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Thomas54
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My apologies Gorgias!!! I was commenting on Hodos response.
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Gorgias
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I’ll admit, it’s hyperbole. But, if you think hard about what folks are complaining about, in the difference between the music found in a typical Catholic Mass and the music found in a non-denominational service, I think you’d be hard-pressed to describe the differences in a way other than “not pleasant to listen to” – in other words, not entertaining.
Note that this isn’t an invalid complaint. It’s just a different context than the type of music found in Catholic liturgy (as well as in other denominations’ liturgies, but not all).
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Dan_Defender
Guest
My advice is be a good example to your grandchildren and be patient. The time will come when they start asking questions and discern for themselves. At one point one of my nieces asked me point blank: in one sentence what is the biggest argument against my parents’ church? I said: they cannot trace back their belief system to Jesus and the Apostles. She spent the next 2 weeks researching in the Internet and concluded uncle Dan is right and her parents are wrong. Of course her parents made a big fuss but she was clear she learned the truth on her own, my sentence was just a trigger.
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ATraveller
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That depends. Not all Presbyterian congregations employ contemporary worship music or like the flashiness of some “non-denominational” ones. A minority of Presbyterians only use psalms unaccompanied by music. No hymns or musical instruments.
The OP never mentioned the type of service or at least I didn’t see it.
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Thomas54
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REPLY # 1: This reply should appear as three or possibly four posts as I exceeded the character limit by quite a bit. It is not directed at any one person. It is just my thoughts and possibly something that may give strength to some people. PLEASE POST ANY COMMENTS AFTER THE FINAL POST
I’m going to chime in here even though were straying quite a bit from my original post. The Catholic Church is the only church that can claim Apostolic Succession, PERIOD. That is enough for me and I find great comfort in that.
Although I can find some solace in the fact that my son and his family are attending a Christian church, to me it is like an old, wise deacon friend of mine that passed away five years ago said, “The difference between being Catholic and Protestant is like the difference between riding in a Cadillac or a Pinto. Both cars will get you to your destination, but which one would you rather ride in?” God, I wish he was still alive to talk to me.
Another thing I remember him telling me was that when you dig deep into Vatican II, you’ll realize that it was full of good intentions. He said that the whole ecumenical idea of opening up to other Christian faiths in order to bring them back into the fold, hasn’t worked. He believed that a new council should be called to address this issue and to address the immorality that has invaded the priesthood. I would agree on both issues.
In remberance of him, I’d like to tell all that care to read further about him.
I met Deacon Jordan when I came back to the Holy Catholic Church in
1980. I had left the church, as many do, after 12 years of Catholic schooling and thinking that I knew everthing. Obviously, at the age of 18, I didn’t.
Deacon Jordan was a tall, robust, healthy looking man in his early 50’s, with a smile that radiated his love for his Catholic faith. You could not meet a nicer, friendlier, more compassionate, learned man if you traveled the entire earth and had a time machine to boot.
CONTINUED BELOW
I’m going to chime in here even though were straying quite a bit from my original post. The Catholic Church is the only church that can claim Apostolic Succession, PERIOD. That is enough for me and I find great comfort in that.
Although I can find some solace in the fact that my son and his family are attending a Christian church, to me it is like an old, wise deacon friend of mine that passed away five years ago said, “The difference between being Catholic and Protestant is like the difference between riding in a Cadillac or a Pinto. Both cars will get you to your destination, but which one would you rather ride in?” God, I wish he was still alive to talk to me.
Another thing I remember him telling me was that when you dig deep into Vatican II, you’ll realize that it was full of good intentions. He said that the whole ecumenical idea of opening up to other Christian faiths in order to bring them back into the fold, hasn’t worked. He believed that a new council should be called to address this issue and to address the immorality that has invaded the priesthood. I would agree on both issues.
In remberance of him, I’d like to tell all that care to read further about him.
I met Deacon Jordan when I came back to the Holy Catholic Church in
1980. I had left the church, as many do, after 12 years of Catholic schooling and thinking that I knew everthing. Obviously, at the age of 18, I didn’t.
