Sondland changes everything

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Guinness said:
Red handed would mean a statement from Trump to the effect of “either you announce an investigation into the Biden’s or you won’t get any money from us”. You don’t have that. What you have is a bunch of people who don’t like Trump claiming to be able to read his mind
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I think that you are looking for the wrong thing. It’s coming out that the Ukrainians knew there was a hold, and they knew they were being asked to investigate the President’s political rival.

You don’t have to be Fellini to figure that out.
 
PaulinVA said:
I think that you are looking for the wrong thing. It’s coming out that the Ukrainians knew there was a hold, and they knew they were being asked to investigate the President’s political rival.

You don’t have to be Fellini to figure that out.
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Still trying to figure out why it’s wrong for a US president to ask another foreign leader to investigate corruption in his country that may involve a US citizen, even one that is a potential political opponent of the US president. I thought having Presidents beholden to foreign entities was bad, at least it was last year, and I don’t know who Fellini is unless it’s this guy:

 
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Guinness said:
Still trying to figure out why it’s wrong for a US president to ask another foreign leader to investigate corruption in his country that may involve a US citizen, even one that is a potential political opponent of the US president. I thought having Presidents beholden to foreign entities was bad, at least it was last year, and
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Here is what Fionna hill said today:

“It struck me when (Wednesday), when you put up on the screen Ambassador Sondland’s emails, and who was on these emails, and he said these are the people who need to know, that he was absolutely right,” Hill said, referencing emails Sondland had sent to officials that included acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney. “Because he was being involved in a domestic political errand. And we were being involved in national security foreign policy. And those two things had just diverged.”
Hill added: “I had not put my finger on that at the moment, but I was irritated with him and angry with him that he wasn’t fully coordinating. And I did say to him, ‘Ambassador Sondland, Gordon, I think this is all going to blow up.’ And here we are.”
Guinness said:
I don’t know who Fellini is unless it’s this guy:
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It’s an old George Carlin phrase. Sorry if it fell flat. Yeah, it’s 'Fredrico.
 
Because the request for an investigation into corruption was merely a pretext to dig up dirt or alleged dirt on Biden from a president who has never shown any pressing concern for rooting out corruption anywhere anyway.
 
what?

I haven’t read all the posts here so hope i am not repeating anything but this is nuts

Sondland is a terrible witness, for one

first he said there was quid pro quo, then he said there wasn’t… even said the pres. told him in clear terms there was NOT to be quid pro quo

geez, you never-Trumpers!

I admit Trump supporters want to support him while ignoring some of his negatives but you know, I would NOT ignore if Trump was PROVEN to do something egregious.

it has NOT been proven. In fact, what has been proven is that he has a lot of Dem enemies who will do just about anything to get rid of him… ho hum… already knew that
 
fedup19 said:
In fact, what has been proven is that he has a lot of Dem enemies who will do just about anything to get rid of him… ho hum… already knew that
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Seems like we got a lot of that from Nunes already. But welcome anyway.
 
And saying that he would have Zelensky at the White House ASAP, but then not ever inviting him, while he cozies up nice nice with Putin at the G7 meetings.

And then not sending Pence to the inauguration, but sending the B-list players instead.

It signals, that Ukraine really isn’t a big thing, the US word is worthless.

It’s really sad we treat our allies that way.

Ukraine,
South Korea
Kurds
Nothing matters.

It’s shameful.
 
drcube said:
There were no emails to Sondland’s wife produced in the article, just a comment posted to a hotel owned by Sondland. There are protests going on outside his hotels, but there is nothing about anyone getting beaten up. So, you are exaggerating…again.
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You are attributing statements to me that I didn’t make----again.
 
Just before he was inaugurated he had to pay 25 million for a settlement to those who he conned into attending a pyramid scheme disguised as a university.

He’s not allowed to run a charity anymore in New York because of fraudulent activities.

He paid hush money and signed checks while in office.

