Someone says not to judge a transexual or his/her lifestyle

[buffalo]

I wish I would have had strong Catholics engage, admonish, and help me overcome these years ago! Whenever I support admonishing others in the faith, I am also supporting others to admonish myself. We are not individual entities that don’t rely on one another, and others relying on us.

Proverbs 27Iron sharpens iron,
****and one man sharpens another.

 

[Peter_J]

Well, virtually everyone in Spain is Catholic and there are large displays of condoms in supermarkets. Buy them with the groceries. And the people approved equal marriage here 12 year’s ago and still do. And protested a few weeks back that the government isn’t taking enough Syrian refugees.

I mean, Hispanic and Southern European. What can you do with us?

Interesting. In the USA it’s been only a little over a dozen years that “gay sex” has been legalized by the Supreme Court. Before then it landed people in jail in some states.

Yeah, I know what you’re thinking: conservative country, right?

Welllll … Consider that the Supreme Court legalized contraceptives almost 50 years before that, back in the 1960s. So maybe we shouldn’t say “conservative” so much as “Protestant”.

 

[Peter_J]

The OP tells us only that this is a transexual who has a ‘lifestyle’. Everyone has a lifestyle, the Dalai Lama has a lifestyle. The OP doesn’t say this person is doing anything harmful.

Indeed. The OP wrote, “This friend I have is a non-denomination Christian. She says all people cannot judge a transexual as a person, nor his/her lifestyle”. I don’t want to jump to conclusions or overreact, but I think the friend is muddying the water by using the word “lifestyle”.

 

[18Gingasoldier]

Just to make this clear, “lifestyle” in the sense my friend said was that the transsexual is living in sin, by believing and acting as the opposite sex/gender, and may act upon sins like having homosexual sex.
Yes, there are many lifestyles, but this is what my real life friend implied; a transsexual living in sin. That we can’t tell him/her of the wrong things s/he’s doing. She believes that the cultural norms AND the morals from the Old Testament are irrelevant today.

I agree that we can’t judge the sinner, but it is our job to tell him/her what s/he’s doing is wrong. I have never personally met a transgender person, though me and another former friend had a phase but quickly disappeared. I agree that the cultural norms from the OT were fulfilled, but the morality from then still remains.

Someone here told me not to continue debating my friend, since it could have turned into something heated. And so, I stopped debating. However, I’m still open to hear refutals, I want to be prepared for when something like this happens.

How can I refute that the morality from OT still stands today?
How can I better explain “love the sinner, hate the sin”?
What are some of the strongest arguments AGAINST trangenderism (not gender dyphoria in itself, I know that’s not a sin)?
How can I explain how sin affects everyone, regardless of discretion taken when the sin was committed?
Are there obvious literal passages that explicitly say transgenderism is wrong?

Thank you.

 

[Peter_J]

Just to make this clear, “lifestyle” in the sense my friend said was that the transsexual is living in sin,

Indeed, that’s how I took your original post, but I think that by putting it that way she muddies the waters a bit. (Much as when people use the phrase “the gay lifestyle”, which tends to make it seem like engaging in homosexual sex is the only way for gay people to be true to themselves, as it were.)

 

[buffalo]

Just to make this clear, “lifestyle” in the sense my friend said was that the transsexual is living in sin, by believing and acting as the opposite sex/gender, and may act upon sins like having homosexual sex.
Yes, there are many lifestyles, but this is what my real life friend implied; a transsexual living in sin. That we can’t tell him/her of the wrong things s/he’s doing. She believes that the cultural norms AND the morals from the Old Testament are irrelevant today.

I agree that we can’t judge the sinner, but it is our job to tell him/her what s/he’s doing is wrong. I have never personally met a transgender person, though me and another former friend had a phase but quickly disappeared. I agree that the cultural norms from the OT were fulfilled, but the morality from then still remains.

Someone here told me not to continue debating my friend, since it could have turned into something heated. And so, I stopped debating. However, I’m still open to hear refutals, I want to be prepared for when something like this happens.

How can I refute that the morality from OT still stands today?
How can I better explain “love the sinner, hate the sin”?
What are some of the strongest arguments AGAINST trangenderism (not gender dyphoria in itself, I know that’s not a sin)?
How can I explain how sin affects everyone, regardless of discretion taken when the sin was committed?
Are there obvious literal passages that explicitly say transgenderism is wrong?

Thank you.

Usually Leviticus will come up.

There were ceremonial, dietary and moral laws. Usually they conflate them. Be clear the ceremonial and dietary laws can change, but never the moral.

