Something that has been bothering me for a while now

[morning_star777]

My position is the same as yours. I was trying to point out **the inconsistencies **of Morningstar’s position. He or she thinks it’s okay to exclude Muslims but not Jews from worshipping the one true God. Well on what grounds? Don’t the Jewish and Muslim conceptions of God resemble each other more than they do the Christian one? Saying the Jews worship the “God of the Bible” just papers over this crucial difference, in my opinion.

Inconsistencies?What were the inconsistencies my friend?I just wanted to say that Jews believe in the same God as we do,but Muslims believe in a different God?Well I think I couldn’t express myself correctly.Now let me try again.I just said that Jews can be saved,atleast they have the better chance than Muslim but I was not saying that Jews can be saved without new covenant because they follow the old covenant that was sent by God.But I just wanted to say that Jews have the better chance than Muslims or others if there is any chance to be saved outside the new covenant.But Why I do not give priority to Muslims and why I do not think that Muslims’ worship the Abrahamic God?Okay, now one question,may I ask that why do you think that Muslims’ believe the same Abrahamic God as we do?just because they claim that?if yes then,assume that I am goint to preach a new religion,the religion’s God will be the Abrahamic God,the followers will follow the Abrahamic prophets(as Muslims do) and if I can convince some peoples(like assume that it is one hundred) to convert to my new religion,then what will be your opinion about My new Abrahamic religion?Will you agree with your own thoughts that I am going to preach a new religion and who will be the followers of my new Abrahamic religion,they adore Abrahamic God?

***Just I want to know your position about this new religion and it’s followers who will adore Abrahamic God.***Then i hope I can go further.Thanks.

 

[morning_star777]

I’ve been looking for your post so that I can see what you mean by “leaving it to God” but I can’t find it. Maybe God wants you to show some charity towards Muslims by recognizing that they are fellow monotheists and therefore closer to the truth than say, Hindus?

As for the rest of your post, I don’t think Islam and violence are essentially linked in any way that differs from the way all religions can be perverted to condone violence and barbarism.

Some Charity?Am I too uncharitable to Muslims because I said that they do not worship the same God?And about violence?Okay we can discuss it later if necessary.But please read my previous post(I have posted few seconds before),I hope I could express myself in my previous post.

PS.If I claim that Muslims do not worship the Abrahamic God and if that’s why I am not charitable then i think I (as well as others who think same as me) should not join any types of argument related to islam.What do you think Tom?

 

[tomarin]

Inconsistencies?What were the inconsistencies my friend?I just wanted to say that Jews believe in the same God as we do,but Muslims believe in a different God?

The inconsistency lies in allowing that Jews worship the same God that Christians do but denying the same for Muslims, even though both reject Christ’s divinity.

Well I think I couldn’t express myself correctly.Now let me try again.I just said that Jews can be saved,atleast they have the better chance than Muslim but I was not saying that Jews can be saved without new covenant because they follow the old covenant that was sent by God.But I just wanted to say that Jews have the better chance than Muslims or others if there is any chance to be saved outside the new covenant.But Why I do not give priority to Muslims and why I do not think that Muslims’ worship the Abrahamic God?Okay, now one question,may I ask that why do you think that Muslims’ believe the same Abrahamic God as we do?just because they claim that?

Because they are monotheists like us, and because their religion grew up in an environment influenced by Christianity and Judaism, and because they have always defined themselves in opposition to polytheism (moreso than in opposition to other monotheistic faiths, which is something many of the Christian posters here fail to appreciate).

if yes then,assume that I am goint to preach a new religion,the religion’s God will be the Abrahamic God,the followers will follow the Abrahamic prophets(as Muslims do) and if I can convince some peoples(like assume that it is one hundred) to convert to my new religion,then what will be your opinion about My new Abrahamic religion

I would say you’re a false prophet and you have no business starting a new religion. But I can’t say everything about your religion is false if you share many of the beliefs that I have.

