Merciful and All Knowing - now, how He squares these Divine Qualities with one another is His Business - ours is to believe He Does.

Look at Mark 13:13 "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” The mental image I get from this is that there a lot of folks standing around - all ‘Saved’ and that is just fine. But, suddenly things start going wrong…and people decide that this is not for them - and they leave (just like they did in John 6: 50-70) The end comes and - guess what - only those who persevered to the end stay with Christ and go to Heaven.

Everything is conditional - God loved us before we were - and continues to love us. Our job is to use our free will to love Him… and this is on a daily basis.

God bless

 

[guanophore]

Once a person is saved are they always saved? When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure.

Such a statement is not reflective of Apostolic Teaching, or the Scriptures. It is an invention of the Reformers 1500 years and more after Christ. It constitutes “a different gospel”.

Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact.

If you take verses out of context, you can pretty much get them to “declare” whatever you want.
dmussaw;4766983:

(a) Romans 8:30 declares, “And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.”

Have you ever noticed that these verbs are in the past tense? Of course those already in heaven are OSAS!

This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven.

No.

Those who have been glorified are those already in heaven. We have not yet been, so long as we are on this earth.

There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

Faulty reasoning based upon faulty premises.

(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 “Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.” Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

Yes, but no way of knowing if any certain person is one of the elect.

(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5).

Another postulation that cannot be reconciled with scripture.

For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated.

Which would indicate he was never a Christian, and was never saved to begin with…

The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away.

It would be erroneous to think that Catholism teaches thus. Scripture is clear that their last state is worse than the first.

(d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be “un-indwelt” and detached from the Body of Christ.

Yes, which is what sin does. Sin separates us from God, and drives the Spirit from our souls.

(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will “have eternal life.” If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never “eternal” at all.

This is just a bald faced lie. A person who denounces faith cannot change the immutable life of God. Eternal life does not change because people refuse it.

Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

Definitely your understanding of them is!

(f) For the most conclusive argument, I think Scripture says it best itself, “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!

This is a very common error. Many confuse God’s love for us with eternal life. He so loved the world that He gave up His son. However, we know that the whole world does not get saved.
being loved by God does not equate to partaking of eternal life.

 

[dmussaw]

It is all taught in scripture and I gave you the evidence of that by providing book…chapter…and verse and it is not my own interpentation… it is the truth of the holy spirit as provided
to me with faith in christ Jesus for there is no other gate, path, rock, conerstone, key, mediator, door other than christ Jesus.

God loves you…God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, dmussaw,

Now, really… Do you think that you have done all you can here? This is a disappointing response, and I am being serious about this.

It is all taught in scripture and I gave you the evidence of that by providing book…chapter…and verse and it is not my own interpentation…

Merely quoting Scripture proves nothing. As you will recall, the Devil can do that quite well.

I fully realize that what you have said is not your own interpretation - it was a deadly interpretation in the 16th Century when it first came out. But, the authorship of the interpretation is not my focus.

You initially began with this four paragraph statement of why you believe OSAS is the valid response that Christians make to the call of Christ for each of us to be holy. It took me two sheets - and Guanophore one - to point out the errors of what you had said. You need to think about our responses and craft a meaingful reply to each objection. Now, compare that standard to what you actually presented. It fell short of the goal. But, the real message here is to tell you what you need to do so that your next response is not deficient.

Your last post was simply to dismiss our response as not material and claim these statements of yours are not your interpretations - and, that was that - end of response. If you want to post, it means you want to dialogue - not just merely set down your positions and then ignore everything else that does not agree.

For example, I gave you two Scripture sections (Matthew and Mark) which clearly identify that some people who once professed faith in Christ - leave the scene and abandon Christ. St. Paul tells us to continue running, and hold on to the message, and persevering to the end - lest we become castaways. (This was something he personally feared - and that should tell you that he was not an advocate of OSAS.)

I really have been impressed with the changes you have made in the quality of your posts. But, honestly, there is much more work to be done here. Recall, earlier I spoke about ‘heavy lifting’ - this is the challenge for honest dialogue. Do some research, think about what you read and pray to the Holy Spirit to open your heart and mind to the Word of God. Your skimming across the top is not in anyone’s best interest.

