Something that has been bothering me for a while now

[guanophore]

Guanophore you’re being naughty!

You are so right! I was seized by a moment of cynicism.

Jas 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.

Somebody hand me a bridle, quick!

 

[guanophore]

These are awful things to say:

KORAN:

“The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle . . .God is but one God. GOD FORBID THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON!” (4:171)

Those who say: “The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son, preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack . . .” (19:88)

”God forbid that He Himself should beget a son!” (19:29)

“Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom . . .” (17:111)

“God has begotten a son. ‘God forbid! Self-sufficient is He.! (10:68)

“If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I would be the first to worship him.” (43:72-81)

They are ignorant things to say, and most follow them in ignorance. People are not condemned for ignorance, but for rebellion.

By me admitting that I believe they go to hell when they die, it has caused me to evangelize and to put my offerings towards missionaries that evangelize Muslims and Hindus. Because of this belief I am helping bring the Gospel to their corner of the world, helping of the mission of teaching Christ risen!

It is not appropriate for us to judge the eternal state of anyone. That does not have to prevent us from evangelizing.

By you accepting they just go to heaven when they die,

No one here has said this.

how many Muslims have you been putting your time and resources towards to teach them Christ was Crucified and rose from the grave, that Christ is THE LORD? How many Muslims have you not preached to because you felt they were saved by their denial of Jesus as Son of God and Lord?

No one has said that anyone is saved who denies that Jesus is the Son of God. you seem to be very confused about the Apostolic Teaching on these matters.

I am here to learn about Catholicism and become better acquainted with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Good for you!

I respect that.

I am sorry I misspelled, stupid right click spell check grabbed the first word. Do you believe in prosthelytizing to people that Chris is THE LORD and RISEN?

I was just teasing you. I believe that every minute of every day should be us reflecting the risen Lord in our lives, so that all will ask to know more about the hope that is within us.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

At first I had problems with this, but not anymore. I believe that Jews worship the same God we do – both the Jews of the old testament and of today. I think that it would be hard to argue otherwise. They just have the wrong notions about Who and What God is. This shows that just because you have the wrong understanding of God, doesn’t mean that you have the wrong God. Which is good, because none of us come anywhere close to understanding God fully.
I think that maybe we don’t give God enough credit. He works in the world and in the minds of His creation in unexpected ways – even in those who lack His revelation and the fullness of truth. Paul in Acts says to the Athenians that the same “Unknown God” that they worshiped was the one, true, God. How neat is that? How much more could we say that Muslims, who explicitly state that they worship the God of Abraham, worship the true God?

This is somewhat related. Cardinal Newman writes the following in his Essay on the Development of Doctrine, in his chapter on assimilative power:

"“The phenomenon, admitted on all hands, is this:—That great portion of what is generally received as Christian truth is, in its rudiments or in its separate parts, to be found in heathen philosophies and religions. For instance, the doctrine of a Trinity is found both in the East and in the West; so is the ceremony of washing; so is the rite of sacrifice. The doctrine of the Divine Word is Platonic; the doctrine of the Incarnation is Indian; of a divine kingdom is Judaic; of Angels and demons is Magian; the connexion of sin with the body is Gnostic; celibacy is known to Bonze and Talapoin; a sacerdotal order is Egyptian; the idea of a new birth is Chinese and Eleusinian; belief in sacramental virtue is Pythagorean; and honours to the dead are a polytheism. Such is the general nature of the fact before us; Mr. Milman argues from it,—‘These things are in heathenism, therefore they are not Christian:’ we, on the contrary, prefer to say, ‘these things are in Christianity, therefore they are not heathen.’ That is, we prefer to say, and we think that Scripture bears us out in saying, that from the beginning the Moral Governor of the world has scattered the seeds of truth far and wide over its extent; that these have variously taken root, and grown as in the wilderness, wild plants indeed but living; and hence that, as the inferior animals have tokens of an immaterial {381} principle in them, yet have not souls, so the philosophies and religions of men have their life in certain true ideas, though they are not directly divine.”

