Something about Mary

[jschutzm]

Mary, Our Blessed Virgin Mother of Our Lord, is so important for us and should be considered our own mother. I cannot understand how one can be dedicated to God yet ignore Mary and her love and graces. It was God who made her Queen of Heaven, and we her loyal subjects. It was God who made her the dispenser of all of His graces making it so that no grace falls from Heaven that doesn’t first pass through her most virginal and gentle hands. We are all subject to Mary, for she is indeed Queen. She pleads on our behalf constantly. She has all authority over the Saints, Angels, and even the demons. The last, though they cannot stand her sight, are forced to respect her. For to do anything else would be a terrible blasphemy. She is the destroyer of those damned hell-beings. She is a model for all decent Christians to follow. In her chastity, obedience, wisdom, and gentleness. When Our Lord was lost, who found Him? When we lose Christ from our lives, who is it then that will lead us back to Him? Just as the star lead the Maji to Christ, so will Mary lead us to Christ. She acts as the very staircase on which we are to ascend to Heaven, after all!

We do not put Mary above God, certainly not. For all correct devotion to Mary, ultimately leads to Christ. She is the vessel that leads us to Christ. So many correct analogies can be placed to her. She is so vital. So important. So crucial. Both then, now, and forever. She will constantly aid her children and defend them, so naturally, we must defend her unblemished honor and purity from the heathens who attempt to defile it. It is our mission and our goal. Deus lo vult.

~ Pius :knight1:

Again, more directed to our Protestant brethren who struggle with this, but
I like the Catholic reasoning…

“If you TRULY love Jesus - why would you regard his mother as no one special? - just a vessel?”

If one truly loves me, they would also love whom I love, as well.

We can not claim to love Jesus, but then despise all the people he died for. (or some of us do, but that shows a deficiency in our love for Christ) - Right?

Remember… God is the ONLY ‘being’ (for lack of a better term) in the Universe that got to choose his own Mother - perhaps waiting an eternity for the right person, if need-be. And he chose Mary. Out of all of eternity… he chose HER.

THIS is HUGELY important in Catholicism, and can not be understated. No one gets to choose their mother…only God. And he chose HER.

There is gotta be ‘something about Mary’ – AGREED?

 

[razredge]

So how about from your own words? Why is Mary so important? What is so special or good about her? Why do you devote so much time and attention to her? And, if she was such a good and holy person, why didn’t Jesus make her into a priest?

I’m just here to find out your opinions. I’ll ask questions if I run into points of confusion.

Thanks for your help.

Frankly, I think there is a bit too much attention given to Mary in the Catholic Church - probably a result of the natural human tendency to want to elevate humans to the status of the divine.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Not always that I get a response from a Blessed Pope!

Thank you all for the resources. I’ll read what you have to offer.

Lots of thinking to do.

I just have a bit of a devotion to the great Pope - Pius IX.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Frankly, I think there is a bit too much attention given to Mary in the Catholic Church - probably a result of the natural human tendency to want to elevate humans to the status of the divine.

Except Catholics don’t teach that Mary is divine.

 

[razredge]

Except Catholics don’t teach that Mary is divine.

No they don’t teach that, but the way many Catholics go about it you’d think we do - she is not regarded as merely the greatest saint but instead occupies some sort of special category between God and the rest of humankind, a demi-goddess if you will.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

No they don’t teach that, but the way many Catholics go about it you’d think we do - she is not regarded as merely the greatest saint but instead occupies some sort of special category between God and the rest of humankind, a demi-goddess if you will.

Except Catholics don’t teach that she’s a demi-goddess either. No such thing as it happens to be. But since there is nothing new under the sun, yes I suppose Mariolatry did exist somewhere or at some point. Actually when I was volunteering in CCD 2 weeks ago a 6th grader said that his Mom says they worship Mary; thankfully the child, the main CCD teacher, myself, and all the other kids in the classroom knew that to be incorrect. (true story)

The argument can be made that she is the greatest saint, being the first person who said a “yes” to Christ.

