Someone can lose their salvation?

[Seeking12]

This is not a problem for Catholics because we recognize baptism as a sacramental gift of God. He is not bound by the sacraments, and He can save anyone, any way He wants. He commanded that we be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, so we obey Him.

I guess you will have to take that up with the Apostles and their disciples, since they seem to have misunderstood Jesus, and Jesus was apparently to weak or disinterested to correct them on the matter.

This is your opinion, to which of course you are entitled. It is not consistent with Apostolic Teaching.

We see it differently.
This is part of Reformed tradition. Catholics must reject it as part of a “different gospel” because it is significantly contrary from what we have received from the Apostles.

Which brings your reader to the question, why are you here on CAF? You appear to be content in your different gospel.

I do not know what to say to you because nothing I say will be in a charitable spirit. I’m not putting your faith down and I’m not here to put others down for their faith. How will you set a good example of your faith, when all you seem to do is put someone’s faith that doesn’t necessarily agree with your standard? How can any dialogue take place?

 

[Seeking12]

Seeker, I am sorry for calling you delusional. That was wrong of me and it clearly detracted from what I was trying to tell you. I will continue to try to be charitable on all future posts. …

Thank you very much; I really appreciate that.

 

[Seeking12]

Yes. It is part of the Apostolic Teaching. It appears in scripture because that is what they taught.

Have you ever considered that you misunderstood what is written?
I make mistakes like everyone.
Eph 5:25-27
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having **cleansed her by the washing of water **with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
What did the washing in this passage? Water or the Word?
This is a reference to water baptism:
Titus 3:5-8
…but in virtue of his own mercy, by the **washing of regeneration **and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
I must be blind; I don’t see water baptism here.
Acts 22:15-16
16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
*Acts 8:37 "As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”] Why did that profession come before Baptism? What saved Him; the profession or the baptism of water?

The Apostles never separated the baptism of the HS from the water, from the time that Jesus entered the baptismal waters, and joined them.
1 Corinthians 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.” -What do you believe Paul meant be this statement? Do you think it was a coincidence that Jesus never baptized anyone?

Yes. I understand. It is no fault of your own you were taught by persons separated from the Apostolic faith. I here that buzz prase quite a lot here; I find it interesting.

You have been wrongly taught about the canon also, but that is outside the scope of this thread.

 

[Seeking12]

Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.”

Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. loutron, the word used here for “washing”, generally refers to** a ritual washing with water**.

Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them in reference to baptism.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ “for the forgiveness of sin”, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This suggests something more than a mere empty symbol is taking place.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic, he actually gives us a clean slate.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by **the washing of regeneration **and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.”

Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah’s ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ So this verse demonstrates that baptism is is not merely symbolic.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. The Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

I don’t know, sounds like there’re plently of verses which support the Catholic view…

**
God is bound by His truth; therefore if He is not bound by the sacraments, then they must not be true or you are possibly mistaken in your analysis; I don’t know.

I really cannot respond to all the passages you cited because I see something much different than you do, but if you want to kist a few at a time; I will address them**.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Seeking12,

Hold on just a moment. It may be good to get oriented first before moving forward.

I do not know what to say to you because nothing I say will be in a charitable spirit. I’m not putting your faith down and I’m not here to put others down for their faith. How will you set a good example of your faith, when all you seem to do is put someone’s faith that doesn’t necessarily agree with your standard? How can any dialogue take place?

In reading your multiple posts on this Catholic list, there has been a real thrust to state clearly what yoiu believe and what you think the CC teaches.

While you have made clear what you believe, you have been less than focused on providing any reference from the CC about what it teaches - that actually conforms to what you say it is teaching. In reality, the statements provided in your posts have been simply accusations without any basis in fact. This is not the way to establish dialogue. While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, you are not entitled to make error ladend statements about what the CC teaches and not expect to be challenged on this.

Lamenting that others - especially Catholics - are not necessarily sympathetic with this rather causual form of criticism and that there is this preceived loss of charity and a concern that Catholics may not be presenting their faith properly is just a little much, in my opinion.