 

[tomarin]

Some Charity?Am I too uncharitable to Muslims because I said that they do not worship the same God?

I think so, but you should be more concerned about the logical problems that grow from holding such a position, in my opinion.

And about violence?Okay we can discuss it later if necessary.But please read my previous post(I have posted few seconds before),I hope I could express myself in my previous post.

PS.If I claim that Muslims do not worship the Abrahamic God and if that’s why I am not charitable then i think I (as well as others who think same as me) should not join any types of argument related to islam.What do you think Tom?

I think people come to these forums to learn and if they do so in that spirit who am I to tell them to censor themselves?

 

[morning_star777]

The inconsistency lies in allowing that Jews worship the same God that Christians do but denying the same for Muslims, even though both reject Christ’s divinity.

Jews reject Jesus, but still they follow old law that came from God, but since they reject jesus so they are incomplete and they do not worship Abrahamic God in the right way.

And about Muslims? Do they accept any laws from God? Neither they believe in new covenant nor old. So Actually obedience to which law made them the follower of Abrahamic God? Just because Muhammed declared that he is an Abrahamic prophet accepted other Abrahamic prophets as prophet?Be sure if Muslims are ready to accept atleast one law, then I have no problem,and if We can call that Muslims adore Abrahamic god,then it is also true like other Monotheist religion.

Because they are monotheists like us, and because their religion grew up in an environment influenced by Christianity and Judaism, and because they have always defined themselves in opposition to polytheism (moreso than in opposition to other monotheistic faiths, which is something many of the Christian posters here fail to appreciate).

Good point . Now I want to inform you that a part of Hinduism some time try to practice Abrahamic monotheism and they call Jesus as the on of Shri Krishna. And A sector named Brahmo Samaj who rejected polytheism and worship only one God. And if monotheism is key then you know they are also monotheist.
And another sector named Lingaystism(of Hinduism) they are also monotheist.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingayatism
And another monotheist movement is an ancient religion
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

But if you think that they are not same to Muslims because they Just did not claim that they worship Abrahmic God,then I have nothing to say really.And Zoroastrianism taught that Ahura mazda is God and no evil originates from Him.And another thing,when islam was established then many Jews and few christian branches were in Arabian peninsula.He (Muhammed) easily could accept one of them.If Muhammed had problem with trinity then he had another option and that was to embraced Judaism, so it was not necessary to establish a new religion if he really wanted to serve God of Abraham.

I would say you’re a false prophet and you have no business starting a new religion. But I can’t say everything about your religion is false if you share many of the beliefs that I have.

Alright! If it is your answer then what can I say! Just I want to say no normal people can be false prophets and false prophets are always very dangerous person and they are the lamb coated wolves, and bible also said so. I should not post the verses from revelation 13 again because I believe you know it very well. And you may doubt again about my charity. Thanks.

 

[morning_star777]

I think so,

Alright,thank you.So I learned a new definition.But I don’t think here all Catholics think that since Muslims are our monotheist fellows so they worship the same Abrahamic God.

 

[morning_star777]

** And you may doubt again about my charity**.

If I will post the verses from bible those are about false prophets.So it is better(for me) not to post the verses.Thanks.

 

[morning_star777]

Because they are monotheists like us, and because their religion grew up in an environment influenced by Christianity and Judaism, and because they have always defined themselves in opposition to polytheism (moreso than in opposition to other monotheistic faiths, which is something many of the Christian posters here fail to appreciate).

.

So because they are monotheistic like us?And only it make you think and believe that Muslims worship the same God as Christians?Or do you think so because of the claims of some Muslims or SOME teachings of the Qur’an?How can you rely on the teachings of a religion that overtly denies basic Christian tenets as well as many doctrines of Judaism?.If their religion grew up in an environment influenced by Christianity and Judaism then they had the better chance than others to embrace the truth,but in reality what happened?Can you please explain it?