As far as comparing to the rest of humankind, I think having no inclination to sin (no original sin) puts her on the level of “our fallen nature’s solitary boast” or so Wordsworth puts it:

http://www.bartleby.com/145/ww626.html:

Mother! whose virgin bosom was uncrost
With the least shade of thought to sin allied;
Woman! above all women glorified,
Our tainted nature’s solitary boast;
Purer than foam on central ocean tost;
Brighter than eastern skies on daybreak strewn
With fancied roses, then the unblemished moon
Before her wane begins on heaven’s blue coast;
Thy image falls to earth. Yet some, I ween
Not unforgiven the suppliant knee might bend
As to a visible Power, in which did bend
All that was mixed and reconciled in Thee
Of mother’s love with maiden purity
Of high with low, celestial with terrene!

 

[razredge]

Yes I know, full well that the de jure theological position is that Catholics do not worship Mary (hyperdulia vs latria etc), however for many the de facto position is that they do, at least it appears that way. Certainly if you ask an outsider looking in at Marian devotional practices whether they thought Catholics worshipped Mary, would they say yes or no?

I’m not even sure why she’s the greatest saint, she wasn’t a martyr for the faith, she didn’t contribute any great spiritual or theological teachings, she didn’t travel around the world evangelising. Certainly, I agree that she lived a life of quiet humility and simple obedience, which is admirable but I don’t think that in itself that merits her lofty status eg. suggesting she is Queen of Heaven alongside Christ the King which is quite ridiculous (if not blasphemous) to even imply that a created being can occupy similar rank to uncreated, transcendant God)

And being born free of Original Sin, is not due to her own merit but rather God’s grace - so that shouldn’t count either.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Yes I know, full well that the de jure theological position is that Catholics do not worship Mary (hyperdulia vs latria etc), however for many the de facto position is that they do, at least it appears that way. Certainly if you ask an outsider looking in at Marian devotional practices whether they thought Catholics worshipped Mary, would they say yes or no?

I’m not even sure why she’s the greatest saint, she wasn’t a martyr for the faith, she didn’t contribute any great spiritual or theological teachings, she didn’t travel around the world evangelising. Certainly, I agree that she lived a life of quiet humility and simple obedience, which is admirable but I don’t think that in itself that merits her lofty status eg. suggesting she is Queen of Heaven alongside Christ the King which is quite ridiculous (if not blasphemous) to even imply that a created being can occupy similar rank to uncreated, transcendant God)

And being born free of Original Sin, is not due to her own merit but rather God’s grace - so that shouldn’t count either.

So would my post be considered “worship”? Or simple veneration?

EDIT: Follow up question, do you consider it blasphemous?

 

[razredge]

So would my post be considered “worship”? Or simple veneration?

EDIT: Follow up question, do you consider it blasphemous?

A bit excessive but not yet blasphemous. A bit misinformed too

I cannot understand how one can be dedicated to God yet ignore Mary and her love and graces.

The Apostles and the early Church certainly had no problem with this

It was God who made her Queen of Heaven, and we her loyal subjects. It was God who made her the dispenser of all of His graces making it so that no grace falls from Heaven that doesn’t first pass through her most virginal and gentle hands.

When did God tell us this?

We are all subject to Mary, for she is indeed Queen. She has all authority over the Saints, Angels, and even the demons. The last, though they cannot stand her sight, are forced to respect her. For to do anything else would be a terrible blasphemy. She is the destroyer of those damned hell-beings.

Again, we know this how?

We do not put Mary above God, certainly not. For all correct devotion to Mary, ultimately leads to Christ.

Perhaps, but why not just have the devotion to Christ and skip Mary altogether
Jesus seemed like an approachable guy, didn’t seem like someone who needs a go-between

 

[po18guy]

Yes I know, full well that the de jure theological position is that Catholics do not worship Mary (hyperdulia vs latria etc), however for many the de facto position is that they do, at least it appears that way. Certainly if you ask an outsider looking in at Marian devotional practices whether they thought Catholics worshipped Mary, would they say yes or no?