Personally, I really do think you need to review what the CC teaches if you are going to take the time to criticize it. Once that is accomplished, you are invited to see what the actual teachings of the CC are by going to these two links I have provided for your convenience. This link which contains the entire Cathechism of the Catholic Church in English: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Here is an example:
166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

This next link will give you teachings from the CC with a scriptural basis: catholicapologetics.org/ap020800.htm But, do not forget, it was the CC that gave you the Bible that you are trying to use to bash the teaching of the CC with.

For example:
**The Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works. **

James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Heb 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.
James 2:20-22
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
1 Cor 3:8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.
Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.

**The Bible indicates that it is wrong to disturb the balance of works expressing a life of faith. Man is not saved by faith alone. **

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

**Nor is man saved by works alone. **

Rom 9:31-32
Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law … because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works.
Gal 3:11
And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for “the one who is righteous by faith will live.”

 

[Matariel]

God is bound by His truth; therefore if He is not bound by the sacraments…

Just because there are circumstances that are an exception to a norm, doesn’t negate the fact that a norm exists… so I have to say your logic is flawed here.

I really cannot respond to all the passages you cited because I see something much different than you do, but if you want to kist a few at a time; I will address them.

I can’t see how you can’t see the plainness of the words which clearly state that Baptism is not an empty symbol…

Besides, it’s the Apostolic understanding, the Early Church Fathers and Christians, and also St. Peter clearly states in Acts that Baptism is for “the remission of sins”… so…

Well, we’d better start a new thread then, because this is slightly off-topic. we’ll come to the thread you start if you give us a link.

 

[paul_c]

**
God is bound by His truth; therefore if He is not bound by the sacraments, then they must not be true or you are possibly mistaken in your analysis; I don’t know.

I really cannot respond to all the passages you cited because I see something much different than you do, but if you want to kist a few at a time; I will address them**.

I don’t see you as seeking the truth here. We have demonstrated through scripture that God developed these sacraments as a way to distribute his graces. You have divorced yourself from these sacraments by your religious choices, therefore you make arguments to justify your positions. God is not bounded by anything. However, he told us through the apostles (which is documented throughout scripture) that he would distribute graces through the sacraments. Shouldn’t we therefore, do what he tells us? Or should we do what you propose, which is to ignore or attempt to explain away what he tells us through the apostles?

 

[Seeking12]

I don’t see you as seeking the truth here. We have demonstrated through scripture that God developed these sacraments as a way to distribute his graces. You have divorced yourself from these sacraments by your religious choices, therefore you make arguments to justify your positions. God is not bounded by anything. However, he told us through the apostles (which is documented throughout scripture) that he would distribute graces through the sacraments. Shouldn’t we therefore, do what he tells us? Or should we do what you propose, which is to ignore or attempt to explain away what he tells us through the apostles?

I will leave this thread; since you are the second person that has expressed their love for those that don’t agree with their position.

 

[Matariel]

I will leave this thread; since you are the second person that has expressed their love for those that don’t agree with their position.

He wasn’t attacking you… just trying to understand why you aren’t accepting that the Sacraments are an essential part of the Faith, not a last-minute addendum that we don’t really need to practice anyway.

And also you never responded to my post…

 

[tqualey]

Bye Seeking12

I will leave this thread; since you are the second person that has expressed their love for those that don’t agree with their position.

God bless

 

[Ignatius]

I will leave this thread; since you are the second person that has expressed their love for those that don’t agree with their position.

Actually, since no one is actually saved until they stand in the presence of God, you can’t loose your salvation because you will be in heaven then.

 

[paul_c]

Catholicism does teach that one is saved “mostly” by works. Catholicism teaches a probationary “salvation” resulting from a lifetime of works, in the hope of dying in a “state of grace.” In its soteriology it gives a nod to the words grace and faith but adds works to the formula as the solidifying factor and the final basis on which God will judge him worthy for “eternal life” (lot of contradictions here).

