Someone says not to judge a transexual or his/her lifestyle

[18Gingasoldier]

(I’m so sorry if this is in the wrong forum, I’m still new when it comes to recognizing different forum categories.)

This friend I have is a non-denomination Christian. She says all people cannot judge a transexual as a person, nor his/her lifestyle, and she quotes Matthew 7:1-5:

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

She also says that as long as that person ain’t hurting anybody else, we can’t stick our noses into his/her business, that it is his/her life, and we can’t tell these people that what they’re doing is wrong. She also says that there are only positive and negative opinions, and there is no “evil” per se. She didn’t exactly say there isn’t evil, but I asked her if “evil” is just an opinion, and she answered with something I wasn’t quite satisfied with.

How can I refute this? Again, she’s not a Catholic, just a non-denomination Christian.

 

[Gorgias]

This friend I have is a non-denomination Christian. She says all people cannot judge a transexual as a person, nor his/her lifestyle

Ask what she means by ‘judge’.

Does she mean that we can’t look at a person and say, “oh, you’re definitely going to hell. there’s no hope for you”…? If so, she’s right.

However, does she mean that we can’t look at a person and recognize their sin and attempt to help them out of it? If so, then she’s disagreeing with Christ’s words in the Matthew 18:

“If your brother sins, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector."

She also says that as long as that person ain’t hurting anybody else

Now there’s an interesting value judgment! The Church would assert that sin offends God and hurts us all.

we can’t tell these people that what they’re doing is wrong.

Again, Matthew 18.

 

[18Gingasoldier]

Ask what she means by ‘judge’.

Does she mean that we can’t look at a person and say, “oh, you’re definitely going to hell. there’s no hope for you”…? If so, she’s right.

However, does she mean that we can’t look at a person and recognize their sin and attempt to help them out of it? If so, then she’s disagreeing with Christ’s words in the Matthew 18:

Now there’s an interesting value judgment! The Church would assert that sin offends God and hurts us all.

Again, Matthew 18.

She means that we can’t judge the transsexual, nor his/her lifestyle, not help him/her to get out of the lifestyle, so yeah, she would be disagreeing with Matthew 18.
The only problem is that, in Spanish (which is her native language and mine too), I’ve found that Matthew 18 says: If your brother sins against YOU…" which would be ironic since the transsexual would be sinning against him/herself, and maybe she’ll point that out. But that’s a problem with the Spanish translation.

 

[inocente]

The only problem is that, in Spanish (which is her native language and mine too), I’ve found that Matthew 18 says: If your brother sins against YOU…" which would be ironic since the transsexual would be sinning against him/herself, and maybe she’ll point that out. But that’s a problem with the Spanish translation.

Hola. Translations differ because the original Greek sources differ. The bible at vatican.va has “If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone”.

She also says that as long as that person ain’t hurting anybody else, we can’t stick our noses into his/her business, that it is his/her life, and we can’t tell these people that what they’re doing is wrong.

Good for her.

If someone is not a Catholic, then surely whether or not you approve is your problem, not theirs. Just as you, as a citizen, have no moral obligation to make sure other religions don’t disapprove of your lifestyle.

But even where a transgender person is a Catholic, they may suffer from gender identity disorder, and unless you are a psychiatrist who has evaluated the person and ruled out a medical condition, you surely have no moral basis to call it a lifestyle or a sin.

Most people are Catholic here in Spain, and just last week a campaign against transexuals was banned (Spanish report here, English report here). As CCC 1930 says “Respect for the human person entails respect for the rights that flow from his dignity as a creature” .

 

[Memaw]

Ask what she means by ‘judge’.

Does she mean that we can’t look at a person and say, “oh, you’re definitely going to hell. there’s no hope for you”…? If so, she’s right.

However, does she mean that we can’t look at a person and recognize their sin and attempt to help them out of it? If so, then she’s disagreeing with Christ’s words in the Matthew 18:

Now there’s an interesting value judgment! The Church would assert that sin offends God and hurts us all.

Again, Matthew 18.

AMEN!!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[ChurchSoldier]

She means that we can’t judge the transsexual, nor his/her lifestyle, not help him/her to get out of the lifestyle, so yeah, she would be disagreeing with Matthew 18.
The only problem is that, in Spanish (which is her native language and mine too), I’ve found that Matthew 18 says: If your brother sins against YOU…" which would be ironic since the transsexual would be sinning against him/herself, and maybe she’ll point that out. But that’s a problem with the Spanish translation.

Genesis 3 is a good place to start.
"2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

This is the passage in which we get the concept of original sin. The words “knowing good and evil” are interpreted as “being able to determine what is good and evil”, putting ourselves and our interpretation above that which God has revealed to us.

As well, I want to affirm you for engaging in your faith. Participating in conversations about the difficult questions of morality and life is a good way to deepen your understanding and strengthen your beliefs.

 

[rcwitness]

Judging a person and judging a matter of faith should not be confused. The Church is able to judge matters of the faith. If a person is not satisfied with one members judgment, he can appeal to several, and go all the way to Rome’s verdict (if one exists).