Deacon Jordan was a tall, robust, healthy looking man in his early 50’s, with a smile that radiated his love for his Catholic faith. You could not meet a nicer, friendlier, more compassionate, learned man if you traveled the entire earth and had a time machine to boot.
CONTINUED BELOW
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Thomas54
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NUMBER 2
I knew Deacon Jordan for over 30 years and I knew that he was a Marine only because he flew the USMC flag every day on his tall flagpole, just below our American Flag. He loved God, his wife, his 9 children and his country. I can guarantee you that he would have never kneeled for the Star Spangled Banner.
Since I had been in the US Air Force, I tried talking to him one day about his time in the Marines, but I could tell that he didn’t want to go there, so I never brought it up again.
Fast Forward 30+ years ——— Deacon Jordan was now in his late 80’s and his once strong, marine body was succumbing to old age. He was as deaf as a post and he didn’t like wearing his hearing aids. Going out to dinner with him was challenging, but always enjoyable.
A few months before he passed, I was out to dinner with him and he started talking about his childhood, his children, and his wife that had passed. I was starting to get the feeling that this conversation was with a man who knew that he did not have much longer to live.
The conversation was going really well and then Deacon Jordan surprised me by bringing up my asking him, years ago, what he did in the Marines. Jordan said that he had enlisted in the Marines at the age of 17, the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor and that he wanted to defend his country. I asked him if he was scared and he said “Why would I be scared? The Lord was going with me.”
CONTINUED IN NUMBER 3 below
I knew Deacon Jordan for over 30 years and I knew that he was a Marine only because he flew the USMC flag every day on his tall flagpole, just below our American Flag. He loved God, his wife, his 9 children and his country. I can guarantee you that he would have never kneeled for the Star Spangled Banner.
Since I had been in the US Air Force, I tried talking to him one day about his time in the Marines, but I could tell that he didn’t want to go there, so I never brought it up again.
Fast Forward 30+ years ——— Deacon Jordan was now in his late 80’s and his once strong, marine body was succumbing to old age. He was as deaf as a post and he didn’t like wearing his hearing aids. Going out to dinner with him was challenging, but always enjoyable.
A few months before he passed, I was out to dinner with him and he started talking about his childhood, his children, and his wife that had passed. I was starting to get the feeling that this conversation was with a man who knew that he did not have much longer to live.
The conversation was going really well and then Deacon Jordan surprised me by bringing up my asking him, years ago, what he did in the Marines. Jordan said that he had enlisted in the Marines at the age of 17, the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor and that he wanted to defend his country. I asked him if he was scared and he said “Why would I be scared? The Lord was going with me.”
CONTINUED IN NUMBER 3 below
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Thomas54
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CONTINUED FROM #2 ABOVE
[GRAPHIC DETAIL ALERT — SKIP TO THE LAST POSTFIF YOU WISH]
After a short basic training, Deacon Jordan said that he & thousands of other Marines were on transport ships to Pearl Harbor. As they were nearing Pearl Harbor, a ship that was pulling a munitions barge came very close to their ship. The next thing they knew, the barge blew up. His eardrums blew out from the blast, but he was the lucky one that God was looking over as no shrapnel hit him. He was talking to his fellow marine buddy that he had befriended in basic training when the blast occurred. His friend that he was talking with was hit by a large piece of shrapnel and his head and upper chest were separated [what an introduction to the carnage of war!!!]. He said that he saw his friend laying there in two pieces looking at him and there was nothing that he could do. He said that his area was hit the hardest and all he could see were body parts & men dead & dying. He said that he was dazed from the shock blast and he couldn’t hear the screams because of the pain in his ears. [Remember, he had turned 17 just a few months before. ]
After a couple of months in the hospital, Jordan was asked if he wanted to be discharged as his hearing was not very good. He said that he told the doctor “HELL NO, I’M A MARINE!!! I’M GOING BACK TO MY UNIT.”
Over his next few years, Deacon Jordan told me that he was in some terrible battles fighting against the Japanese in the South Pacific and that he saw things that he could never forget. He saw friends die and he converted many non-believers to Catholicism. I asked him if there are any atheists in fox holes and he said “NONE.”