I’m not even sure why she’s the greatest saint, she wasn’t a martyr for the faith, she didn’t contribute any great spiritual or theological teachings, she didn’t travel around the world evangelising. Certainly, I agree that she lived a life of quiet humility and simple obedience, which is admirable but I don’t think that in itself that merits her lofty status eg. suggesting she is Queen of Heaven alongside Christ the King which is quite ridiculous (if not blasphemous) to even imply that a created being can occupy similar rank to uncreated, transcendant God)

And being born free of Original Sin, is not due to her own merit but rather God’s grace - so that shouldn’t count either.

Do you ignore that all things were created by Christ, including His mother? Do you ignore that the throne of David, upon which Christ sits, has a seat beside it? Do you not know that Bathsheba sat on it and interceded on behalf of others before King Solomon - the “Son of David”?

How can you claim to be Catholic while ignoring and/or rejecting Catholic doctrine? You cannot do this in a search for truth, but rather in neglect of it.

 

[razredge]

Do you ignore that all things were created by Christ, including His mother? Do you ignore that the throne of David, upon which Christ sits, has a seat beside it? Do you not know that Bathsheba sat on it and interceded on behalf of others before King Solomon - the “Son of David”?

How can you claim to be Catholic while ignoring and/or rejecting Catholic doctrine? You cannot do this in a search for truth, but rather in neglect of it.

Of course not - what kind of argument is that?

What about David’s throne and Bathsheba and Solomon? How can you possibly extrapolate specific details like that to Christ and Mary (I alsodon’t seem to recall Bathsheba’s intercession being in the Bible)?

Oh and Christ does not sit on a physical throne - it’s a metaphor.

 

[po18guy]

Of course not - what kind of argument is that?

What about David’s throne and Bathsheba and Solomon? How can you possibly extrapolate specific details like that to Christ and Mary (I alsodon’t seem to recall Bathsheba’s intercession being in the Bible)?

Oh and Christ does not sit on a physical throne - it’s a metaphor.

It is just that your reasoning and arguments, your incredulity, your rejection of Church authority are so typically protestant. My old cop’s brain causes a lot of suspicion to arise. You did not learn your beliefs from the Catholic Church. So, I then wonder, from where…?

There is a spirit that has planted the seeds of Marian misogyny in many Christians today. Observation and not accusation.

 

[eddadonkey]

+JMJ+

Perhaps, but why not just have the devotion to Christ and skip Mary altogether
Jesus seemed like an approachable guy, didn’t seem like someone who needs a go-between

And what if the Lord did tell me to do just that, to go to Mary to go to Jesus (which by the way is how I have discerned the Lord’s calling to me)?

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

A bit excessive but not yet blasphemous. A bit misinformed too

Well, I took most of it from what I learned from Saint Louis de Montfort and his writings of Mary. Though they were written from what I remember, not verbatim. I just tried to offer the “jist” of it.

The Apostles and the early Church certainly had no problem with this

Our Lord gave John the Beloved custody of His, and our, Blessed Mother. To say that early Christians ignored the graces that Mary grants to us through Christ is an error. For instance, the early Christian student of Polycarp (a student of Saint John the Beloved), Iraneus says that she became a cause for salvation for the whole human race! And Saint Justin (Early 100’s) states: “For whereas Eve, yet a virgin and undefiled, through conceiving the word that came from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings that the Spirit of the Lord should come upon her, and the power of the Most High overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One to be born of her should be the Son of God, answered, Be it don to me according to thy word.” Clearly they were atleast devoted to the Blessed Mother enough to give her praise.

When did God tell us this?

It was the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin that shows us that she was taken up to Heaven (body and soul). It is a principle feast day of our Faith (assuming, you are indeed a Catholic. I don’t remember if your religion said protestant or Catholic. Mea culpa.). We, as Catholics, must believe she was taken up to Heaven. As to reject it would be heresy on a few different counts.

Again, we know this how?

