Something that has been bothering me for a while now

  • Thread starter Thread starter dzheremi
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hello Dzheremi, thank you for your kind response.
The way each man responded may have been completely different, but does history show many similairities?
The taking up of the sword in the name of God (religion) being one. Compassionate treatment of other religions being another. Just at different times in history.

My observation/question arose from Vickie’s view of Islam and Mohammed. That what can be claimed of one can be claimed of the other.
  1. Saul was correct in his original view of Christianity, but corrupted by Satan posing as Jesus.
  2. An angel did visit Mohammed to pass on an uncorrupted view of God and his Word.
This is NOT a judgement of either Christianity or Islam

Again thank you for your kind response
Unless you can see the difference between the behaviors of St. Paul & Muhammad, there’s no answer I can give you. Others have already responded.

By the way, St. Paul is NOT the founder of Christianity as you seemed to imply in your question to me. That is the Muslim position. Sorry I couldn’t reply earlier, but I’ve been having trouble with the keyboard on the old and weary lapbook computer I’ve been using. It’s been beeping all over the place and going wild printing one character over and over in long rows and I couldn’t type anything. 🤷

Vickie
 
Please read my two Catholic links on my signature to answer your view good question. I am first and foremost a Christian. Thereafeter, I am an Evangelical. And a distant third, my theology is Reformed.
Thank you for sharing, 2nd, but none of what you have posted, including your links, are related to the thread topic. Your evangelistic agenda is going to earn sanctions for you if you cannot curb yourself.
 
Thank you for sharing, 2nd, but none of what you have posted, including your links, are related to the thread topic. Your evangelistic agenda is going to earn sanctions for you if you cannot curb yourself.
I’m just answering this particular question on this thread:
Originally Posted by tomarin
I think you’re barking up the wrong tree. And I don’t know what your denomination’s doctrine of justification has to do with the topic of this thread.
 
No. I think it’s more likely Islam is a creation of men.
If it is a creation of men, how can it bring them closer to the truth, as you stated in another post, to believe in a lie?

It’s not an either/or proposition. Islam could be just a creation of men imitating religious ideas they encountered in contact with Christians and Jews, although some of these ideas got garbled (as in a game of “telephone”).

That’s the way I used to think as well until a read in Magnificat a story of a saint who was going to read a certain passage from the Bible at church, when an “angel” appeared and took the Bible from him and started moving around with it mumbling, then when a real angel appeared, it dropped the Bible and took off. The saint was then given the power to discern the difference between angels and demons masquerading as “angels of light”. It was after I read that, that I started wondering whether that was what happened to Muhammad.

Vickie
 
Throughout my year or so here I have been disabused of a great many preconceived notions regarding religion, both Catholicism and other. But for the first time, starting about a month ago, I’ve actually come to disbelieve in something I previously believed in rather self-evident and hence elemental manner. That is to say, it seemed too obvious to need to be questioned. Given that I’d never even questioned it previously, I’m not quite sure where to go from here, or what it means overall for my faith.

I myself have quoted paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on numerous occasions, and defended the position expressed therein quite strongly. It states:

I no longer believe this. I know, I know, so what, plenty of Catholics on here don’t accept this and not every sentence in the CCC is dogma, so why is this a thread… :confused:

Well, a few things bother me about the implications of this realization:
  1. The CC has clearly taught error here in what can be reasonably deemed to be an official capacity. The implications of this vis-a-vis the veracity of other Catholic doctrines should be obvious.
  2. While it does seem somewhat trivial in a way, the inclusion of such passages says a lot about the philosophy of some within the Church, and a lot of that makes me fairly uncomfortable (to put it diplomatically);
  3. in other ways, however, it is NOT at all trivial. There is no triviality at all in what we believe about God, because the proper worship of God is supposed to be at the heart of everything that we do as Christians and everything that we believe as a Church. For example, we can say that God truly is as He is in the Christian Trinity and we are to worship Him as He has commanded us to in Christianity, or we can be mealy-mouthed in our approach to this dimension of our faith and say that anyone who gets a part of it right (whether that part is in number, or in form, or however else you can think of it) is somehow also to be included on an equal footing with Christians when it comes to the question of who is worshipping what God.
I have always maintained that the Muslims, for their part, get it right in terms of number ONLY (and only superficially so at that), as it is a basic truism of Christianity that there is, in fact, only one God. So, I thought to myself, as there’s only one God to begin with, it stands to reason that anyone who worships God must be worshipping that same God, however uncompletely or incorrectly. I can no longer hold this overly simplistic view, especially in light of the position I have expressed in threads like this one. I believe that the Trinity, and the CHRISTIAN Trinity at that, is the one true God. Not Islam’s Allah or Hinduism’s Vishnu or anything or anyone else. So I cannot, for the sake my own soul, say that these other gods, which are not the eternal and uncreated unity that is the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit, are somehow also my God.