Now, give it another try because I am looking forward to what you have to say.

God bless

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

Such a statement is not reflective of Apostolic Teaching, or the Scriptures. It is an invention of the Reformers 1500 years and more after Christ.

Not so; Jesus clearly states that no one has the ability to believe apart from the Father giving him the ability to believe, and those to whom the Father gives the ability to believe, He also gives to the Son, and the Father has charged the Son with the responsibility to resurrect to life those He’s given to the Son (Jn 6:36-44).

guanophore:

If you take verses out of context, you can pretty much get them to “declare” whatever you want.

As a Catholic, you would know.

guanophore:

Have you ever noticed that these verbs are in the past tense?

They’re past tense because they occurred in the past; in fact, they occurred in eternity past:**Ephesians 1:3-6

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us…as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world…He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself…**Sounds like “apostolic teaching” to me; in fact, Catholics must believe, de fide that God has predestined some to eternal life.

guanophore:

Those who have been glorified are those already in heaven. We have not yet been, so long as we are on this earth.

In the mind, and in the plan of God, all of those who have been, or who will be glorified, were so glorified in eternity past.

That’s Paul’s “apostolic teaching” in Romans 8 (cf Eph 1:3ff).

guanophore:

Yes, but no way of knowing if any certain person is one of the elect.

The apostolic message is that one can know. That’s why “Gospel” means "good news."

guanophore:

This is a very common error. Many confuse God’s love for us with eternal life. He so loved the world that He gave up His son. However, we know that the whole world does not get saved. being loved by God does not equate to partaking of eternal life.

** Ephesians 1:4-5

…In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself…**Apostolic teaching disagrees with you.

 

[Yahuwehsaves]

Let me know if I am misreading the Catechism. I googled the below quickly as one example. But I was always taught that Jesus died for everyone, even those that don’t know him. I didn’t google the Catechim, though.

The Credo of the People of God
Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on June 30, 1968

newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06cr.htm

*We believe that in Adam all have sinned, which means that the original offense committed by him caused human nature, common to all men, to fall to a state in which it bears the consequences of that offense, and which is not the state in which it was at first in our first parents–established as they were in holiness and justice, and in which man knew neither evil nor death. It is human nature so fallen stripped of the grace that clothed it, injured in its own natural powers and subjected to the dominion of death, that is transmitted to all men, and it is in this sense that every man is born in sin. We therefore hold, with the Council of Trent, that original sin, is transmitted with human nature, “not by imitation, but by propagation” and that it is thus “proper to everyone.”[21]

We believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ, by the sacrifice of the cross redeemed us from original sin and all the personal sins committed by each one of us, so that, in accordance with the word of the apostle, “where sin abounded grace did more abound.”*
the Lord Jesus forms His Church by means of the sacraments emanating from His plenitude.[25] By these she makes her members participants in the Mystery of the Death and Resurrection of Christ, in the grace of the Holy Spirit who gives her life and movement
Recognizing also the existence, **outside the organism of the Church of Christ of numerous elements of truth and sanctification **which belong to her as her own and tend to Catholic unity,[31] and believing in the action of the Holy Spirit who stirs up in the heart of the disciples of Christ love of this unity,[32] we entertain the hope that the Christians who are not yet in the full communion of the one only Church will one day be reunited in one flock with one only shepherd.

We believe that the Church is necessary for salvation, because Christ, who is the sole mediator and way of salvation, renders Himself present for us in His body which is the Church.[33**] But the divine design of salvation embraces all men, and those who without fault on their part do not know the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but seek God sincerely, and under the influence of grace endeavor to do His will as recognized through the promptings of their conscience, they, in a number known only to God, can obtain salvation.