One last thing that happened to Deacon Jordan & I’ll stop there. Deacon Jordan said that he and another marine were guarding a dozen Japanese prisoners in a makeshift prison cell made out of wire & poles. He said that every day a Sergeant would come by and level his machine gun at the prisoners and pretended that he was mowing them down and walk away laughing. One day, the sergeant came in, and as usual, walked up to the cage. This time he put his sub-machine gun on full automatic and killed every single prisoner right in front of Jordan and the other Marine. This time he said that he heard the screams.
Deacon Jordan told me that they put the sergeant in the brig, he had a short hearing and they sent him back into action. He told me that he was able to talk to the sergeant while he was in custody. When hevasked the sergeant why he killed the prisoners, the sergeant said that the Japs do worse to American soldiers in their POW camps (they did).
CONTINUED IN POST # 4
[GRAPHIC DETAIL ALERT — SKIP TO THE LAST POSTFIF YOU WISH]
After a short basic training, Deacon Jordan said that he & thousands of other Marines were on transport ships to Pearl Harbor. As they were nearing Pearl Harbor, a ship that was pulling a munitions barge came very close to their ship. The next thing they knew, the barge blew up. His eardrums blew out from the blast, but he was the lucky one that God was looking over as no shrapnel hit him. He was talking to his fellow marine buddy that he had befriended in basic training when the blast occurred. His friend that he was talking with was hit by a large piece of shrapnel and his head and upper chest were separated [what an introduction to the carnage of war!!!]. He said that he saw his friend laying there in two pieces looking at him and there was nothing that he could do. He said that his area was hit the hardest and all he could see were body parts & men dead & dying. He said that he was dazed from the shock blast and he couldn’t hear the screams because of the pain in his ears. [Remember, he had turned 17 just a few months before. ]
After a couple of months in the hospital, Jordan was asked if he wanted to be discharged as his hearing was not very good. He said that he told the doctor “HELL NO, I’M A MARINE!!! I’M GOING BACK TO MY UNIT.”
Over his next few years, Deacon Jordan told me that he was in some terrible battles fighting against the Japanese in the South Pacific and that he saw things that he could never forget. He saw friends die and he converted many non-believers to Catholicism. I asked him if there are any atheists in fox holes and he said “NONE.”
One last thing that happened to Deacon Jordan & I’ll stop there. Deacon Jordan said that he and another marine were guarding a dozen Japanese prisoners in a makeshift prison cell made out of wire & poles. He said that every day a Sergeant would come by and level his machine gun at the prisoners and pretended that he was mowing them down and walk away laughing. One day, the sergeant came in, and as usual, walked up to the cage. This time he put his sub-machine gun on full automatic and killed every single prisoner right in front of Jordan and the other Marine. This time he said that he heard the screams.
Deacon Jordan told me that they put the sergeant in the brig, he had a short hearing and they sent him back into action. He told me that he was able to talk to the sergeant while he was in custody. When hevasked the sergeant why he killed the prisoners, the sergeant said that the Japs do worse to American soldiers in their POW camps (they did).
CONTINUED IN POST # 4
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Thomas54
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POST #4
I then asked Deacon Jordan if he ever had any nightmares or any kind of anxiety attacks from what he saw in the South Pacific. He said that he did occasionally, but that war was hell & that he found that out for himself. Then I asked him if he wanted me to take him by the local VA hospital to talk to someone. He said he wouldn’t want to waste their time as he didn’t have that much longer to live and that no amount of talking would ever erase what he saw in the South Pacific.
I’ve done quite a bit a reading about PTSD and while I’m not a psychologist, I would think that Jordan would’ve benefited from talking to someone. FWIW, he told me that I was the only one that he had ever told his Marine experiences to. He protected his family from the horrors of war and the memories. After Deacon Jordan passed, I asked his oldest son if his dad ever talked about his time in the South Pacific and his son said that he never would talk about it. As I’m sitting here crying while I’m putting Deacon Jordan’s story in writing, I feel privileged that he thought I was a good enough friend and worthy of him sharing it with me.
Outwardly Jordan was the man I knew. Inwardly, I’m sure that he had to deal with the demons of war. Like most soldiers, and I’m one myself although I never saw combat, we think that we can handle whatever the military throws our way. Furthermore, too many of us believe that it is a sign of weakness to ask for help.