I’m not so much concerned that this will have any practical effect on my relationship with Muslims or any other non-Christian, but unfortunately it and other incidents like it have already had a great effect on my relationship to my own Church. To be blunt: the cognitive dissonance created in the process of trying to make all this work is killing my faith in the Catholic Church.

Were it just about Muslims and whether not they’ll be saved, I probably wouldn’t have taken the time to write any of this. I think it is really symptomatic of some deeper problems. I just don’t really know how to deal with them.

Am the only one who feels this way? Not necessarily about this issue, but…just the Church in general? I don’t want to be a dissident or a heretic. I want to be a good Catholic. I just don’t know what to do.
I believe when a Muslim dies, he goes to hell. Without any doubt in my mind:

1 John 1:2-4 (New International Version)

2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our[a] joy complete.

1 John 2:21-23 (New International Version)

21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

KORAN:

“The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle . . .God is but one God. GOD FORBID THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON!” (4:171)

Those who say: “The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son, preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack . . .” (19:88)

”God forbid that He Himself should beget a son!” (19:29)

“Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom . . .” (17:111)

“God has begotten a son. ‘God forbid! Self-sufficient is He.! (10:68)

“If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I would be the first to worship him.” (43:72-81)
 
But baptism just makes them a member of the Church. What about all of the mortal sins that they don’t get a chance to confess because they don’t have the sacrament of reconciliation?
When I said we (Catholics and Protestants) were reconciled through baptism I meant that without baptism we could not wipe away original sin and receive the Holy Spirit, in fact, as Catholics this is the first (and most important) sacrament we receive for without it we could not receive the other sacraments. We are reconciled (redeemed) through baptism but to continue in that state we must persevere in our faith.
 
What does Christ say about salvation? His answer was simple. Keep the Commandments! If a person does that, according to Christ he is saved. Do Muslims keep these? Do the Jews? Does anybody? I have always believed that those who follow Christ’s example are following Him more closely than many who call themselves “Christian”. I personally try to live my religious life within the context of the Roman Rite. This gives me the guidlines that I need. There are many things that are hard to explain when it comes to faith. I can only try my best. That’s all I believe anyone can do.
Do you believe in prothletising and evangelizing the Holy Trinity? Teaching the world and all in the 4 corners of this earth that Jesus Chris is God and he is risen?
 
I don’t see how you can make sense of this when Muslims (and Jews, for that matter) do not agree. If we are going to talk about the intentions of other people, shouldn’t we at least take what they say into account? Muslims and Jews here and elsewhere have said that they do not worship our God. Jews, for their part, thnk we have made a false God out of a false messiah. And it is only relatively recently, thanks to modern inter-religious dialogue, that Muslims have backed off of their stance that we are “blasphemers” and “associators” automatically destined for hell, and even then it is only as part of their proselytization activities. Read answers from any Imam or watch any of hundreds of Youtube videos on the subject and you’ll see just how Muslims interpret this idea that they worship our God or intend to worship Him. They will probably say they worship the God that we used to worship before we wrongly “elevated” a mere prophet to the level of the Almighty.
I believe Raphinal is correct, moreover what does it matter what Islam/Muslims say about us (when we know their theology is wrong) if your beef is with a certain section of the CCC? Your questioning the authority/authenticity of the Church not Islam here.

p.s. By the way, I found the way you responded to Contarini to be very harsh (he in no way deserved that).
 
I believe when a Muslim dies, he goes to hell. Without any doubt in my mind:
1 John 1:2-4 (New International Version)

2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our[a] joy complete.