Actually, no. it does not teach a probationary salvation resulting from a lifetime of works. Man gets a probationary salvation through Faith and the sacraments. Man stays in the state of grace through works. Works are sanctifying, not salvanic. Notice it says throughout scripture of being SAVED through faith, but you are Rewarded with heaven through works. And by the way, you can be saved by faith as often as you go crawling back to the lord and ask forgiveness through the sacrament of reconciliation. But then you must live out that reconciliation through works, on which you will be judged.

If you talk to most Catholics on the street, not those that are truly interested in the inner most theological details of sotierology , what they will understand is that you need
a) to be baptized and b) to lead a good and holy life.and c) go to confession when you sin to be cleansed. They will probably skip right over the need to have faith, because that is assumed for any Catholic.

According to Catholicism faith and grace find their substance in works; without works faith and grace have no content, no essence, no meaning

.
Yes, you need to demonstrate your faith with works.

But in Biblical reality “faith” and “grace” lose their meaning and significance when “works” are an added requirement FOR salvation (see my above post: # 669).

How do faith and grace lose their meaning when works are added for salvation? Faith and grace put you in a position to be saved. Works are part of the sanctifying process. You need both to be saved. Can’t you understand this? Works without an underpinning of grace and faith are meaningless because if you don’t do them for the Glory of God, they can not be sanctifying. Just as faith without actions is just empty words.

They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who BELIEVES IN HIM will not be disappointed. Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for {their} (national Israel’s) salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness (i.e., “the righteousness which is by FAITH”) and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves (i.e., through faith) to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of law (i.e., works) for righteousness to everyone who believes.[/indent]Salvation IS a works vs. faith issue. It was from the beginning of the Apostolic age and continues to this very day; indeed this very message. But it was taught by the Apostles and passed down and preserved for us in Holy Writ that salvation is based on divine GRACE alone, as Paul reasons:"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Biblical soteriology doesn’t merely nod at the WORDS “grace” and “faith,” but explicitly teaches salvation “BY grace THROUGH faith…not as a result of works” - period. Works, according to Scripture, are reserved only for those who “have been saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works.”

This is because works are sanctifying only if they are being done for the glory of god. Many people do good works to gain praise from their fellow man. Those will have already garnered thier reward. Works that sanctify you are only done for the love of God and of course, you can’t love God without faith and grace.

Paul presents himself as the perfect example of this wondrous grace salvation wrought through the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ through faith:1 Tim 1:15-16 “It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners (not “saints,” via works), among whom I am foremost {of all.} Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life” (cf. Jn. 3:14-18).

Dont forget the rest of John’s passage:3: 19-22)

And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God

Notice that now he is talking about works being the differentiator.

 

[paul_c]

I will leave this thread; since you are the second person that has expressed their love for those that don’t agree with their position.

Frankly, it is love. We are trying to lead you to the right path. Should we instead sit idle and say nothing when you are on the wrong path and potentially leading other there as well, to their detriment. No. We are Catholic Apologists explaining our position. Don’t expect us to agree with you when you deviate from Catholic teaching.

 

[moondweller]

Hi, Moondweller,

Not so fast - you are back to making statements without the slightest effort at giving a reference from any dogmatic pronoucement from the Catholic Church. You really have to play this straight if you are going to play it at all.

Does the RCC come right out and specifically state in clear language that its devotees are saved by works? Of course not. But, when the RCC negates justification by faith alone, it necessarily implies that you must do something for justification, for if it is not by faith alone, then it must be by faith and something other than faith. And this is made obviously true on this thread because ALL of you advocate for the necessity of works for your own future salvation.

Though the RCC won’t come right out and say it, you very well know what it implies. But here are a couple of its official teachings:2027 “No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.”

“We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ” (CCC, par. 1821).But Paul clearly teaches:Rom 4:2-5 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (his belief/faith) was credited to him (by God) as righteousness. Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"Never his works. Such a notion is foreign to Scripture. But it is one’s FAITH that is credited by God as righteousness. Always one’s FAITH; the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ being faith’s object (Jn. 3:14-15).