I used to feel that way all the time. I still do occasionally. I try to give the Church the benefit of the doubt as I struggle with a particular teaching. It’s easier to do now because the Church has proven herself right to me again and again. But I know the sinking feeling of doubt – the “oh man, what if I’m allowing myself to be lead into serious error”. Sometimes I doubt that I have the ability to tell what is really true and really not. It can be hard. What to do? Pray, learn, and press on!

Make it so, number one! Warp 10! Summon Mr. Worf to the bridge immediately! Love the screen name! Our screen names have one thing in common!

 

[tomarin]

~ islam is false

~ mohamad is false

~ the koran is false

That’s all well and good, but my point is that there are degrees of resemblance between Christianity and other religions, and Islam – as wrong as it is in many respects – is closer to Christianity than a lot of other religions. I think there’s a lot of merit to the Church’s approach of recognizing this. It doesn’t mean the Church is endorsing Islam over and above Christianity or that it approves of everything or even most of what Islam teaches.

To take what Vickie said in a previous post, that Islam is false; well, yes, but Buddhism is even falser by contrast. If Islam is a lie (to use her language) then Buddhism is an even greater lie, because Muslims don’t believe in reincarnation, among other things.

Added: Buddhists are ostensibly monotheists too, but I’m not jumping up and down insisting they worship the same god we do because I’m not sure their concept of god isn’t so alien to ours that it defies any attempt at correspondence. There is no “family resemblance” as there is between the Abrahamic faiths.

 

[josie_L]

Because the fact that Islam has vociferously labeled us as polytheists ought to have an impact on this question, don’t you think? Since much is made of the Muslim’s true intention, why can we not look to their words so as to know their true intention? Do you believe that the Qur’an was written as a deliberate lie? Or are they expressing orthodox Islamic theology when they call us “associators”? It would seem to me that they are for the most part going out of their way NOT to worship our God, since they regard Him as false and unworthy of comparison with “Allah”. It’s not a misunderstanding on the part of those who have rejected the orthodox Christian understanding of God; it’s actually them sticking to their theological guns, and expressing what makes them Muslims and not Christians.

Try to look at it through God’s perspective, what do you think He would do with a people who profess to be following Him (the God of Abraham) but have a muddled understanding about him (through no fault of their own) because Mohammed taught error (possibly lies) right from the start? Do you think that He would ignore them because they do not correctly identify him as we do (Jews outrightly reject/ed Jesus/Messiah although they unlike the Muslims knew/know the true Word of God)? They may believe we are wrong (which is fine by me) but the truth of the matter lies that whatever misconceptions they have of God they intended/intend to worship Him as the God of Abraham.

Thank you for vocing your opinion on this matter, but since the conversation did not actually involve you, I am not sure how I am to assuage you. I may or may not have misunderstood Contarini, but based on the rather negative turn that the thread took during my and other posters’ interactions with him while he was arguing his points, I think it best not to revisit any of it in absence of a post from him. I’m not interested in dragging anyone’s name through the mud, much less when they are not present to speak for themselves.

I too do not wish to drag anyone’s name in the mud, hence the reason I said what I said.

 

[firstmode]

Try to look at it through God’s perspective, what do you think He would do with a people who profess to be following Him (the God of Abraham) but have a muddled understanding about him (through no fault of their own) because Mohammed taught error (possibly lies) right from the start? Do you think that He would ignore them because they do not correctly identify him as we do (Jews outrightly reject/ed Jesus/Messiah although they unlike the Muslims knew/know the true Word of God)? They may believe we are wrong (which is fine by me) but the truth of the matter lies that whatever misconceptions they have of God they intended/intend to worship Him as the God of Abraham.

I too do not wish to drag anyone’s name in the mud, hence the reason I said what I said.

But how can they worship God if they do not worship the Lord Jesus Christ? How can they honor the Father by denying the Son?

Going out of your way to deny the Son is blasphemy and apostacy. Without the Son you CANNOT have the Father. A person can worship the Father all they want, they do not have him without the Son. There is no worship of the Father without the Son.

 

[sedonaman]

…
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” …

I have struggled with this also. I don’t know if this point has been made already, as I just came across this thread, but you will notice that the CCC statement is about Muslims, and not Islam. This dawned on me when I considered that the Church condemned all sorts of heresies so why does it single out Islam for special recognition? Well, apparently it doesn’t because it avoids the issue, but it does state in a roundabout way that a merciful God would recognize those who strive to do good but through no fault of their own were unable to know Christ.