 

[fbl9]

Hello fb19 and again thank you for responding.

In my quest try to understand Christianity I come across doctrine that I do not understand. I thank you for your efforts in trying to clarify some of my inquiries.

All I have to use to decern doctrine is logic. And that is where I fail to see the logic that the God that the Jews worship did not reveal himself “in truth”. That the Jews faith in God was (is) incomplete.

I think we can agree God is God. God has not nor has ever changed. That the God you worship ( in trinity ) is the same God that saved Noah (Gentiles) and gave humanity a covernant and laws. The same God that saved Issac and made Abraham the first (Jew) of many. And yes the same God that revealed his back to Moses and gave the Jews the laws in which some are kept by Christianity and Islam.

Is it logical for God to prescribe a method of reconciliation, that would be incomplete, yet let his “chosen” believe it was complete for thousands of years?

I thank you again for your time and effort.

Your welcome robsully: sorry i can not articulate myself well enough.

Why do the Jews and Islamists wait for a "messiah’?
Who is the messiah of Islam and the Jews? Is the messiah mere human or God?

 

[robsully]

Hello fb19, happy to hear from you and I’m glad to see your response.

Yes you have been very articulate. I find as I try to understand Christianity, I find some dilemmas.

1. The Christian belief that the only way to salvation is through Jesus.
2. Jews do not believe in Jesus.

The Jew are, before the promise of Messiah and after, the"chosen". The reipients of laws, blessing, covernants and the belief Messiah would come from them the Jews.

I find the concept that the Jews are, incomplete, worshipping not "in truth"or lacking in faith hard to comprehend. A dillema in which I have no answer.

Islam,Messiah? One religion at a time.

Jewish Messiah? Some are waiting, some say Messiah is here

Thank you once again

 

[Booklover]

So because they are monotheistic like us?And only it make you think and believe that Muslims worship the same God as Christians?Or do you think so because of the claims of some Muslims or SOME teachings of the Qur’an?How can you rely on the teachings of a religion that overtly denies basic Christian tenets as well as many doctrines of Judaism?.If their religion grew up in an environment influenced by Christianity and Judaism then they had the better chance than others to embrace the truth,but in reality what happened?Can you please explain it?

He doesn’t seem to care what they believe, as long as they believe in one god!

Vickie

 

[2nd_Adam]

No answer. Are native Americans who lived prior to the time of Columbus in hell? If you must accept Jesus to get to heaven, where are those who were physically unable to know of him through no fault of their own?

I’m not sure what you mean by “no fault of their own”? Have all peoples sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; therefore, condemned before God for their sins? God’s provision for forgiveness has been provided in Christ. However, we receive Christ throught faith (trust) in the gospel. Old Testament Saints are saved by the blood of Christ, correct? God chose the nation of Israel as His own, and the other nations were judged and condemned for their sins. How about all that God judges and destroyed in the flood with the exception of the remnant of Noah? Somehow, I think you are implying that native Americans will not get what they deserve. Grace and forgiveness is receiving what you do not deserve. Do you see my point? If we can be saved from our sins apart from Jesus Christ… then Jesus died in vain. If you are implying that native Americans have been reconciled to God and saved apart from faith in Christ, then Jesus died in vain indeed. His rescue mission to save sinners was not necesary… and the gospel is not so glorious. I don’t think early Church Fathers believed that sinners were saved apart from faith in Christ. If you think native Americans are saved because they did not have a chance to believe in Christ… then on what basis are they justified before God?

Justified by Faith

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.Gal 2

 

[tomarin]

Jews reject Jesus, but still they follow old law that came from God, but since they reject jesus so they are incomplete and they do not worship Abrahamic God in the right way.

Christians have traditionally believed that that old law is null and void because it has been superceded by Christianity, so whether Jews still follow it or not is beside the point.