Paul was no hypocrite but believed this even for himself: Phil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (works), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"Justification is the imparting of divine righteousness, and that based on faith (in Christ) alone. The Scriptures are extremely clear on this. The only way to avoid it is to disbelieve it. Hence it is no wonder you would advocate works.

 

[paul_c]

Does the RCC come right out and specifically state in clear language that its devotees are saved by works? Of course not. But, when the RCC negates justification by faith alone, it necessarily implies that you must do something for justification, for if it is not by faith alone, then it must be by faith and something other than faith. And this is made obviously true on this thread because ALL of you advocate for the necessity of works for your own future salvation.

Though the RCC won’t come right out and say it, you very well know what it implies. But here are a couple of its official teachings:2027 “No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.”

“We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ” (CCC, par. 1821).But Paul clearly teaches:Rom 4:2-5 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (his belief/faith) was credited to him (by God) as righteousness. Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"Never his works. Such a notion is foreign to Scripture. But it is one’s FAITH that is credited by God as righteousness. Always one’s FAITH; the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ being faith’s object (Jn. 3:14-15).

Paul was no hypocrite but believed this even for himself: Phil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (works), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"Justification is the imparting of divine righteousness, and that based on faith (in Christ) alone. The Scriptures are extremely clear on this. The only way to avoid it is to disbelieve it. Hence it is no wonder you would advocate works
I can show you many quotes from Paul that show that you need to do good works to gain eternal life:

Romans 2: 5-8 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works:

 

[guanophore]

**I do not know what to say to you because nothing I say will be in a charitable spirit. **

Are you aggravated with me because I understand the Bible differently than you?
Seeking12;4826437:

I’m not putting your faith down and I’m not here to put others down for their faith.

This is refreshing.

How will you set a good example of your faith, when all you seem to do is put someone's faith that doesn't necessarily agree with your standard?

I do not expect fro you to be here looking for role models. I am not even sure you are here to get Catholic Answers.

Pointing out that your beliefs do not agree with what the Apostles’ taught is not intended to be derogatory, but informative. As I have said, I assume that you don’t know any better.

It is not “my” standard. I have decided to make the Teaching of Jesus Christ, available through the One Church that He founded, to be my standard.

How can any dialogue take place?

Are you here to dialogue?

If someone disagrees with you, and you feel put down, can you still dialogue?

I make mistakes like everyone.

Then dialogue is possible.

Eph 5:25-27
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

What did the washing in this passage? Water or the Word?

Jesus does the washing. He does it “by washing of water WITH the word”. Not either/ or.

This is a reference to water baptism:

Titus 3:5-8
…but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

I must be blind; I don’t see water baptism here.

Don’t feel too bad. There are a lot of things you don’t see when you read scripture with anti-Catholic glasses on. I know, I did it myself for a long time.

Acts 22:15-16
16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Acts 8:37 "As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 37 [And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”]

Why did that profession come before Baptism?

No one is baptized without a profession of faith.

What saved Him; the profession or the baptism of water?

Neither. We re saved by grace. We access saving grace through faith. The cleansing blood of Christ is applied to us through baptism.

The Apostles never separated the baptism of the HS from the water, from the time that Jesus entered the baptismal waters, and joined them.
1 Corinthians 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.”

-What do you believe Paul meant be this statement?

In the immediate context, he is chastizing the Corinthians for being factious,and he is releived that more of them are not claiming to be “of Paul” because he baptized them. He, like all the Apostles, had all the converts baptized for the forgiveness of sins. If Paul had baptized all the converts, he would not have had enough time to preach, which was his charism. All converts that came to Christ while he was preaching were baptized by those assisting him. In this way he follows the model of Christ, who did not baptize Himself, but had his disciples do the baptisms.

Do you think it was a coincidence that Jesus never baptized anyone?

We don’t know that, since we know that not everything is recorded in scripture. But no, I think He wanted His apostles well trained in this area, and He wanted the people to seek His baptism from them, so He had them do the baptisms.

It is no fault of your own you were taught by persons separated from the Apostolic faith.