[LAST THOUGHTS — FOR THOSE THAT SKIPPED AHEAD… I told this story because with the situation with my son and his family, I’ve really been missing Jordan and I wanted others to know the story of a true American hero. I believe that if he was still alive to talk to my son, that my son may have a better perspective on what our Catholic faith is. My wife and I tried to be good examples of Catholic parents and three of our four adult children are devout Catholics. Hopefully this is just a phase that my son is going through. Unfortunately, it is not helping his children learn the Catholic faith.
One more thing, Deacon Jordan always told me that he was very proud that all nine of his children still attended Catholic church. When Jordan passed, there were well over 1000 people packed into our church. Deacon Jordan surely touched many lives.
May God Bless Deacon Jordan,
Thomas
Also, I’m sorry if this post was so long and 4 parts and if I violated any rules of this forum, I apologize and it won’t happen again. I just felt the need to let everybody know about my dear friend, Deacon Jordan.
I then asked Deacon Jordan if he ever had any nightmares or any kind of anxiety attacks from what he saw in the South Pacific. He said that he did occasionally, but that war was hell & that he found that out for himself. Then I asked him if he wanted me to take him by the local VA hospital to talk to someone. He said he wouldn’t want to waste their time as he didn’t have that much longer to live and that no amount of talking would ever erase what he saw in the South Pacific.
I’ve done quite a bit a reading about PTSD and while I’m not a psychologist, I would think that Jordan would’ve benefited from talking to someone. FWIW, he told me that I was the only one that he had ever told his Marine experiences to. He protected his family from the horrors of war and the memories. After Deacon Jordan passed, I asked his oldest son if his dad ever talked about his time in the South Pacific and his son said that he never would talk about it. As I’m sitting here crying while I’m putting Deacon Jordan’s story in writing, I feel privileged that he thought I was a good enough friend and worthy of him sharing it with me.
Outwardly Jordan was the man I knew. Inwardly, I’m sure that he had to deal with the demons of war. Like most soldiers, and I’m one myself although I never saw combat, we think that we can handle whatever the military throws our way. Furthermore, too many of us believe that it is a sign of weakness to ask for help.
[LAST THOUGHTS — FOR THOSE THAT SKIPPED AHEAD… I told this story because with the situation with my son and his family, I’ve really been missing Jordan and I wanted others to know the story of a true American hero. I believe that if he was still alive to talk to my son, that my son may have a better perspective on what our Catholic faith is. My wife and I tried to be good examples of Catholic parents and three of our four adult children are devout Catholics. Hopefully this is just a phase that my son is going through. Unfortunately, it is not helping his children learn the Catholic faith.
One more thing, Deacon Jordan always told me that he was very proud that all nine of his children still attended Catholic church. When Jordan passed, there were well over 1000 people packed into our church. Deacon Jordan surely touched many lives.
May God Bless Deacon Jordan,
Thomas
Also, I’m sorry if this post was so long and 4 parts and if I violated any rules of this forum, I apologize and it won’t happen again. I just felt the need to let everybody know about my dear friend, Deacon Jordan.
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TC3033
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Pretty uncharitable as well, so this may be where I (as a non-Catholic) may need to step out of the conversation.
Many on here know I’ve struggled with the way non-Catholics are viewed at my wife and kids’ parish, but I don’t believe their Deacon would ever put NC’s down in such a way…
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Thomas54
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Why sir, you state the obvious.
Of course Catholic Science pre-dated Luther. But, because science had to agree with the Catholic Church’s teachings in the Catholic Church’s time frame, without the protestant reformation, who knows if the Catholic Church would have clamped down on the advancement of science. Didn’t Galileo run into an issue or two with the Catholic Church?
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Thomas54
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TC3033,
I’m sorry if that statement seemed uncharitable. I don’t think that it was meant to be. I have Baptist and Morman friends that feel the same way about the Catholic faith, only more so. I don’t think that they are being uncharitable when they tell me that they believe that their church is the real church. I still love them and I’m glad that we all believe in Jesus Christ.
Also, his comparison of a Cadillac and a Pinto was in the context of my struggling with my Catholic faith that was slipping at the time.