And about Muslims? Do they accept any laws from God? Neither they believe in new covenant nor old. So Actually obedience to which law made them the follower of Abrahamic God? Just because Muhammed declared that he is an Abrahamic prophet accepted other Abrahamic prophets as prophet?Be sure if Muslims are ready to accept atleast one law, then I have no problem,and if We can call that Muslims adore Abrahamic god,then it is also true like other Monotheist religion.

Let me put it this way: there is a family resemblance among all the Abrahamic religions. The things that are good or true (and actually, some of the bad things too, like polygamy) about Islam have been copied from Judaism and/or Christianity.

 

[tomarin]

So because they are monotheistic like us?And only it make you think and believe that Muslims worship the same God as Christians?Or do you think so because of the claims of some Muslims or SOME teachings of the Qur’an?

I strongly believe in solidarity among monotheists, yes. Why not?

How can you rely on the teachings of a religion that overtly denies basic Christian tenets as well as many doctrines of Judaism?.If their religion grew up in an environment influenced by Christianity and Judaism then they had the better chance than others to embrace the truth,but in reality what happened?Can you please explain it?

The only religion I rely on is Christianity; that is my religion. My allegiance to Christianity doesn’t require me to deny the obvious fact that there are common roots and influences shared by Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Animosity to Islam (or Judaism for that matter) is not an article of the Christian faith.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I strongly believe in solidarity among monotheists, yes. Why not?

The only religion I rely on is Christianity; that is my religion. My allegiance to Christianity doesn’t require me to deny the obvious fact that there are common roots and influences shared by Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Animosity to Islam (or Judaism for that matter) is not an article of the Christian faith.

In what basis are Jews and Muslims reconciled to God for their sins? All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. How are the Jews and Muslims dealing with the sin issue which seperates us from God, sending us to Hell for just punishment?

 

[Booklover]

It matters a lot but this is a separate issue from what you originially claimed, which is that the devil must have inspired Mohammad to write the Koran. When I take your claim seriously by bringing up a serious objection to it, you just side-step the issue by saying Islam is associated with violence (as if that couldn’t be said of many other religions, ours included). It’s a non-sequitur and a red herring.

Muhammad claimed that the Angel Gabriel appeared to him. Do you believe that? I find it ridiculous to state as you have, that because Muhammad believed in monotheism, a demon could not have appeared to him if his claim of being visited by an angel is true. After all, Satan is the greatest deceiver and in Muhammad he could have found the perfect way to spread his errors.

Vickie

 

[guanophore]

As Christians, our only authority is God alone.

Except that He chose to appoint human authority to shepherd His flock, so He is not “alone”. He works through these persons, and holds them accountable for the care of the flock.

The other problem is that, with this idea, the end result is that each man becomes his own authority. All who read the bible with sincerity believe they are being led by the HS who is bearing witness to them in their hearts, even if that leading is opposite to where the HS led previously! Without accepting the authority appointed by God, everyone does what is right in his own eyes.

If you don’t think God is the final authority, then there is not much to discuss. You are still in rebellion with God almighty.

Ahh, but that is not what you claimed is it? Look at your previous post quoted above. You said "God alone’, a concept which contradicts scripture. Who is in rebellion here?

I have one honest comment and concern about the Catholic Faith. If we need Sacred Tradition to properly understand Sacred Scripture, then what source do we have to understand the true meaning and intent of a particular Sacred Tradition? I used to own both the Catholic Catechism AND the Companion to the Catholic Catechism. This thread is so insightful from my perspective.

Sacred Tradition is the revelation of God to the Church. The Church is the custodian of that Revelation. It is preserved from error by God. The catechisms are an effort to make the Teachings of Jesus clear to the present age. They are not considered infallible. It is the Teaching of Jesus, preserved by His power in the Church that is infallible.

I believe all of us are born into this world as children of satan, children of darkness, and citizens of the kingdom of darkness. And by the grace of God alone, we are moved from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Please note that Jesus calls the unbelieving Jews as children of the devil.