If that person rejects the judgment of the Church, then that person is guilty of rejecting Christ’s judgment.

1 Cor. 5
But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”

1 Cor. 6
When one of you has a grievance against a brother, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!

 

[18Gingasoldier]

Judging a person and judging a matter of faith should not be confused. The Church is able to judge matters of the faith. If a person is not satisfied with one members judgment, he can appeal to several, and go all the way to Rome’s verdict (if one exists).

If that person rejects the judgment of the Church, then that person is guilty of rejecting Christ’s judgment.

1 Cor. 5
But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”

1 Cor. 6
When one of you has a grievance against a brother, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!

She may or may not listen to the Church herself, because she’s not a Catholic. Instead, this friend is a non-denominational Christian, apparently.

 

[rcwitness]

She may or may not listen to the Church herself, because she’s not a Catholic. Instead, this friend is a non-denominational Christian, apparently.

Then her Church does not follow Scripture.

Edit: I should not be so general with that statement. Maybe her church does condemn transexualism? Maybe she is immature and not really closely involved in her own church?

 

[rcwitness]

She may or may not listen to the Church herself, because she’s not a Catholic. Instead, this friend is a non-denominational Christian, apparently.

maybe you can first establish whether her church encourages/accepts transsexual lifestyle or rejects/condemns it?

I’m guessing she listens to sermons and concludes things even her own pastor is not teaching. She probably does not discuss things with her pastor, or church elders.

 

[todoeldiapulpin]

Are the transexual person and your friend the same person?
Indeed, I read in the forums that fraternal correction only applies to fellow catholics (or was it believers? I don’t remember well).
Peace.

 

[rcwitness]

Are the transexual person and your friend the same person?
Indeed, I read in the forums that fraternal correction only applies to fellow catholics (or was it believers? I don’t remember well).
Peace.

Well, we always have an obligation to correct wrong behavior and belief in others. It is the Law of Love! But we don’t always have authority over them. I have very little authority over anyone, save my own family and a relative amount to my CCD children.

No matter, we can still lead others to find truth. Our OP friend can ask the right questions to her friend which will convict them whether they are being honest with themselves and truly allow g Scripture to rule their practice (as I’m certain a non-denominational church professes to do).

Fraternal Correction (Admonishing the Sinner) is not only about exercising authority. It’s about caring for a brother/sister in the faith AND the health of the whole Church in general.

 

[Lucretius]

Ask her to watch Criminal Minds, Crime Watch, or 48 Hour Mystery, and see if she doesn’t mind judging those criminals’ actions and lifestyle…

What she is actually saying* is that, since she sees nothing wrong with transgenderism, they shouldn’t be judged negatively for it. Of course, if you haven’t noticed, this too is a judgement.

See, when we Christians condemn transgenderism, we are, in a sense, merely messagers, proclaiming the judgements and warnings of Christ our Lord. She, on the other hand, is judging transgenderism by her own judgement, and the judgement of the “secular world,” a different lord than the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, in the end, she’s the one who is judging and breaking that commandment, instead of letting Jesus Christ, the rightful and true and wisest Judge, judge, as we (try to) do. She is the one who is following the Prince of this world in opposition to the Lord. Ask her why she’s judging without considering the judgement of Jesus Christ, who affirmed that in the beginning He made them male and female (Matthew, 19:4).

Christi pax.

*Fulton Sheen taught that we shouldn’t just hear what someone says, but why they say it. We should look at the actual words, what the person means by them, and, most importantly, what motivates them to say them. Always look to the heart

 

[Gorgias]

Hola. Translations differ because the original Greek sources differ. The bible at vatican.va has “If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone”.

Correct. Some of the earliest sources say “if your brother sins”, while others say “if your brother sins against you.”

Does sin only affect the sinner, though? Or do we all suffer from the sin of others? “Through one man sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all men” (Rom 5:12) – yep, St Paul sure thinks that the sins of one affect us all!

If someone is not a Catholic, then surely whether or not you approve is your problem, not theirs.

Yeah… right. 'Cause after all, Jesus said, “if you are from this Church, you should help people from your Church out of their sin… but, if you are from that Church, don’t worry about the sins others commit. Your conscience is your problem, not theirs.”

Just as you, as a citizen, have no moral obligation to make sure other religions don’t disapprove of your lifestyle.

Poor logic, there. One’s obligations as a citizen are distinct and different from one’s obligations as a Christian. As a citizen, we must simply “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s”, but as a Christian, we are told to “love one another as I have loved you.” And, how did Jesus love us? Did he look at non-believers and say, “yeah, you do what you want… it doesn’t matter.” :nope:

But even where a transgender person is a Catholic, they may suffer from gender identity disorder, and unless you are a psychiatrist who has evaluated the person and ruled out a medical condition, you surely have no moral basis to call it a lifestyle or a sin.

That’s poor theology, too. It’s a sin all right – the question is whether (due to medical considerations) the person is culpable of the sin. Either way, the person deserves our respect… and our prayers and support. Mind you, that’s support of the person, not of their behavior. Big difference, there.