1 John 2:21-23 (New International Version)

21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

KORAN:

“The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle . . .God is but one God. GOD FORBID THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON!” (4:171)

Those who say: “The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son, preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack . . .” (19:88)

”God forbid that He Himself should beget a son!” (19:29)

“Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom . . .” (17:111)

“God has begotten a son. ‘God forbid! Self-sufficient is He.! (10:68)

“If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I would be the first to worship him.” (43:72-81)
Well you better doubt because that’s an awful thing to say.
 
If it is a creation of men, how can it bring them closer to the truth, as you stated in another post, to believe in a lie?
Because not everything it teaches is false; there really is a God who created the heavens and earth, and he really wants us to follow the straight and narrow path and to treat others justly and with kindness, and he will reward us in heaven for being faithful to his law. As I said there is a family resemblance between the three Abrahamic faiths that makes Islam “truer” than say, Hinduism or the worship of Zeus – even though Mohammad was a false prophet.
That’s the way I used to think as well until a read in Magnificat a story of a saint who was going to read a certain passage from the Bible at church, when an “angel” appeared and took the Bible from him and started moving around with it mumbling, then when a real angel appeared, it dropped the Bible and took off. The saint was then given the power to discern the difference between angels and demons masquerading as “angels of light”. It was after I read that, that I started wondering whether that was what happened to Muhammad.
When it comes to miracles in other faiths I tend to treat them with scepticism. I’m more inclined to believe that Mohammad was either delusional or had an overactive imagination than that he was visited either by an angel or a demon disguised as an angel.
 
Do you believe in prothletising and evangelizing the Holy Trinity?
No, I do not have a prosthesis, and if I did, I would not find it a cause for boasting.

I also think the Holy Trinity already believes in themselves, and does not need an evangelist.

Why are you here on CAF, firstmode?
 
They worship the God of Abraham and so do we. We understand that the God of Abraham is a Trinity and they do not. Why not? Because they don’t believe in the revelation of God given to us by Christ. Neither do the Jews. But, as Contirini explained, it is the same God we worship–it is just that Muslims cannot understand how God can be three persons with one essence. It makes no sense to them (or to the Jews).

Both the Jews and the Muslims claim we worship three gods, and you can see how they could come to that conclusion. Therefore, to them WE are the ones who are not worshiping the God of Abraham, but a made up entity they cannot accept. That they do not/cannot understand doesn’t mean they are not worshiping God, only that they have another theology about his essence. To us their theology is wrong and ours to them.

We accept Jesus as the Son of God because we believe his word. We believe his word because he rose from the dead. They do not because they do not/cannot/will not accept that Jesus is the Son of God. But, they do believe in the God of Abraham–the God all true worshipers of God believed in before Jesus’ birth. They simply aren’t buying the concept of the Trinity.
I am confused.

The Jews do worship the God of Abraham, the Muslims do worship the God of Abraham. They both claim this. This is fine. They can worship God all the want.

Worship away!

No problem! Keep worshiping God… You guys are stuck on this. Yes, they worship the God of Abraham, but is worship enough to be saved? To ensure your place in heaven with God? Is worship ever enough?

The Jews and Muslims can worship the one true God of Abraham all they want. They will worship and venerate him up until the last day of their lives and then wake up in hell a moment later.

Acts 4:12

…It is by** the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth**, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is " ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.’ 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Romans 10:8-10

8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

1 John 2:21-23

21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichris—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Worship the Father, the God of Abraham all you want, both Jews and Muslims, worship the God of Abraham. Because you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, and do not believe he was raised from the dead, you will not be saved.

This can change at any time though! Accept Jesus as the Lord! Accept that he was raised from the dead! Accept that he is the Son of God! You will be saved! Confess it! I will pray for you!
 
Well you better doubt because that’s an awful thing to say.
These are awful things to say:

KORAN:

“The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle . . .God is but one God. GOD FORBID THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON!” (4:171)

Those who say: “The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son, preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack . . .” (19:88)

”God forbid that He Himself should beget a son!” (19:29)

“Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom . . .” (17:111)

“God has begotten a son. ‘God forbid! Self-sufficient is He.! (10:68)

“If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I would be the first to worship him.” (43:72-81)

By me admitting that I believe they go to hell when they die, it has caused me to evangelize and to put my offerings towards missionaries that evangelize Muslims and Hindus. Because of this belief I am helping bring the Gospel to their corner of the world, helping of the mission of teaching Christ risen!

