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Thomas54
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Great read!!! For a learned man, Galileo should have know better than to buck the system.
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twf
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I agree with keeping appropriate boundaries.
But it is a matter of salvation. Yes, we hope for the salvation of all Protestants… but to knowingly reject the Catholic Church or to subscribe to heretical doctrines IS a mortal sin. Only God can judge the culpability here and I assume there is a lack of full knowledge / consent - but it is serious.
I say this as someone who tends to interpret “outside the Church there is no salvation” as liberally as possible… but without minimizing the importance of orthodoxy and communion with Christ’s Church.
But it is a matter of salvation. Yes, we hope for the salvation of all Protestants… but to knowingly reject the Catholic Church or to subscribe to heretical doctrines IS a mortal sin. Only God can judge the culpability here and I assume there is a lack of full knowledge / consent - but it is serious.
I say this as someone who tends to interpret “outside the Church there is no salvation” as liberally as possible… but without minimizing the importance of orthodoxy and communion with Christ’s Church.
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Thomas54
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Our church has been holding a class on church history. It is using "Epic: A Journey Through Church History - 20-Part Study by Professor Steve Weidenkopf. It has been an eye opener for most of us that are going through the class.
Today, one of the topics presented by Dr. Weidenkopf was Vatican II. One of our church’s deacons was present today and the discussion period afterward centered on Vatican II and ecumenism. Our deacon said that it’s only been 50 years since Vatican II opened up acceptance of other denominations and that we need to allow more time for those that strayed to come back into the fold.
Well, how long should we wait? 100 years, 200 years, 1000 years? The Catholic church is bleeding members, as are the protestant churches. I haven’t said this before, but I’m an engineer by schooling and career. There is an old engineering axiom that goes something like this: “if you don’t measure it, you can’t fix it.” I believe that it is also used in the study of economics. Well, maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about, but if bleeding members is our measure, doesn’t it sound like a good idea that we make a mid-course correction and not just hope that protestants will come back to the fold sometime in the future?
Now, back to the issue of my original post dealing with my son’s family leaving the faith. This evening, my son-in-law , a convert from the Baptist/Methodist faith, got into a discussion with my son’s wife about giving up something for Lent. He didn’t know anything about my granddaughter’s remark to me. He asked my son’s wife what she gave up for lent and her response was "giving up something for lent is a “tradition with a small t. It’s not in the bible.” My SIL said that it’s a good idea to give something up for lent because it a way of sacrificing something like Jesus sacrificed for us. My son’s wife again repeated “it’s a small t.”
That was pretty much it. I just smiled and went outside to play some hoop with my grandkids. Normally, I would have jumped in, but as we all know, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
Has anyone ever heard this argument that our church traditions are “traditions with a small t?”
I’m beginning to wonder if my son’s wife recently heard a preaching that bashed the Catholic Church’s Traditions?" (Note the use of a Capital T)
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twf
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The Church has exploded in Africa. Would that have happened if not for Vatican II? I doubt it. Very much.
These discussions are always very Western centric. I suspect in a century (or less), the West will be a blip in Church affairs.
These discussions are always very Western centric. I suspect in a century (or less), the West will be a blip in Church affairs.
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Thomas54
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If the trend continues, Islam will take over the world and our faith may be driven underground if it survives at all. A friend of mine is a college professor and his specialty is Islamic Studies. He is Catholic and even he will agree that Islam is growing in the US and around the world at an alarming rate.
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Gorgias
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The question isn’t “how long should we wait?”, it’s “how long should we work toward unity in Christ?”. (The answer, of course, is “always” and “as long as it takes”.)
I think you’re trying to measure two distinct dynamics as if they were one. They’re not. “Ecumenism” speaks to bringing communities into our understanding of the teaching of Christ. You’re talking about losing Catholics (whether to other communities or just in general). The two aren’t the same thing.
The problem with trying to fix the latter dynamic is that we have to ‘measure’, as you put it. “Why are we losing people?” is the question. There’s no one answer; or, to be precise, there’s a particular answer for each person.
That’s fine… 'cause it is! If her answer to “why aren’t you doing something good?” is only “I don’t find it written explicitly in the Bible”, then she’s in a really rough place in her faith life. Pray for her.
(By the way, I think I find self-sacrifice in the Bible – Jesus does it for us; the widow does it (see “the widow’s mite”). We see ‘sacrifice for others’ all throughout Scripture. Are we prohibited from implementing it in our lives unless we see an explicit warrant for a particular action? That seems to be the lament of the goats in Matthew 25 – “well, I didn’t see you, so that’s why I didn’t do it!”)
Catholics talk about the difference between “small-t” and “big-T” traditions all the time.
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twf
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All who are baptized, sacramentally or by desire, are joined to the one Catholic Church…even if imperfectly so in many cases. But yes, the visible Church on earth is compose of those local churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome and the other bishops in communion with him.
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vsedriver
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this is not true. Galileo was censured because he put his at that time ‘theory’ out there as FACT and also claimed the scriptures were wrong. Today, modern scientists would be on the church’s side as to the theory and not interested in the theological side. And the Church was in the right when it came to what scripture means.
The Catholic Church has never censured scientific study in any way with the exception of experimentation on embryos.