Earlier I quoted Saint Justin. I will quote him again:
Saint Justin:

by means of her was he born, concerning whom we have shown so many Scriptures were spoken; through whom God overthrows the serpent, and those angels and men who have become like to it, and on the other hand, works deliverance from death for such as repent of their evil doings and believe in him

Thus, she stamps out the serpent (Satan). Not to mention, Mary is traditionally seen in statues with her foot trampling a snake.

Saint Bonaventure also stated that the Angels of Heaven cried out “Holy, Holy, Holy Mary, Virgin Mother of God!”

Perhaps, but why not just have the devotion to Christ and skip Mary altogether
Jesus seemed like an approachable guy, didn’t seem like someone who needs a go-between

Saint Louis de Montfort comments on this. He says that no devotion to Mary exceeds that of which we give to Our Lord. We are to remember that the Angel exalts Mary first - then Jesus. He said “O Mary, Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” We can go directly to Jesus, this is true, however we must also remember that it is by far more humble to go to Mary who, at Cana, convinced Our Lord to do a miracle. It is the same now, as well. Not to mention, I do truly believe that it is God’s will. We mustn’t think we are slighting God in anyway by praying to MAry seeking her prayers and intercession.

~ Pius :knight1:

 

[razredge]

It is just that your reasoning and arguments, your incredulity, your rejection of Church authority are so typically protestant. My old cop’s brain causes a lot of suspicion to arise. You did not learn your beliefs from the Catholic Church. So, I then wonder, from where…?

There is a spirit that has planted the seeds of Marian misogyny in many Christians today. Observation and not accusation.

Actually I did learn my beliefs from the Catholic Church, born and bred Catholic, from a devout, very Marian, Rosary praying family (in fact we have a statue of Mary in our garden)

It is only recently that I have begun to think about Mariology in Catholicism.
My reasoning and arguments are all my own actually - from either observation, looking at the history of Mariology or simply thinking about the issue - I haven’t read any Protestant anti-Marian polemics or even met any Protestants who question Marian beliefs etc.

+JMJ+

And what if the Lord did tell me to do just that, to go to Mary to go to Jesus (which by the way is how I have discerned the Lord’s calling to me)?

If He actually said that, then i’d believe it - but God doesn’t talk to me.

 

[razredge]

Our Lord gave John the Beloved custody of His, and our, Blessed Mother. To say that early Christians ignored the graces that Mary grants to us through Christ is an error. For instance, the early Christian student of Polycarp (a student of Saint John the Beloved), Iraneus says that she became a cause for salvation for the whole human race! And Saint Justin (Early 100’s) states: “For whereas Eve, yet a virgin and undefiled, through conceiving the word that came from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings that the Spirit of the Lord should come upon her, and the power of the Most High overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One to be born of her should be the Son of God, answered, Be it don to me according to thy word.” Clearly they were atleast devoted to the Blessed Mother enough to give her praise.

Jesus giving John care of his mother only has deeper meaning if you want to read that into it. (as with Solomon and Bathsheba prefiguring Jesus and Mary)

Well of course she’s a cause of the salvation of the whole human race, not arguing with that-but notice that neither Ireneaus nor Justin say anything as exuberant as Louis de Montfort.

And the neither Gospels nor the Epistles make any indication that we are to have a special devotion to Mary.

It was the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin that shows us that she was taken up to Heaven (body and soul). It is a principle feast day of our Faith (assuming, you are indeed a Catholic. I don’t remember if your religion said protestant or Catholic. Mea culpa.). We, as Catholics, must believe she was taken up to Heaven. As to reject it would be heresy on a few different counts.

Well I’m afraid I reject that as well, no historic evidence for it - that doctrine is based solely on theological speculation and a good dose of wishful thinking.

And anyway, there are no bodies in heaven, it’s not a physical place.

Thus, she stamps out the serpent (Satan). Not to mention, Mary is traditionally seen in statues with her foot trampling a snake.

It’s an allusion to the Genesis prophecy.

Saint Bonaventure also stated that the Angels of Heaven cried out “Holy, Holy, Holy Mary, Virgin Mother of God!”