I think this lack of clarity between Islam and Muslims is common in most discussions of Islam. Example: How many times have we seen questions like “Why is Islam bad?” followed by a response like, “I don’t hate Muslims.” ?

In any event, why is it silent on other Christian religions?

 

[dzheremi]

That’s all fine and well, Sedonaman, but it doesn’t go very far in explaining how it is that we are “together with Muslims” or how we worship the same God.

 

[josie_L]

These are awful things to say:

KORAN:

“The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle . . .God is but one God. GOD FORBID THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON!” (4:171)

Those who say: “The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son, preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack . . .” (19:88)

”God forbid that He Himself should beget a son!” (19:29)

“Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom . . .” (17:111)

“God has begotten a son. ‘God forbid! Self-sufficient is He.! (10:68)

“If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I would be the first to worship him.” (43:72-81)

By me admitting that I believe they go to hell when they die, it has caused me to evangelize and to put my offerings towards missionaries that evangelize Muslims and Hindus. Because of this belief I am helping bring the Gospel to their corner of the world, helping of the mission of teaching Christ risen!

By you accepting they just go to heaven when they die, how many Muslims have you been putting your time and resources towards to teach them Christ was Crucified and rose from the grave, that Christ is THE LORD? How many Muslims have you not preached to because you felt they were saved by their denial of Jesus as Son of God and Lord?

You can evangelize just as Jesus commissioned but you have no right (apart from God) to say they are going to HELL.

 

[josie_L]

But how can they worship God if they do not worship the Lord Jesus Christ? How can they honor the Father by denying the Son?

Going out of your way to deny the Son is blasphemy and apostacy. Without the Son you CANNOT have the Father. A person can worship the Father all they want, they do not have him without the Son. There is no worship of the Father without the Son.

What part of they don’t know any better (ignorance) don’t you understand?

p.s. Then Jews will go to Hell as well for they worship the father without the Son (a point Contarini made a couple of times already).

Note: I do not believe Jews are going to Hell.

 

[kalt]

That’s the main point I’ve been addressing all along. Let’s go in order of the OP:
First, Dzheremi says he doesn’t believe CCC ¶ 841, so I’ve tried to point out why it’s worthy of belief. Over the course of this thread, it’s become obvious that Dzheremi’s difficulty with ¶ 841 lies, not in the Muslims being included in the Creator’s plan (since, obviously, everything is included in His plan), or in the fact that the Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham, or in the fact that God is one, is merciful, and will be mankind’s judge on the last day; rather, Dzheremi’s sole difficulty lies in the statement “together with us they adore the one, merciful God.” So I’m trying to show that this is really a small statement and not at all a theological concession: they adore God. That’s all. It doesn’t say they’re right about anything else; it just says that they adore God.

Next, Dzheremi makes three conclusions based on his disbelief of ¶ 841, and I’ve tried to show why those conclusions are incorrect.

This conclusion again requires me to address the fact that the Church has not taught error – which means that the rest of this conclusion does not follow.

I’m sure there are quite a few people in the Church – I assume Dzheremi is referring to parishioners and perhaps a few priests, rather than the Magisterium as a whole – who would like to live and let live; I am sure there are quite a few Catholics who erroneously believe that any path to God is equally valid. I can easily see how Dzheremi might be uncomfortable with such beliefs. But stating “Muslims adore God” is not the same thing as saying “all beliefs are equally valid.”

This passage assumes – incorrectly – that “anyone who gets a part of it right (whether that part is in number, or in form, or however else you can think of it) is somehow also to be included on an equal footing with Christians.” CCC ¶ 841 doesn’t say that. It only says they adore God – not that they understand Him correctly, not that they are somehow equal to Christians, not that they are saved, or what have you.