Most people are Catholic here in Spain, and just last week a campaign against transexuals was banned

Aaaaand… there’s another red herring! You’re conflating “self-identity as Christian” with “proper and virtuous Christian action.” After all, if that were true, we would say that Paul was wrong when he told the Corinthians to reject the actions of the man who was carrying on with his father’s wife – after all, they were Christian … doesn’t that mean their actions were Christian in nature? Moreover, in Revelation, Christ himself points out the difference between those who call themselves Christian and those who act in ways that are in accord with Christianity: “I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. … So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.”

In other words, just because Christians take a certain action, it does not imply that their actions are in accord with Christ.

As CCC 1930 says “Respect for the human person entails respect for the rights that flow from his dignity as a creature” .

Quite right. Yet, one’s “rights” do not include the “right to sin.”

 

[Allegra]

Well, t an extent, she’s right. Anyone who would subject themselves to what an attempt to change genders generally entails either has a pathological need for attention or a legitimate obsession with being something they can never objectively be. In other words, they are mentally ill. We know that mental illness effects the culpability one has for their sins. It may be that many if not all of these individuals aren’t capable of committing a mortal sin because of the mental anguish they are experiencing. If you are going to judge someone, judge the “medical professionals” who gain a great deal of money and fame encouraging the delusions of a sick and desperate person.

 

[drac16]

I don’t think it’s valid to say “he/she is not hurting anyone, so mind your own business”. A transsexual is not engaging in harmless behaviour. They’re engaging in an activity that will destroy them. We should approach a transsexual with love, but also with the truth. In the same way, I would approach a drug addict with love, but would also tell them that this behaviour will ultimately destroy them.

 

[18Gingasoldier]

This friend is not the transsexual victim.
She had posted in her FB that someone was condemning the fact that people say that a trans person (female-to-male) has a baby, and the baby has to call “him” his/her “dad”. However, this “someone” was cursing throughout the post my friend screenshot.

I used the Genesis account to support the view that there IS good and bad. Yet, she answered me in, like, THREE comments :0

The comments were translated by me and are separated in the three I received.
Though I also asked her if she was a Catholic or a Christian (just to confirm) but she hasn’t answered that question yet.

**1st. **“You are reading the Old testament where we were all judged, but Christ in Matthew specifies that if any of us take judgment on our brother we will be thrown into Hell … Do not take the parts that suit you from your Bible … None of us can say “fool” to anyone, only God will judge and point. We do not have the place to be judges.”

I can certainly say she is not aware that ONLY cultural norms were washed away. And by the way, Genesis EXPLICITELY says there IS good and evil, in the most literal interpretation.

**2nd. ** “We are governed right now under the New Testament. From Matthew to Revelation. Everything else was forgotten by Jesus’ sacrifice. You ca not rule by the Old Law because it has already been changed. And it is something that some do not understand.”
Good and evil are not “cultural norms”, which were the things that WERE washed away.

3rd. “Evil and Good will always exist, but only God will judge. We have no right over our neighbor’s life, we are certainly worse off.
If you think about it, all sins are equal before God.
If you lie is equal to a homicide. For God, you are white or black, there is no gray.
No one has the right to point to others for their sins because he is certainly worse than his brother.”
I can’t believe she doesn’t see the point of telling the transsexual that his/her lifestyle is wrong.
I know transsexuals are, for the most part, mentally ill and so they can’t commit a mortal sin.

Then, some other user replied to her publication. He said that we obviously can’t judge a person in itself, but that he was uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuals making their lifestyle a normal thing, he also quoted the Bible “effeminate people will not enter Heaven” and such.
She replied: “That’s in the Old Testament, not in the New one XD. Because it is natural in the animal world, if you talk about the Bible it is a sin to have sex … Just as heterosexuals, it is a sin to go from person to person fcking.*”

(Btw, she literally put the “XD” on her comment.)

If you have any proof/refutals that I could use (she’s a non-denominal Christian, so I better use proof that her Bible has), please divide the refutals for every comment she made after I showed her the Genesis account.

 

[rcwitness]

Though I also asked her if she was a Catholic or a Christian (just to confirm) but she hasn’t answered that question yet.

Not a good question, my friend. A Catholic is a Christian!

 

[rcwitness]

I don’t think you should pursue this debate… it doesn’t sound like sincere discussion, but an angered arguement. Try to leave your peace, and step away.

That’s my opinion.

 

[inocente]

Does sin only affect the sinner, though? Or do we all suffer from the sin of others? “Through one man sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all men” (Rom 5:12) – yep, St Paul sure thinks that the sins of one affect us all!

Not sure it’s legitimate to call another person’s mental disorder a sin for which we all suffer, but I am certain that anyone who thinks suffering is about worrying what others may or may not be doing in the privacy of their own homes, should visit Syria to see real suffering.

The OED defines transsexual as “a person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex”.

Imho if you’re trained to counsel someone suffering such confusion, you give them compassion, and if you’re not trained then don’t meddle, as it may do them more harm than good.