I know you probably wont understand this but, all CATHOLICS are not going to Heaven. Go back and read the Scriptures carefully. Yahushua died for HIS OWN. He is taking HIS OWN out of every tongue, every nation, every church. Understand this before it is too late. Shalom, Thomasine

 

[Yahuwehsaves]

I know you probably wont understand this but, all CATHOLICS are not going to Heaven. Go back and read the Scriptures carefully. Yahushua died for HIS OWN. He is taking HIS OWN out of every tongue, every nation, every church. Understand this before it is too late. Shalom, Thomasine

I didn’t say to read catechism, I said read Scripture. The Scriptures are the only place you will find the truth. Shalom, Thomasine

 

[ncgolf]

I know you probably wont understand this but, all CATHOLICS are not going to Heaven. Go back and read the Scriptures carefully. Yahushua died for HIS OWN. He is taking HIS OWN out of every tongue, every nation, every church. Understand this before it is too late. Shalom, Thomasine

Why would anyone understand this pointless drivel.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, sandusky,

This is a truthful statement…and, it goes far. The problem with the OSAS approach is that it ends with statements like this and simply ignores those that prove it to be insufficient and just does not go far enough.

The apostolic message is that one can know. That’s why “Gospel” means "good news."
** Ephesians 1:4-5

…In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself…**Apostolic teaching disagrees with you.

I think you have come up short on understand what Guanophore was telling you. It is beyond me how any Protestant can talk about Apostolic Tradition when so many left the CC - the Church Christ founded on Peter as leader of the Apostles.

The Grace of God, throught Our Lord Jesus Christ is sufficient for our individual salvation - IF AND ONLY IF we do our part and cooperate with that Grace and persevere to the end. The variable is not God’s Promise of Heaven - but, rather how we freely choose to cooperate (or, not cooperate as the case may be) with His Grace.

In the Parable of the Sower (Matt 13:3-23, Mk 4:2-20, and Lk 8:4-15) one of the few parables that appear in all three Synoptic Gospels we see that seed has fallen on rocky ground - and, they spriing up - but lack sufficient roots. Now, I can almost see these new Believers in Jesus dancing and singing for joy… but, then persecution happens - and these guys crumble.

The easy statement is: “They were never saved to begin with.”

And, my response is: So What?!

The only time you will find out for sure is when Christ is welcoming you into Heaven. Prior to that - like St. Paul - you are to work out your salvation in fear and trembling. All this talk about OSAS is a destructive distraction - and one created as another gospel by the Protestants. Don’t believe me? Well, then, just why do you think not all of the seed sowen on rocky ground grew into a harvestable crop? Christ is giving a very clear warning to those who embrace the fantasy of OSAS.

For example St. Paul is constantly stressing that he must continue on in this race and not give up, he must continue to hold on, he must persevere until the end - lest he become a castaway! There is NO second place in this race - we either cross the ‘finish line’ as God’s Friend or His enemy. Either way, God will still love us - but, in the former case, He will love us in Heaven, and in the latter case, He will love us in Hell as he loves all of His creation.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Yahuwehsaves,

So, this is your version of SS?

I didn’t say to read catechism, I said read Scripture. The Scriptures are the only place you will find the truth. Shalom, Thomasine

Let me ask you, IF in fact Yahuweh does save, why are you not in the Chruch that has Yahuweh (Jesus Christ) as its Corner Stone and was built on Peter - the Rock - as its foundation? (That would be the Catholic Church )

God bless

 

[sandusky]

tqualey:

Hi, sandusky,

This is a truthful statement…and, it goes far. The problem with the OSAS approach is that it ends with statements like this and simply ignores those that prove it to be insufficient and just does not go far enough.

I’ve yet to hear or read anyone or anything, from a Catholic or otherwise, that can dissuade me from faith in God’s promise to persevere His elect.

tqualey:

The Grace of God, throught Our Lord Jesus Christ is sufficient for our individual salvation - IF AND ONLY IF we do our part and cooperate with that Grace and persevere to the end. The variable is not God’s Promise of Heaven - but, rather how we freely choose to cooperate (or, not cooperate as the case may be) with His Grace.

Grace is either sufficient for salvation, in and of itself (which is the scriptural position), or it’s not, and it’s morphed into something which must be cooperated with for salvation (which seems to be your position).