Excellent response. If D doesn’t get it after reading this response, I think he should take it to his priest. You’ve addressed D’s objections clearly, and there is no reason that D can’t understand these simple answers. If D’s not getting it, there is more blocking his understanding than not having it explained to him. Prejudice and hate (maybe not viseral, but hatred just the same) are possible reasons for his refusal to accept that the Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians. After your very clear response (and many more like it by others in this thread), only D’s unwillingness to accept that Muslims worship (adore) the same God is preventing him from undestanding. His mind is closed to the obvious because prejudice or hatred or something else has blinded him. The truth of the teaching is obvious. He’s refusing to see it.

 

[dzheremi]

Woah, woah there, Captain Assumealot. You are free to maintain that I am wrong and you and Godfollower are right, but where exactly do you get off accusing me of “prejudice and hatred” towards Muslims? This is kind of beyond the pale of rational disagreement.

If I hated Muslims so much, why would I have just voluntarily spent a year of my life learning Arabic from them, and nearly every day of the last two years interacting with them, making friends with them, tutoring them in English, and living in an apartment complex with at least a dozen of them? Why would I have spent an entire summer 8 years ago traveling around the USA with a Muslim friend of mine, sleeping in the same car, eating and drinking the same food, etc.? Why would I defend Islam on these boards as I have done several times when people have posted about how Allah is a pagan moon god or how Islam is responsible for honor killings? Are these the sorts of things that someone who hates Muslims would do? You clearly have no idea about who I am or how I live, so why not leave the personal attacks and unsolicited psychoanalysis to yourself?

As I’ve stated at least once before in this thread (in my reply to Camerong), this thread is not motivated by hatred of Muslims. Believe me, I was a lot happier when I still believed that we all worship the same God. I wish I could regain that sort of understanding. In fact, that’s why I started this thread. I wanted to find some way to harmonize the truth of the Christian belief with this idea that, somehow, Muslims worship the same God as we do.

For the record, I don’t think CCC 841 provides enough exposition either way to back up any sort of claim of that magnitude (I suspect this is why most people who have responded in defense of this idea focus on what the passage doesn’t say, because it doesn’t say a lot). So, no, the truth of the teaching is not “obvious” to me, I’m sorry to say. It seems rather ambiguous, and I have to side with another poster to this thread and openly wonder why it is in the CCC at all. The CCC would stand and be no worse for the wear if the “together with us they adore the one, merciful God” line were taken out.

 

[jlhargus]

Woah, woah there, Captain Assumealot. You are free to maintain that I am wrong and you and Godfollower are right, but where exactly do you get off accusing me of “prejudice and hatred” towards Muslims? This is kind of beyond the pale of rational disagreement.

If I hated Muslims so much, why would I have just voluntarily spent a year of my life learning Arabic from them, and nearly every day of the last two years interacting with them, making friends with them, tutoring them in English, and living in an apartment complex with at least a dozen of them? Why would I have spent an entire summer 8 years ago traveling around the USA with a Muslim friend of mine, sleeping in the same car, eating and drinking the same food, etc.? Why would I defend Islam on these boards as I have done several times when people have posted about how Allah is a pagan moon god or how Islam is responsible for honor killings?

JL: if you don’t believe Muslims worship the same True Creator God that Catholics worship and you don’t believe they worship a moon god. Then what god do you think they really worship? Or do you think they worship the True Creator God and Catholics worship a false god?

 

[kalt]

Woah, woah there, Captain Assumealot. You are free to maintain that I am wrong and you and Godfollower are right, but where exactly do you get off accusing me of “prejudice and hatred” towards Muslims? This is kind of beyond the pale of rational disagreement.

If I hated Muslims so much, why would I have just voluntarily spent a year of my life learning Arabic from them, and nearly every day of the last two years interacting with them, making friends with them, tutoring them in English, and living in an apartment complex with at least a dozen of them? Why would I have spent an entire summer 8 years ago traveling around the USA with a Muslim friend of mine, sleeping in the same car, eating and drinking the same food, etc.? Why would I defend Islam on these boards as I have done several times when people have posted about how Allah is a pagan moon god or how Islam is responsible for honor killings? Are these the sorts of things that someone who hates Muslims would do? You clearly have no idea about who I am or how I live, so why not leave the personal attacks and unsolicited psychoanalysis to yourself?