I see, it seems to be that Louis de Montfort wrote that Bonaventure claimed to have heard this - hardly compelling in the first place, especially if it was from the pseudepigraphic works attributed to Bonaventure (like the Vita Christi)

And the full quote seems to be:

According to St. Bonaventure, all the angels in heaven unceasingly call out to her: “Holy, holy, holy Mary, Virgin Mother of God.” They greet her countless times each day with the angelic greeting, “Hail, Mary”, while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests.

Which is a rather fantastical account based on medieval court life.

We can go directly to Jesus, this is true, however we must also remember that it is by far more humble to go to Mary who, at Cana, convinced Our Lord to do a miracle. It is the same now, as well. Not to mention, I do truly believe that it is God’s will. We mustn’t think we are slighting God in anyway by praying to MAry seeking her prayers and intercession.

Yes, the wedding at Cana which is often given as an example of Marian intercession - It’s important to note that Jesus’ reluctance to doing a miracle then was that his ‘hour has not yet come’ as he had not yet started his public ministry. However once he had started his public ministry he had no such qualms in working miracles when asked.

I don’t think God will get slighted if we pray to Mary, since He’s beyond such petty human emotions and will probably be pleased that we take the time to pray at all.

 

[po18guy]

It is only recently that I have begun to think about Mariology in Catholicism. My reasoning and arguments are all my own actually - from either observation, looking at the history of Mariology or simply thinking about the issue - I haven’t read any Protestant anti-Marian polemics or even met any Protestants who question Marian beliefs etc.

Odd, is it not, that you have only recently begun to think about doctrine, then question it, then doubt it, then take action based on that doubt? Compare this process to the fall in Genesis 3:1-6 and you will see that it is identical. I see that it has the same source. Your faith is under spiritual attack.

 

[eddadonkey]

+JMJ+

If He actually said that, then i’d believe it - but God doesn’t talk to me.

Aww, poor you!

That means you do not pray! For prayer is both a talking to God and a listening to Him.

So why not go to His Momma about it?

 

[zz912]

Jesus giving John care of his mother only has deeper meaning if you want to read that into it. (as with Solomon and Bathsheba prefiguring Jesus and Mary)

Maybe you need to re-look into the prefigurement of Jesus with King David and King Solomon. Jesus is called the Son of David, and He is to sit on David’s throne. And I would also suggest researching into the Ark of the Covenant a little more. God had a long-term plan with these things in the OT. He was showing us and revealing to us who He is.

And anyway, there are no bodies in heaven, it’s not a physical place.

This is simply unscriptural. Enos and Elijah were both assumed bodily into heaven (or at least Abraham’s bosom). And we ALL are to be reunited with our bodies at the Second Coming.

It’s an allusion to the Genesis prophecy.

And rightfully so. Jesus uses the same title for His Mother that God the Father gave to Eve, “Woman”.

Yes, the wedding at Cana which is often given as an example of Marian intercession - It’s important to note that Jesus’ reluctance to doing a miracle then was that his ‘hour has not yet come’ as he had not yet started his public ministry. However once he had started his public ministry he had no such qualms in working miracles when asked.

Not all the time. Many times He was asked for a miracle or sign, and refused to give them a sign because their hearts were hardened. Asking for the intercession of Mary shows our humility by acknowledging we aren’t even worthy to ask Him for something. (Just as John the Baptist rightfully noted that he was not worthy to tie His sandals, which was one of the dirtiest and humblest tasks one could perform at that time.)

I don’t think God will get slighted if we pray to Mary, since He’s beyond such petty human emotions and will probably be pleased that we take the time to pray at all.

Of course He wouldn’t. We are showing reverence and respect to His mother, the one whom He created to be His mother. I certainly am not slighted in the least when my children show respect to my wife. In fact, I am happy when they do so, because they are showing respect and love to those whom I love.

 

[RosaryCancer]

I would strongly recommend you to read the book **“The Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary”**from the visions Of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich. Once you meet her through this book I doubt you will have more questions. My heart was breaking while I was reading it…