He gets rid on an ambassador tough on corruption, and badmouths her.

He pardoned war criminals who killed civilians , against the wishes of the Pentagon

BUT he cares about corruption on Ukraine.

Ok. I have a bridge to sell.
 
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Guinness said:
Still trying to figure out why it’s wrong for a US president to ask another foreign leader to investigate corruption in his country that may involve a US citizen, even one that is a potential political opponent of the US president
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And if that corruption reached all the way to the then vice president of the U.S., how much deeper, one ought to ask, did it, does it, go? I think we have already seen some aspects of that with Comey, Strzok, Ohr, IRS, Yates, Rosenstein, Brennan, Clapper, and I think we’re very close to hearing a lot more about the corruption.
 
If there is corruption to investigate involving US citizens, then the channels to go through are the DOJ and the State Department. Part of what makes this all so very peculiar is Giuliani was operating as Trump’s agent. Why would a President use someone effectively acting as his personal attorney to investigate corruption involving Joe Biden? There is an entire branch of the government dedicated to investigating corruption involving US citizens.

I’m sorry. It doesn’t jive. If Trump wants to set up a whole new department to investigate foreign corruption involving US citizens, then he goes to Congress and asks for the creation of such a department. The US is a nation governed by the rule of law, not one in which the President basically sends of private individuals to far off lands. That isn’t law and order, that’s Presidentially-sanctioned vigilantism.

Not that I actually believe that was what Giuliani was up to, and I frankly agree with the witnesses and the whistle blowers that this was nothing more than an operation set up to dig up dirt on Biden, who still, by and large remains the most likely opponent in the 2020 Presidential election. But if we’re going to go with the theory that this was all about investigating corruption, well, there are actually attorneys and investigators in the DOJ whose job it is to do exactly that.

I know I know. “Deep state…” 3… 2… 1…
 
Yes.

Giuliani doesn’t work for the US.

He’s got no security clearance.

He hasn’t been vetted, no confirmation hearings were held to confirm him as ambassador to Ukraine.

He’s not registered as a foreign agent under the FARA act.

Why is that?
 
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fedup19 said:
first he said there was quid pro quo, then he said there wasn’t… even said the pres. told him in clear terms there was NOT to be quid pro quo

geez, you never-Trumpers!
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Look at the timeline.
The quid or quo was executed by the three amigos.

Only when the scandal was about to break did Trump call Sondland to coach him: “there was no quid pro quo” Even so, Trump l could not resist reaffirming the quid. Sondland’s testimony is not the least bit difficult to understand.
 
tomarin said:
The timing of Zelensky’s request, then the discussion by Trump of the asymmetry of help given between the two countries, then Trump’s request of a ‘favor’ of investigations, make it pretty clear what Trump expected of Zelensky.
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So every time someone asks a favor, that’s bribery? He told Sondland what he wanted. No quid pro quo. Zelensky should do the right thing. That’s not bribery. Zelensky denied he felt pressured.
The only people who think it is an impeachable offense are the people who have vowed to impeach him since the day after election.
tomarin said:
It certainly caused a lot of concern on the part of the people who heard the call.
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But not the alleged target of the bribe. Interesting.
tomarin said:
In the case of Sondland’s testimony, how can you call it hearsay when he was one of the people out orchestrating Trump’s desires (or trying to at least) at Trump’s direction?
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Did you read what he said?
I want nothing. I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. Tell Zelensky to do the right thing."
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dvdjs said:
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JonNC:
Did you read what he said …
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while frantically trying to cover up as the story was breaking?
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Where did Trump say that, or are you making up dialogue like Schiff did?
There was no quid pro quo in the phone call, either.
 
JonNC said:
Where did Trump say that
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The observation of an effort to alter the facts of the story just as it is breaking is typcially seen as a sign of consciousness of guilt.
For Trump fans, fortunately a minority, it seems that only an outright confession will do.
 
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