As I’ve stated at least once before in this thread (in my reply to Camerong), this thread is not motivated by hatred of Muslims. Believe me, I was a lot happier when I still believed that we all worship the same God. I wish I could regain that sort of understanding. In fact, that’s why I started this thread. I wanted to find some way to harmonize the truth of the Christian belief with this idea that, somehow, Muslims worship the same God as we do.

For the record, I don’t think CCC 841 provides enough exposition either way to back up any sort of claim of that magnitude (I suspect this is why most people who have responded in defense of this idea focus on what the passage doesn’t say, because it doesn’t say a lot). So, no, the truth of the teaching is not “obvious” to me, I’m sorry to say. It seems rather ambiguous, and I have to side with another poster to this thread and openly wonder why it is in the CCC at all. The CCC would stand and be no worse for the wear if the “together with us they adore the one, merciful God” line were taken out./quote]

Because you don’t agree with that teaching. There’s nothing difficult to understand in that statement.

Non-Catholic Christians worship the same god that Catholics do, and yet they aren’t in lock-step with the CC. Many of them disagree with Marian doctrines and the correct interpretation of the creed, besides. They don’t believe in the Sacraments. There are many fundamental and important ways that non-Catholic Christians don’t agree with Catholic teaching. So what if the Muslims don’t agree with Catholic teaching on God? The Jews don’t, either, and yet you’re not saying that they are worshiping a different god. Why not? They don’t agree that Jesus is God, so by what you said in your first post, they are worshipping a different god, too.

"I have a “fill in the blank” friend isn’t a defense against prejudice. That’s the old “decent Jew” thing. Most jews were bad, but many knew a “decent Jew” or two.

All the teaching is saying is that Islam shares a god with Judaism and Christianity. It doesn’t say that they are correct in all of their beliefs about god. It also doesn’t say that other Christians are correct in all of their beliefs, so why be bothered that the CCC doesn’t elaborate on Islam’s beliefs?

The CCC is about what we believe. It’s not a commentary on what others believe. And it’s not a comparison between what we believe and what other people believe.

The CCC simply states the relationship between Catholicism and other religions, and what the CC believes (knows) about Islam–that Muslims worship the same god we and Jews do. That’s it. It’s that simple.

You refuse to believe that they worship the same god, but you haven’t provided a good reason for that. You say that they don’t because they don’t believe in the trinity. Jews also don’t believe in the trinity. Religions that don’t understand that Jesus is God may, nonetheless, worship the God of Abraham. Islam is one of those religions.

 

[dzheremi]

JL: if you don’t believe Muslims worship the same True Creator God that Catholics worship and you don’t believe they worship a moon god. Then what god do you think they really worship? Or do you think they worship the True Creator God and Catholics worship a false god?

What does that matter? This thread is about what is proper belief within the context of Christianity. Certainly if Muslims believe that we worship the same God, that’s fine so long as it expresses the truth of orthodox Islamic thought, but that still doesn’t mean that it is healthy for me as a Christian to affirm it.

I don’t see why it is important for me to take a position as to who or what Muslims worship. I am not a Muslim. They certainly don’t care what I or any other Christian would have to say about who or what they worship.

 

[dzheremi]

Because you don’t agree with that teaching. There’s nothing difficult to understand in that statement.

It is ambiguous, as I’ve pointed to before. “Together with us” how? No one seems to know. In some sort of mystical way I can’t possibly understand, but I’m sure being bigoted for trying, aren’t I? Even as I’ve asked that very question (How exactly are Muslims “together with us”?), you have turned it around to say that I’m willfully ignoring or dismissing the “truth” of the teaching that I am openly admitting I don’t understand. You say this is because I’m “prejudiced” and full of hatred. Well, thanks for your help, but I’m going to ignore you after this post. I don’t want help from someone who can’t help without also denigrating me.

Non-Catholic Christians worship the same god that Catholics do, and yet they aren’t in lock-step with the CC. Many of them disagree with Marian doctrines and the correct interpretation of the creed, besides. They don’t believe in the Sacraments. There are many fundamental and important ways that non-Catholic Christians don’t agree with Catholic teaching.

What does this have to do with anything? This thread does not address Protestants or Orthodox (though I’m glad they’ve posted here).