This formulation suffers from the error of “total depravity”. On the contrary, the Apostles taught that we are moved from darkness into light when our faith mixes with God’s grace.

Do you believe that the Muslim Faith or the Jewish Faith can reconcile you to God apart from Faith in Christ?

Nothing can reconcile us to God without His grace. His word is clear that some are reconciled to Him who have not known Christ. That does not mean it happens “apart” from Him, as no one can come to the Father but through Him. HOwever, some may be drawn by the Father,and not realize they are coming through Christ. Saving faith is found everywhere, and is not confined to “Christian” religions. Saving faith is a matter of the individual’s heart, not of their religious practice. You yourself have said this on other threads, affirming that the remnant is found in all denominations.

But I believe God has spoken on the topic of the unbelieving Jew. Do you see the Jews as a mission field in which you preach Christ and Him crucified to them? We are talking about the centrality of the Christian Faith right now. Do unbelieving Jews need Jesus Christ to be reconciled to God due to their sins? The Book of Hebrews is a great place to start with these questions.

A new thread would actually be an even better place to start. Please refer to the OP, and try to stay on topic. Derailing threads is against the forum rules.

According to Sacred Scripture, it is impossilbe to adore God or know God as Father apart from Jesus Christ. It is impossible to please God in the flesh. A new birth is necessary to know God, or to be known by God as and adopted child of God, or to please Him.

Are you saying there were no Jews saved, or that none of them knew God, or pleased God? Although we believe that the Second Person of the Trinity has always existed, there were people that were adopted children of God before His incarnation.

How can you adore God apart from Jesus Christ?

The same way Abraham adored God, and the Jews prior to Jesus, and the Pagans, who worshipped “that which they did not know” and what Paul proclaimed to them (the unknown God),

I’m sorry, I’m Protestant.

I am sorry too, but there is an easy fix for that!

 

[robsully]

Hello Booklover/Vickie.

Could you help me understand something.

If Mohammed’s claim that an angel had visited him and gave him the baisis for Islam(a new but not completely different religion from Judaism) is not credible. That it had to be Satan.
Is it not plausible that the vision Paul had ( giving him the basis for Christianity) could be the same?

This IS NOT a criticism of Christianity but a sincere question.

Thank you

 

[guanophore]

Can a Jew be reconciled to God and still reject Jesus as the Christ? Who will save the unbelieving Jew for their sins?

Only if they are invicibly ignorant.

 I think the woman at the well believed that Jesus was the Christ.

Yes. One of the very first female evangelists.

Are you saying that the Catholic Church teaches that Muslims know God apart from faith in the biblical Jesus Christ?

Yes. If any of them do know God, they know Him as sons of Abraham. They don’t know the biblical Christ. If they did, they could not call Him a prophet, since He claimed to be God. In the same way, Pagans know God, when they don’t know Jesus.

 I don' t think you can adore someone if you don't know them.

Of course you can! Abraham believed God, even before God revealed very much of HImself to him. Also there are many OT examples of monotheist peoples and priests (like the priest of Midian, and Melkizedek) that had very little revelation of who He is, yet honored Him as God. As it is clear in Romans, God has given sufficient revelation of Himself through Creation that people who are not personally acquainted can still recognize and honor Him as God.

**There is a mutual enmity between unbelievers and God. **Unbelievers are at war with God and God will ultimately will win the war and crush the rebellion of sinful mankind who continually rebel against Him.

This is Calvin talking.

And that’s why it’s would be extremly difficult for me to be Catholic. Faith in Jesus Christ is essential for peace and reconcilation with God.

It is Catholic that there is no salvation outside Christ (and His One Body, the Church). Some who are saved do not realize who saved them. It does not mean they are saved “apart” from Him. They cannot be. They may not recognize Him, though.

I think we need to consider the need for missions and evangelism with your question. What is the purpose of missions if sinners can be reconciled to God apart from hearing the good news of God?