By you accepting they just go to heaven when they die, how many Muslims have you been putting your time and resources towards to teach them Christ was Crucified and rose from the grave, that Christ is THE LORD? How many Muslims have you not preached to because you felt they were saved by their denial of Jesus as Son of God and Lord?
 
No, I do not have a prosthesis, and if I did, I would not find it a cause for boasting.

I also think the Holy Trinity already believes in themselves, and does not need an evangelist.

Why are you here on CAF, firstmode?
I am here to learn about Catholicism and become better acquainted with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I am sorry I misspelled, stupid right click spell check grabbed the first word. Do you believe in prosthelytizing to people that Chris is THE LORD and RISEN?
 


I’m more inclined to believe that Mohammad was either delusional or had an overactive imagination than that he was visited either by an angel or a demon disguised as an angel.
Well, this statement:

“mohamad was either delusional or had an overactive imagination than that he was visited either by an angel or a demon disguised as an angel.”

**Is what bought islam into this world. **

Delusions of a man
Overactive imagination of a man
Angel visited the man - OR -
Demon disguised as an angel visited the man

An Angel of God would not revise OT & NT Biblical accounts, unless it was a certail fallen angel who likes and loves to twist the truth into “little white lies”.

There were already two Abrahamic religions in existence when mohamad did this.

You had the Jews on one hand and you had the Christians on the other.

Why wasn’t it unacceptable to him since Judaism & Christianity was already there.

There was NO need for a new religion.

No - he had to twist everything from the OT & the NT and make it his own version and this is islam today. How happy is this “fallen angel” today.

**Jesus Christ is Lord,

He is the Beginning and the End

He is the Alpha and the Omega

In the name of the Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit, Amen! **

~ islam is false

~ mohamad is false

~ the koran is false
 
I believe when a Muslim dies, he goes to hell. Without any doubt in my mind
Woah, woah. Let me just make it clear that such ideas are NOT the impetus behind this thread, and I in no way support them. As I’ve written many times, this thread is supposed to be about what is acceptable Christian belief, i.e. is it really the case that “together with us they (Muslims) adore the one, merciful God”. If this is true, what does this mean for those of us who cannot reconcile the God of Islam to the God of the Bible?

This is NOT about whether or not Muslims are “saved” or not.
I believe Raphinal is correct, moreover what does it matter what Islam/Muslims say about us (when we know their theology is wrong) if your beef is with a certain section of the CCC? Your questioning the authority/authenticity of the Church not Islam here.
Because the fact that Islam has vociferously labeled us as polytheists ought to have an impact on this question, don’t you think? Since much is made of the Muslim’s true intention, why can we not look to their words so as to know their true intention? Do you believe that the Qur’an was written as a deliberate lie? Or are they expressing orthodox Islamic theology when they call us “associators”? It would seem to me that they are for the most part going out of their way NOT to worship our God, since they regard Him as false and unworthy of comparison with “Allah”. It’s not a misunderstanding on the part of those who have rejected the orthodox Christian understanding of God; it’s actually them sticking to their theological guns, and expressing what makes them Muslims and not Christians.
p.s. By the way, I found the way you responded to Contarini to be very harsh (he in no way deserved that).
Thank you for vocing your opinion on this matter, but since the conversation did not actually involve you, I am not sure how I am to assuage you. I may or may not have misunderstood Contarini, but based on the rather negative turn that the thread took during my and other posters’ interactions with him while he was arguing his points, I think it best not to revisit any of it in absence of a post from him. I’m not interested in dragging anyone’s name through the mud, much less when they are not present to speak for themselves.
 
tomarin;5878220[:
I acknowledge Protestants as fellow Christians – you have the Bible even if you are not in communion with the Catholic Church. But since you don’t have the sacraments I don’t know how you are justified with God any more than I know how Muslims and Jews are.]
Why, silly,we are reconciled back to God by the death of Jesus on the Cross(He’s still not on it, BTW). And how can you acknowledge “us” as fellow Christians, if you don’t believe we are justified with God:eek:
 
Protestant/Catholic bickering doesn’t really belong in this thread, folks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top