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Thomas54
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I’ve never heard it. Can you give me a few examples of each? Also, is one more important than the other or is it a way to address our church Traditions in a negative way?
Years ago, when my DIL was dating our son, after getting to know me, she said that she had no idea that a Catholic knew so much about the Bible. She had been led to believe otherwise I guess.
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vsedriver
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I usually come back with where in the Bible does it say that everything we believe and do must be in the Bible?
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Thomas54
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I think that protestants have always understood our particular understanding of the teachings of Christ. Isn’t the problem that they will rarely ever agree with some of our understanding? I have no empirical data, but I would think that they might agree with us 98% of the time. It’s the 2% that makes them think that we may not be saved.
There are two couples in our Epic study group that are in their late 70’s. So, they were probably in their 30’s when Vatican II hit the streets. During our discussion, they made my point for me in stating that by accepting other denominations “into the fold” it made it easier for Catholics to leave our faith. Could one say that there was no longer the “guilt” that one might feel about leaving our faith?
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TheLittleLady
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Very true.
Also, Christ said “WHEN you fast…” not “If you decide you are going to fast”. Fasting, penance is part of being a Christian.
Also, Christ said “WHEN you fast…” not “If you decide you are going to fast”. Fasting, penance is part of being a Christian.
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Thomas54
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Very true!! A fellow that worked for me years ago was an extremely conservative Church of Christ individual who thought that Catholics were destined for hell.
He especially liked to say that we have musical instruments in church and thats “not in the Bible.” I asked him if our lives are supposed to imitate Christ and the apostles as best we can and he said that was true.
So I asked him if he drove to work that morning. He said that he did and I told him that Christ and the apostles walked everwhere and that cars weren’t in the Bible.
He said “that’s different.” So there you have it, another good reason why an individual shouldn’t necessarily take everything in the Bible literally.
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Gorgias
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No, it’s a reasonable approach. “small-t” traditions are simply things Catholics do, but aren’t doctrinal or required. For example, one blesses oneself with holy water when entering a church. Not required. Not prescribed. Just the use of a sacramental that Catholics tend to do when walking into a church. Giving up something as a sacrifice or penance at Lent could be another example.
“Big-T” traditions are different, though. And, to tell the truth, some Protestants tend to see red when they hear the word “Tradition!” (I can’t imagine the angst they experienced when they heard Topol singing about it!
)For some Protestants, when they hear about “Catholic Tradition”, their minds immediately go to Jesus’ warnings about the “traditions of men”, and they think that “Big-T” tradition is what Jesus was warning about. It isn’t. (It’s kinda unfortunate that we use that word, if it causes such confusion.) In fact, Jesus didn’t rail about “traditions of men” in general, but only inasmuch as they were in conflict with the commands of God. (It’s difficult to see how Lenten sacrifice is against God’s will.)
In Catholic theology, God desires to give his Divine Revelation to us. This revelation, known as “the Deposit of Faith”, has two components: spoken and written. The written component, Sacred Scripture, was transmitted through apostles and others through inspiration by the Holy Spirit. The spoken component, Sacred Tradition, was given to the apostles directly by Jesus, or to their successors.
When we say “Sacred Tradition”, then, we’re talking about the teachings of the Church (doctrine and dogma) as revealed by Jesus to the apostles and transmitted by them to the Church, or as interpreted from these teachings by the successors of the apostles.
“Big-T” tradition, then, is critically important. “Little-t” traditions are just… customs.
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Gorgias
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That would be a pretty important 2% then, wouldn’t it?
The thing is, we didn’t “accept other denominations ‘into the fold’”! We acknowledged that they were Christians, and we asserted that we have an imperfect union with them in Christ.
When I hear stuff like that – given that I grew up in the aftermath of VCII – I recall that many notions and ideas that were contrary to the expressed will of the Council were proposed (and accepted!) as the amorphous “spirit of Vatican II”…!
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Thomas54
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I understand. I think that there are a lot of Catholics that believe that we did. Wasn’t it more like “recognizing” that they were Christians in an effort to bring the individual, not the denomination back into the fold.
I just had a thought and it may sound terrible to some, but I’m hoping that God has a sense of humor. When a protestant tells me that it is wrong to pray to Mary, I tell them that when their favorite football team throws a successful Hail Mary Pass to win the game, they can thank us Catholics for the win. They never think that it is funny though.
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Thomas54
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Update: Our son sent me an email saying that every Catholic that he knew as a kid, is now either an atheist or goes to a protestant church. Granted, we live in an area where Catholics are greatly outnumbered by protestants, but that seems like a non-sequitur to me.
He said that he wants to deal with his family faith decisions by himself.
I answered him in an email saying that His mother & I went through the same thing in our 30’s and that we would like to talk to him about it when he is ready. He is extremely hard-headed, so I’d be surprised if that day will ever come.
So, for now, I get on my knees and pray.
Thomas
He said that he wants to deal with his family faith decisions by himself.
I answered him in an email saying that His mother & I went through the same thing in our 30’s and that we would like to talk to him about it when he is ready. He is extremely hard-headed, so I’d be surprised if that day will ever come.
So, for now, I get on my knees and pray.
Thomas
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