I here that buzz prase quite a lot here; I find it interesting.

That we don’t consider you to be at fault, or that you have been separated from the Apostolic faith?

 

[guanophore]

Catholicism does teach that one is saved “mostly” by works.

No, Moon. This is a falsehood that you like to pander, for unfathomable reasons. It would seem to me that you would be pleased to learn that Catholics believe we are justified by grace, through faith. However, you still stubbornly cling to this falsehood in spite of all the evidence that has been given to you to the contrary.

Catholicism teaches a probationary “salvation”

no, Moon. Catholics believe that we are completely, fully, and finally saved at baptism. There is nothing “probationary” about it. Baptism washes us completely of all original and personal sin. We believe that baptism transfers us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. We are acquitted of the charges against us. When a case is acquitted, Moon, it is thrown out.

resulting from a lifetime of works, in the hope of dying in a “state of grace.”

It is true that Catholics believe we should live within the good works that God created for us before the foundation of the word, and that our hope that is in Christ will lead us to remain in a state of Grace. this is how we understand what it is to be “in Christ”.

In its soteriology it gives a nod to the words grace and faith but adds works to the formula as the solidifying factor and the final basis on which God will judge him worthy for “eternal life” (lot of contradictions here).

There are a lot of contradictions here, Moon, you are right. Why do you insert such things? What drives you to this need ot misrepresent Catholic Doctrine in this way? I know you have been corrected on these points dozens of times.

The only “solidifying factor” in salvation is grace. We access saving grace through faith and works. It is grace that saves us. It is the only “basis” or means by which we can be saved. This has always been, and still is, the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Our “worthiness” for eternal life is based upon doing the work of God, which Christ defines as believing in the One whom He has sent. It is only by faith in Him, and the blood He shed on the cross for the remission of sins, that we can be made worthy of heaven.

According to Catholicism faith and grace find their substance in works; without works faith and grace have no content, no essence, no meaning.

You are in the station, but still on the wrong train. It is grace that expresses itself in faith and works. As the Apostle states, the only thing that matters is “faith, working through love”.

Furthermore, I think that we are in agreement that faith without works is dead. Saving faith produces good works. Of course it is empty and meaningless otherwise! It is no better than the devils’ faith.

But in Biblical reality “faith” and “grace” lose their meaning and significance when “works” are an added requirement FOR salvation (see my above post: # 669).

The Apostles never separate faith and works from the grace that produces them.

 

[guanophore]

Rom 11:6 “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

Rom 9:30 - 10:4 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law. Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who BELIEVES IN HIM will not be disappointed. Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for {their} (national Israel’s) salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness (i.e., “the righteousness which is by FAITH”) and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves (i.e., through faith) to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of law (i.e., works) for righteousness to everyone who believes.

It seems pretty clear here that righteousness under the Mosaic law is attained the same way it is under the law of Christ - the obedience of faith.

Salvation IS a works vs. faith issue.

No, I don’t think so Moon. It is really an issue of belief or unbelief. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved. those who do not believe are condemned already, because they do not believe. The only “work” involved is that of faith, or no faith.

Your rendering is a misunderstanding of the Gospel message, which is what Paul was trying to address. Works cannot save anyone - only grace can.

It was from the beginning of the Apostolic age and continues to this very day; indeed this very message.

I agree that the misunderstanding /fantasy of “works salvation” was present as heresy at various times. You also continue to this day to bring it here, and try to blame it on Catholics. However, the Catholic Church triumphed over the heresy of Pelagius centuries ago.

But it was taught by the Apostles and passed down and preserved for us in Holy Writ that salvation is based on divine GRACE alone, as Paul reasons:"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Biblical soteriology doesn’t merely nod at the WORDS “grace” and “faith,” but explicitly teaches salvation “BY grace THROUGH faith…not as a result of works” - period.

It is written there, Moon, because it was written by a Catholic, and he expresses Catholic Doctrine. It is only you that insists that the Catholic Church teaches otherwise.
moondweller;4824443:

Works, according to Scripture, are reserved only for those who "*have been*

saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works."