 

[inocente]

Interesting. In the USA it’s been only a little over a dozen years that “gay sex” has been legalized by the Supreme Court. Before then it landed people in jail in some states.

Yeah, I know what you’re thinking: conservative country, right?

Welllll … Consider that the Supreme Court legalized contraceptives almost 50 years before that, back in the 1960s. So maybe we shouldn’t say “conservative” so much as “Protestant”.

Yes, some Americans do come over as very Protestant puritan work ethic curtain twitching small town homeschooled .

 

[inocente]

How can I refute that the morality from OT still stands today?
How can I better explain “love the sinner, hate the sin”?
What are some of the strongest arguments AGAINST trangenderism (not gender dyphoria in itself, I know that’s not a sin)?
How can I explain how sin affects everyone, regardless of discretion taken when the sin was committed?
Are there obvious literal passages that explicitly say transgenderism is wrong?

Thank you.

The OT says it’s a sin to wear mixed fabrics and to eat shellfish. The OT uses an outward moral code, while Christians have the New Covenant (CCC 1961-1974).

Anyone who already decided transexual is a sin, and then tried to find verses to justify himself, would be wrong. Catholics are hopefully taught to let scripture speak to them, not try to force it to say what they think it should say. I’d predict scripture says nothing specific on transgenders as they are a very small minority, possible less than 1 in 200 people.

Their attempted suicide rate is 41%, against 4.6% in the general Amercian population. It isn’t clear why they are almost ten times more likely to try to kill themselves, but whatever the reasons, they are obviously very fragile and vulnerable.

We can at the very least conclude that meddlers would be highly likely to cause further damage and possibly suicide, so anyone moved to help them should train to counsel them.

Reports on the Pope’s statements on transgenders differ (see below). I think he’s saying have compassion for trangenders, and that the real issue is schools teaching an ideology he calls gender theory, the doctrine that there’s no real difference between male and female so it’s just a choice. In which case, judging transgenders does nothing about the real issue.

ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chronicles/pope-francis-gender-theory-problem-not-solution
advocate.com/religion/2016/10/03/pope-francis-says-jesus-would-not-abandon-transgender-people
catholicnewsagency.com/news/for-us-bishops-pope-francis-brings-clarity-to-transgender-issues-90466/

There’s definitely a respectable aspect to your point. But what you are doing, is admonishing the admonisher (assuming that the admonisher is admonishing poorly).

As above, I think the possibility of doing more harm than good by intervening is very high here. But also if I take the Pope as saying the real issue is what kids are taught in schools, then admonishing trans people is admonishing the victims of that teaching, not the culprits.

 

[18Gingasoldier]

I should have asked: “Refute that the OT morality does NOT stand today”, oops.

I don’t think I need verses to show that transgenderism is a bad thing. Just because it wasn’t especifically mentioned doesn’t mean it’s good to do, transgender people have a feeling they’re the opposite sex while they already have a determined physical sex. Some feminists are against gender identities, since it can stereotype sexes/genders.

 

[inocente]

I should have asked: “Refute that the OT morality does NOT stand today”, oops

Christians say it doesn’t but I guess Jews say it does. For Christians, Christ is the fulfillment of the law, Did you see the CCC paragraphs I cited? The summary has:

*1980 The Old Law is the first stage of revealed law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments.

1981 The Law of Moses contains many truths naturally accessible to reason. God has revealed them because men did not read them in their hearts.

1982 The Old Law is a preparation for the Gospel.

1983 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit received by faith in Christ, operating through charity. It finds expression above all in the Lord’s Sermon on the Mount and uses the sacraments to communicate grace to us.

1984 The Law of the Gospel fulfills and surpasses the Old Law and brings it to perfection: its promises, through the Beatitudes of the Kingdom of heaven; its commandments, by reforming the heart, the root of human acts.*

 

[punisherthunder]

It’s easy not to judge them.

However, when I get notices from the elementary school telling me that another first grader identifies as a female (born male), and that my child has to play along and use "non-binary, non cis gender terms’, then I have an issue. My son can’t wear a Captain America shirt because it promotes “male normative behavior that violates the dignity of a classmate that identifies as a non-cis gender”.

So all this is ok?

 

[inocente]

It’s easy not to judge them.

However, when I get notices from the elementary school telling me that another first grader identifies as a female (born male), and that my child has to play along and use "non-binary, non cis gender terms’, then I have an issue. My son can’t wear a Captain America shirt because it promotes “male normative behavior that violates the dignity of a classmate that identifies as a non-cis gender”.