Now I will agree that cooperation with the Spirit is essential to sanctification; however, salvation is the purview of the Father (cf Rom 8:29-30; Eph 1:3ff).

tqualey:

In the Parable of the Sower (Matt 13:3-23, Mk 4:2-20, and Lk 8:4-15) one of the few parables that appear in all three Synoptic Gospels we see that seed has fallen on rocky ground - and, they spriing up - but lack sufficient roots. Now, I can almost see these new Believers in Jesus dancing and singing for joy… but, then persecution happens - and these guys crumble.

The easy statement is: “They were never saved to begin with.”

And, my response is: So What?!

I’ll see your “so what!” And raise you a “so what!”

tqualey:

Well, then, just why do you think not all of the seed sowen on rocky ground grew into a harvestable crop?

Because, in Christ’s words, they weren’t “good soil,” and they did not ”hear the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”

They weren’t “good soil” (re: a good and prepared heart), and they didn’t hear the message honestly (they believed that they must earn salvation by cooperation, whatever that means, and so on). Do you understand?

tqualey:

For example St. Paul is constantly stressing that he must continue on in this race and not give up, he must continue to hold on, he must persevere until the end - lest he become a castaway!

I think you misunderstand Paul; if ever there was one who understood salvation, and that the Lord Jesus doesn’t just make salvation a possibility for those who cooperate for their salvation, but that He truly saves, all by Himself, it’s Paul.

 

[mackbrislawn]

I wonder what percentage of those who actually believe the grim doctrine of predestination consider themselves to be among the damned.

 

[sandusky]

I wonder what percentage of those who actually believe the grim doctrine of predestination consider themselves to be among the damned.

As a Catholic, you’re required to believe in predestination de fide: GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide), so you tell me?

Do you consider yourself to be among the damned? :ehh:

 

[mackbrislawn]

As a Catholic, you’re required to believe in predestination de fide: GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide), so you tell me?

Do you consider yourself to be among the damned? :ehh:

The quote above is an attempt to divert the question–an evasion. Because in this context what Catholics are required to believe is beside the point. (At any rate, the CC teaching of predestination isn’t the same. In this case, the identical word is being used for doctrines that do not coincide.)

However, in answer, not yet. How about you? I would imagine the great majority of those who profess the doctrine think of themselves as among the elect.

 

[sandusky]

mackbrislawn:

The quote above is an attempt to divert the question–an evasion.

You’re projecting your tactics.

(At any rate, the CC teaching of predestination isn’t the same. In this case, the identical word is being used for doctrines that do not coincide.)

The Catholic is version is probably the better, more correct version too, right?

mackbrislawn:

However, in answer, not yet. How about you?

Yes, and your answer, “yet,” makes no sense, what with the biblical statements concerning the timing of predestination stated as having been determined in eternity “past.”

 

[mackbrislawn]

You’re projecting your tactics.

The Catholic is version is probably the better, more correct version too, right?

Yes, and your answer, “yet,” makes no sense, what with the biblical statements concerning the timing of predestination stated as having been determined in eternity “past.”

“Your tactics.” Another diversion. I’m sticking to the subject. But the diversions continue…

The Catholic version is better? I don’t know. What does that have to do with it?

Not yet makes a lot of sense–I haven’t formed an opinion according to predestination as you think of it. You are framing your question assuming predestination as you view it, but not necessarily as I view it. How I view it, of course, is not the debate.

For the answer to my original question, the percentage is 0% so far.

 

[sandusky]

“Your tactics.” Another diversion. I’m sticking to the subject. But the diversions continue…

I answered your question, how’s that a diversion? (Me thinks thou projects too much.)

mackbrislawn:

The Catholic version is better? I don’t know. What does that have to do with it?

ISTM, you’re being evasive…are you?

mackbrislawn:

Not yet makes a lot of sense–I haven’t formed an opinion according to predestination as you think of it.

Please, tell me how I was thinking of it when I made my statement, and be specific concerning my unspoken thoughts.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Man alive sandusky, could you just answer the mans question

Have you ever met (or heard of) someone who believed in predestination (by this I mean double predestination) and did not consider themselves among the elect?

I do not see how this in anyway poses a problem with predestination but I find it interesting, so if you wouldn’t mind answering.

God bless