Because knowing the good news, they have the opportunity to have their election and calling made more sure. Without knowing Jesus, they are feeling around in the dark. Narrow and steep is the way to the Gate.

**God is unknown to those who do not know His Son. **

Paul Addresses the Areopagus

So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.

You posted the answer to your own question. This is why evangelism is important. People may worship God without knowing Him, but God desires much more.
2nd Adam;5871960:

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. - 1 John 5:10

Those of the Islamic Faith, Hinduism, Judaism, and other non-Christian religions are calling God a liar. The wrath of God are on all those who are not united to Christ. They are known by God as the object of His wrath.

No, 2nd, this is not true. Most of them have not even heard anything of the testimony. What they have been taught about Christ is inaccurate, and warped. It would be wrong for us to assume that they have the full testimony of Christ. In order to be an object of His wrath, they must reject Him. How can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? How can they hear without a preacher?

It is virtually impossible to keep all of the Commandments…

This seems to be off topic here, but I want to address this lie wherever it is posted. Jesus does not command us to do things that He does not provide the ability to do. To say that we have to sin is heresy,and an insult to the power of the Grace of God that is shed abroad in our hearts by the HS. This is one of the most damaging fruits that came out of the Reformation.

I’m not sure what you mean by “no fault of their own”? Have all peoples sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; therefore, condemned before God for their sins?

People can follow God to the extent that they respond to the amount of light available. Remember the Christians in the book of Acts who “never even heard that there is a HOly Spirit”? They were faithful to what part of the revelation they had.

Muslims are the children of Abraham through Ishmael. God gave promises regarding Ismael. However, he was not the son of the covenant. God did not say they could not be saved.

God's provision for forgiveness has been provided in Christ.  However, we receive Christ throught faith (trust) in the gospel.

some have not had the opportunity to recieve Him. One Muslim on here told me that Jesus survived the crucifixion and he and his mother travelled to India where they settled down. If a person is brought up being taught this, how can they expect to understand Jesus as the Passover Lamb?

 

[guanophore]

Old Testament Saints are saved by the blood of Christ, correct?

Yes, but that does not mean they knew HIm. Jesus saved Saul, too, but Saul was still saying “who are you, Lord?” He was a passionate follower of God, and still did not recognize Christ.

Somehow, I think you are implying that native Americans will not get what they deserve.

That depends upon the state of their heart. If they do differently than those described in Romans, by recognizing and honoring as God the Creator of all things, then they can trust in His mercy. There are a lot of Native Americans in my part of the country who have been deeply wounded by missionaries and “christians”. They have a loving relationship with their Creator that does non contain the abuse brought here by European “evangelists”. It was not possible for them to recognize Jesus through the actions of those who clainmed to know Him.

 Grace and forgiveness is receiving what you do not deserve.  Do you see my point?

Yes.

If we can be saved from our sins apart from Jesus Christ... then Jesus died in vain. If you are implying that native Americans have been reconciled to God and saved apart from faith in Christ, then Jesus died in vain indeed.

No, 2nd. You misunderstand. Just as there is no salvation outside the Church, so there is no salvation outside of Christ. The fact that people do not recognize the visible for what it is notwithstanding, we are all part of His One Body, the Church. In like manner, all the saved are saved by His Blood, shed on the cross, whether they recognize this fact, or not.

I don’t think early Church Fathers believed that sinners were saved apart from faith in Christ.

No. That is why the Catholic Church does not believe or teach this.

  If you think native Americans are saved because they did not have a chance to believe in Christ... then on what basis are they justified before God?

The same basis that the OT people were saved - by grace, through faith. God’s ,method of salvation has not changed.

God saved all the people that were on Paul’s sinking ship, even though they did not know Him.

God’s provision for forgiveness has been provided in Christ. However, we receive Christ throught faith (trust) in the gospel.

Yes, for those who have heard the gospel. Many, however, have only been exposed to a perversion of it.