So what if the Muslims don’t agree with Catholic teaching on God?

Yeah, you’re right…it’s only the fundamental belief that defines us as Christians…so what…who cares…

The Jews don’t, either, and yet you’re not saying that they are worshiping a different god. Why not? They don’t agree that Jesus is God, so by what you said in your first post, they are worshipping a different god, too.

Another group I’m not talking about here. I’ve been over the initial post several times with Contarini and others, and recognized its deficiencies. I’ve tried to clarify what I was really meaning to say. I don’t know what more I can do.

"I have a “fill in the blank” friend isn’t a defense against prejudice. That’s the old “decent Jew” thing. Most jews were bad, but many knew a “decent Jew” or two.

Well, how else am I supposed to show you that you’ve assumed something about me that is not true? It’s not as simple as having a “Muslim friend”, yet helping and loving and protecting the reputation of Muslims is not something that someone who hates Muslims would do, don’t you think? I guess I can’t convince you that you’re way off-base here, but that’s fine. I know where I stand and what my convictions are and no amount of name-calling from you or anyone else will change that.

All the teaching is saying is that Islam shares a god with Judaism and Christianity. It doesn’t say that they are correct in all of their beliefs about god. It also doesn’t say that other Christians are correct in all of their beliefs, so why be bothered that the CCC doesn’t elaborate on Islam’s beliefs?

Because if I’m supposed to believe that this is true, I’d like to know why. Not just “together with us they adore the one, merciful God”. I don’t know how they are together with us. They sure don’t seem to be. I don’t see why their claim to the God of Abraham (which seems to be restricted to proselyzation activities or an exercise in self-delusion because without such a claim their religion begins to look an awful lot like the collection of heresies that it can be argued to be) should be accepted by a Christian. As I’m sure you’d say applies to me, people can claim something earnestly and still be wrong.

 

[kalt]

What does that matter? This thread is about what is proper belief within the context of Christianity. Certainly if Muslims believe that we worship the same God, that’s fine so long as it expresses the truth of orthodox Islamic thought, but that still doesn’t mean that it is healthy for me as a Christian to affirm it.

I don’t see why it is important for me to take a position as to who or what Muslims worship. I am not a Muslim. They certainly don’t care what I or any other Christian would have to say about who or what they worship.

And yet you have taken a postion on the question. You’re the one who started this thread!

 

[kalt]

It is ambiguous, as I’ve pointed to before. “Together with us” how? No one seems to know. In some sort of mystical way I can’t possibly understand, but I’m sure being bigoted for trying, aren’t I? Even as I’ve asked that very question (How exactly are Muslims “together with us”?), you have turned it around to say that I’m willfully ignoring or dismissing the “truth” of the teaching that I am openly admitting I don’t understand. You say this is because I’m “prejudiced” and full of hatred. Well, thanks for your help, but I’m going to ignore you after this post. I don’t want help from someone who can’t help without also denigrating me.

What does this have to do with anything? This thread does not address Protestants or Orthodox (though I’m glad they’ve posted here).

Yeah, you’re right…it’s only the fundamental belief that defines us as Christians…so what…who cares…

Another group I’m not talking about here. I’ve been over the initial post several times with Contarini and others, and recognized its deficiencies. I’ve tried to clarify what I was really meaning to say. I don’t know what more I can do.

Well, how else am I supposed to show you that you’ve assumed something about me that is not true? It’s not as simple as having a “Muslim friend”, yet helping and loving and protecting the reputation of Muslims is not something that someone who hates Muslims would do, don’t you think? I guess I can’t convince you that you’re way off-base here, but that’s fine. I know where I stand and what my convictions are and no amount of name-calling from you or anyone else will change that.

Because if I’m supposed to believe that this is true, I’d like to know why. Not just “together with us they adore the one, merciful God”. I don’t know how they are together with us. They sure don’t seem to be. I don’t see why their claim to the God of Abraham (which seems to be restricted to proselyzation activities or an exercise in self-delusion because without such a claim their religion begins to look an awful lot like the collection of heresies that it can be argued to be) should be accepted by a Christian. As I’m sure you’d say applies to me, people can claim something earnestly and still be wrong.