So all this is ok?

Nooooooooooooooo! Seems like the Pope is right and it’s not the fault of the kids.

Sure stop children from bullying, teach them empathy and the golden rule, but telling first graders they must use “non-binary, non cis gender terms” sounds more like fanaticism than common sense.

Jesus is a popular boy’s name in Spain. I guess that name would be banned in your district to avoid violating the dignity of a classmate that identifies as non-religious.

 

[buffalo]

It’s easy not to judge them.

However, when I get notices from the elementary school telling me that another first grader identifies as a female (born male), and that my child has to play along and use "non-binary, non cis gender terms’, then I have an issue. My son can’t wear a Captain America shirt because it promotes “male normative behavior that violates the dignity of a classmate that identifies as a non-cis gender”.

So all this is ok?

No way and tell them so. Take a stand.

 

[Peter_J]

As above, I think the possibility of doing more harm than good by intervening is very high here. But also if I take the Pope as saying the real issue is what kids are taught in schools, then admonishing trans people is admonishing the victims of that teaching, not the culprits.

Just now I was preparing counter arguments to some of the things you posted today … then I read the above and decided to just stop for a minute and say, That is a really excellent point.

 

[rcwitness]

Nooooooooooooooo! Seems like the Pope is right and it’s not the fault of the kids.

Having a disordered fault comes through Original Sin and it’s consequences. We should not condemn someone who is already condemned to begin with. We are called to encourage one another to overcome our sinful nature, by receiving the nature of God, Who gained power to do so by taking our nature and suffering against its fallen will to the point of death at Calvary.

 

[buffalo]

Just to make this clear, “lifestyle” in the sense my friend said was that the transsexual is living in sin, by believing and acting as the opposite sex/gender, and may act upon sins like having homosexual sex.
Yes, there are many lifestyles, but this is what my real life friend implied; a transsexual living in sin. That we can’t tell him/her of the wrong things s/he’s doing. She believes that the cultural norms AND the morals from the Old Testament are irrelevant today.

I agree that we can’t judge the sinner, but it is our job to tell him/her what s/he’s doing is wrong. I have never personally met a transgender person, though me and another former friend had a phase but quickly disappeared. I agree that the cultural norms from the OT were fulfilled, but the morality from then still remains.

Someone here told me not to continue debating my friend, since it could have turned into something heated. And so, I stopped debating. However, I’m still open to hear refutals, I want to be prepared for when something like this happens.

How can I refute that the morality from OT still stands today?
How can I better explain “love the sinner, hate the sin”?
What are some of the strongest arguments AGAINST trangenderism (not gender dyphoria in itself, I know that’s not a sin)?
How can I explain how sin affects everyone, regardless of discretion taken when the sin was committed?
Are there obvious literal passages that explicitly say transgenderism is wrong?

Thank you.

Where Do Good and Evil Come From?

 

[Peter_J]

Jesus is a popular boy’s name in Spain. I guess that name would be banned in your district to avoid violating the dignity of a classmate that identifies as non-religious.

LOL.

But seriously, we use “Joshua”.

 

[Peter_J]

Just the fact that she used the word “lifestyle” would somewhat put me on alert. But maybe that’s just me.

To elaborate a little on my earlier post, something that’s always bothered me is when gay people say things like “If I’m gay, then why shouldn’t I live a gay lifestyle?” (to which I might reply with, As opposed to what, living a “straight lifestyle”?)

That being said, I did a Google search just now, and from what I saw I get the impression that many gay people are themselves coming to realize that talking about a “gay lifestyle” doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Granted, I didn’t do extensive/proper research to verify my impression, but I think the search results that I got are encouraging nevertheless.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

To elaborate a little on my earlier post, something that’s always bothered me is when gay people say things like “If I’m gay, then why shouldn’t I live a gay lifestyle?” (to which I might reply with, As opposed to what, living a “straight lifestyle”?)

That being said, I did a Google search just now, and from what I saw I get the impression that many gay people are themselves coming to realize that talking about a “gay lifestyle” doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Granted, I didn’t do extensive/proper research to verify my impression, but I think the search results that I got are encouraging nevertheless.

I think they still live a gay lifestyle. All their friends are gay, and the media caters to them.

 

[Peter_J]

I think they still live a gay lifestyle. All their friends are gay, and the media caters to them.

Well one step at a time. I can’t not feel encouraged by the search results that I saw.

Funny thing is, your remark makes me wonder if the next step should be to work on conservatives using phrases like “gay lifestyle”.