And the Apostles never separated this obedience of faith working through love from the saving grace that produces it.

Paul presents himself as the perfect example of this wondrous grace salvation wrought through the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ through faith:1 Tim 1:15-16 “It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners (not “saints,” via works), among whom I am foremost {of all.} Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life” (cf. Jn. 3:14-18).

Yes, and he worked harder than them all, didn’t he?

 

[guanophore]

Does the RCC come right out and specifically state in clear language that its devotees are saved by works? Of course not.

It takes a lot of courage for you to admit this, and I am proud of you for doing it. Please disregard my previous demand that you demonstrate where salvation by works is taught by the Church. I knew you could not find it, because it it not Catholic teaching. Now, if you can continue in this brave manner, you will be able to accept that what you have been told about the Catholic faith is not, in fact, what the Catholic Church believes and teaches.

But, when the RCC negates justification by faith alone, it necessarily implies that you must do something for justification, for if it is not by faith alone, then it must be by faith and something other than faith.

you are correct here. Catholics believe that it is God’s grace that justifies us. The Apostles taught that we access this grace through obedient faith.

And this is made obviously true on this thread because ALL of you advocate for the necessity of works for your own future salvation.

The Apostles never separate saving faith from the good works produced by it. The only thing that matters is faith, working through love.

Though the RCC won’t come right out and say it, you very well know what it implies.

It seems to imply something different to you.

But here are a couple of its official teachings:**2027** "No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion."

What does that mean to you, Moon? when you read this does it read “Catholics, work their way into grace so they can be converted”?

Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods."

This is the principle of cooperation with grace. It was rejected by the Reformers. Scripturally it is described as remaining in Him who is able to keep us until That Day.

“We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ” (CCC, par. 1821).

Catholics believe that the nature of sin does not change “this side of the cross”. sin separates people from God. When we are in a state of sin, we cannot accomplish the works that God has created beforehand that we should walk in them.

But Paul clearly teaches:Rom 4:2-5 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (his belief/faith) was credited to him (by God) as righteousness. Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Right. That is why it says “No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion.” It is a free gift of God.Paul teaches this because Paul is Catholic.

Never his works.  Such a notion is foreign to Scripture.  But it is one's FAITH that is credited by God as righteousness.  Always one's FAITH; the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ being faith's object (Jn. 3:14-15).

Indeed! And all such faith will demonstrate itself in works, which is why the Apostle says "show me your faith, and I will show you my works. Saving faith is never separated from the works produced by it.

Paul was no hypocrite but believed this even for himself: [indent]Phil 3:9 "...and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (*works*), **but that which is through faith in Christ**, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"  Justification is the imparting of divine righteousness, and that based on faith (in Christ) alone.

I would posit two caveats. One is that righteousness is infused, not just imparted. The other is that faith is never alone. Faith is how we access the grace that justifies us, and it is always accompanied by hope and love.

 The Scriptures are extremely clear on this.  The only way to avoid it is to disbelieve it.  Hence it is no wonder you would advocate works.

what is a wonder to me is that you seem to be intractibly refusing to accept Catholic Teaching on this.

Scripture is also extremely clear on why one would “advocate works”. It was one of Jesus’ favorite topics!

You yourself would also advocate works. You just place them under the category of sanctification, where your beliefs are rather consistent with the catholic teaching.

 

[guanophore]

**

God is bound by His truth; therefore if He is not bound by the sacraments, then they must not be true or you are possibly mistaken in your analysis; I don’t know.**.

No. The fact that God’s omnipotence is not confined to our humanity does not make our humanity void.

I really cannot respond to all the passages you cited because I see something much different than you do, but if you want to kist a few at a time; I will address them

Take your time! We do this a lot.

I will leave this thread; since you are the second person that has expressed their love for those that don’t agree with their position.

There was nothing personally unloving at all in paul c’s post. He simply made accruate observations. I find it surprising that your need for affection apparently outweighs your desire to know the truth.