You need to reread my post. My comments on prejudice were as follows.

“Prejudice and hate (maybe not viseral, but hatred just the same) are possible reasons for his refusal to accept that the Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians.”

My comment about your answer to this is that, “I have a friend”, is a non-response. My comments no way state that you are, in fact, prejudiced against Islam–they merely point out that it is a possibility and that your response was inadequate, as “I have a friend” means nothing.

Of course you aren’t required to respond at all, since there was no accusation in the first place. But your posts on the topic suggest that you are prejudiced against Islam. You seem fixated on the differences between Catholicism and Islam, but not between other religions and Catholicism. Why single out Islam, if you don’t have something against it? And you seem to want to dismiss the fact that other religions also don’t agree 100% with Catholicism.

The CCC doesn’t elaborate on how Jews are “with us” or how Baptists are “with us”, either. You just happen to agree that they worship the same God.

FWIW, I think that knowing that the God of Abraham is God is about all that Islam has right. No matter what other error Islam has fallen into is irrelevant to the question, though. If they believe in the God of Abraham, they are worshiping the same God.

Muslims believe that the rest of us (Jews and Christians) have messed things up. They obviously don’t believe in a different God. They believe in God and that they are correcting errors that the rest of us have made. They believe they have it right.

Like you said, they can believe what they want–doesn’t make it true. But what isn’t true? Their particular interpretation? Or that they are worshipping the God of Abraham?

It’s clear that they are worshipping the God of Abraham, though their interpretation is full of errors.

 

[jlhargus]

JL: if you don’t believe Muslims worship the same True Creator God that Catholics worship and you don’t believe they worship a moon god. Then what god do you think they really worship? Or do you think they worship the True Creator God and Catholics worship a false god?

What does that matter? This thread is about what is proper belief within the context of Christianity. Certainly if Muslims believe that we worship the same God, that’s fine so long as it expresses the truth of orthodox Islamic thought, but that still doesn’t mean that it is healthy for me as a Christian to affirm it.

I don’t see why it is important for me to take a position as to who or what Muslims worship. I am not a Muslim. They certainly don’t care what I or any other Christian would have to say about who or what they worship.

JL: If it isn’t important then what is your problem with the CCC?

It is ambiguous, as I’ve pointed to before. “Together with us” how? No one seems to know. In some sort of mystical way I can’t possibly understand, but I’m sure being bigoted for trying, aren’t I? Even as I’ve asked that very question (How exactly are Muslims “together with us”?), you have turned it around to say that I’m willfully ignoring or dismissing the “truth” of the teaching that I am openly admitting I don’t understand. You say this is because I’m “prejudiced” and full of hatred. Well, thanks for your help, but I’m going to ignore you after this post. I don’t want help from someone who can’t help without also denigrating me.

JL: “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these PROFESS to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

ALONG WITH US Muslims ADORE THE ONE GOD as also ALONG WITH US so do Jews and Protestants. Are Muslims AMONGST those whom ACKNOWLEDGE THE CREATOR? Do Muslim’s profess FAITH in the God of Abraham?

 

[dzheremi]

JL: If it isn’t important then what is your problem with the CCC?

My problem with CCC 841 is that it says that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. I don’t know that I can agree with that in good conscience. I’m trying to see how or why this is claimed. I’m not trying to see what Muslims might be worshipping if not the God of Abraham.

JL: “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these PROFESS to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I’ve been through CCC 841 line by line (including why I think this emphasis on “profess” is not good), so I have little to add to my previous points about it.

ALONG WITH US Muslims ADORE THE ONE GOD as also ALONG WITH US so do Jews and Protestants. Are Muslims AMONGST those whom ACKNOWLEDGE THE CREATOR? Do Muslim’s profess FAITH in the God of Abraham?

I realize that this is how the text is to be read. I’m not having trouble comprehending how it is supposed to be understood; I’m having trouble seeing why this understanding is correct or preferable to another understanding that says, for example, that Muslims may TRY to worship the God of Abraham (sincerely believing that this is what they are doing) but are in fact doing something else, perhaps even by no fault of their own (allowing for “invincible ignorance”, if you will).