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Thomas54
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30+ years ago, when my Catholic faith was slipping, I looked into Mormonism. I found a book written by the son of a Baptist preacher who had married a Mormon. He loved the idea that Mormans were such a tightknit community and that family came above everything besides the church.
He left Mormanism several years later after he finally determined that it was a cult. He could no longer buy into their belief that they inherit Celestial Kingdoms and that “as we are now, God once was” or that Jesus and Satan were brothers.
A friend of mine, at the time, was married to a Mormon girl, he had left his last year of Catholic seminary to marry her. and they had three children that never attended Catholic mass, they only attended the Mormon Temple.
When I told him about the book I had read and that I had been interested in the Mormon faith, he told me to run and that all I had read in the book was true. He that he would be divorcing his wife in a few years, when the kids were all out of high school, because he could no longer tolerate the Mormon faith. The bad part about his situation is that his wife never let him take his three children to Catholic mass or to have anything whatsoever to do with the Catholic Church. It is hard for me to understand how someone could be in their third year of seminary and leave the calling for that type of situation, but I guess I’m old enough to know that nothing really surprises me anymore.
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Gorgias
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You’re forgetting about the Orthodox Churches.
Except that this is not what the Church teaches. Your wise deacon friend is incorrect, in the context of Catholics who leave the Church. (He’s correct in the context of folks who were never Catholic.)
No, that’s not correct. I’d say that it hasn’t yet borne fruit… but that doesn’t mean that it’s useless or futile. It’s a big project, and Protestantism has been around for 500 years; it’s not gonna take only 50 years to be fruitful in addressing it and seeking ecumenical harmony.
If you watch the ways in which ecumenism has succeeded, you’ll find many things to talk about.
An ecumenical council is a big thing. We’re only 50 years past the most recent one, and we haven’t yet unpacked everything that it has to offer. A new council isn’t the way to go. (Although, I admit, it does seem necessary to address these issues head-on…)
Thanks for sharing your story of your friend!
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Gorgias
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Yep. I figured that this old red herring was what you were talking about. You might want to read up on what contemporary historians have to say. Those without an axe to grind might surprise you with what they say.
The Catholic Church has supported scientific advancements before, during, and after the Reformation. It’s false that the Church has hindered science. This book might be a good read for you… if you’re willing to let go of conventional wisdom (which flies in the face of the facts).
Galileo, by the way, was unable to prove his assertions, but told all who would listen that he could prove it. The Church asked him to stop saying it was proven… until he could prove it. (Ironically, the Church was asking Galileo to be a better scientist than he was being.)
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Thomas54
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As a teenager, our Catholic Church started a folk mass in the elementary school gymnasium. I loved going to it, but my dad would only take us some times because he hated the music. Now that I’m older, I like the older music myself.
Our Catholic church does have a youth mass on Sunday evenings & they play more lively music. To each his own, kind a like religion, isn’t it?
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Thomas54
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I agree, my niece goes to a Greek Orthodox church. She likes the hats (so do I).You’re forgetting about the Orthodox Churches.
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Thomas54
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Is this not true?
“On June 22, 1633, the Church handed down the following order: “We pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo… have rendered yourself vehemently suspected by this Holy Office of heresy, that is, of having believed and held the doctrine (which is false and contrary to the Holy and Divine Scriptures) that the sun is the center of the world, and that it does not move from east to west, and that the earth does move, and is not the center of the world.”
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TheLittleLady
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Gingersnaps4
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Just keep being a good example of the faith, and take your grandchildren to mass anytime you are allowed to. Be there to answer any questions that may be asked. Sadly, it sounds like your DIL may never have felt her conversion deeply and has now changed her mind and your son feels obliged to go to the new church with her. Hopefully that isn’t the case, but it could be.
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Thomas54
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I whole heartedly agree!!! I have Baptist and Methodist friends that have been on their church boards and they have fired/hired preachers based on how well they can preach and how well that preaching is received.
With that being said, there has to be some way for some of the foreign born priests to improve their English speaking skills. Maybe each diocese should get involved in this area. My organization used to have a South Korean engineer that no one could understand. He took a couple of semesters of English as a Second Language classes and the difference was significant. Unfortunately, priests are too busy to attend such classes.
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