Sorry, but not sorry

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Allegra

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Do you teach your children to apologize even when they aren’t sorry? Do you require it? Is a person morally entitled to an apology any time they feel slighted? Obviously, there are times when it is a good idea to apologize, even when you think the person is over-reacting, in order to preserve the relationship or maintain a professional environment. Do you apologize for things you didn’t do? I, personally, don’t accept apologies that follow the “I’m sorry if you FEEL like I did thus-and-so.” Either admit that you did it or don’t. By the same token, I’m not really one to apologize for something that I don’t believe actually happened. For example, I’m not going to apologize if someone accuses me of backing into their car if I know I didn’t do it, but if it’s a matter of subjective opinion like being too loud in the library, I’d be more apt to apologize, even if I think the person is being obnoxiously fussy over nothing. It’s important for kids to know how to apologize, but is it in their best interest to compel or coerce them into apologizing when they aren’t sorry or don’t believe they were in the wrong.

I ask because I had to deal with a student issue today in my music room. A second grade class was learning a rhythm on the guiro (pronounced wee-row) and I was explaining how to pronounce it with a Spanish-sounding “r”. The kids spent a couple of seconds practicing rolled r’s and we went on with the lesson. When it was time to line up, I told the kids to put the guiros back in the basket, emphasizing the rolled “r”. As the kids were lining up, one student kept repeating the word “guiro” over and over, trying to roll their “r”. Another student, with a known history of disturbing excrement, proceeded to tell a third student that the first student was calling him a “weirdo”. Student three then became upset and began fussing at student one. Student one didn’t get worked up over the false accusation, but was pretty terse when replying that she was saying “guiro”, not “weirdo” and wasn’t talking about him. Student three continued to fuss, and I confirmed that student one was not calling him a “weirdo” and marked down student two, who started the argument. Apparently, student three wasn’t appeased and went straight to the classroom teacher in the hall and insisted that student one called him a name. I listened and overhead student one deny the claim and in a very reasonable tone, explained what she had said to the teacher.

My jaw just about dropped when I heard the teacher tell student one, “When we say something that hurt’s someone’s feelings, we have to apologize, even if we didn’t mean to hurt their feelings.” Okay. Obviously, the classroom teacher did not understand or hear the situation. I already dealt with it, and I had another class coming in.

But THEN, student one comes back later in the day, and informs me that the classroom teacher assigned her a lunch detention (with me) because she had refused to apologize. I told her that I would explain to the teacher what actually happened and she could go outside. So, I went to the teacher at the end of the day, and she is STILL convinced that people are supposed to apologize, not only when something they do unintentionally offends someone, but even when we didn’t even do what we are accused of doing!! This makes no sense to me. I have no intention of keeping a kid in from recess for not apologizing for something I know for a fact they did not do. Do people actually function this way? At best I might give a quick, “When an adult tells you to do something, you do it.” lecture, but come on!

Has anyone out there established an “apology policy” for youngsters in their care?
 
I’m a high school teacher. I’d be extremely annoyed if this happened to a student in my care. It’s an injustice. No…of course the student shouldn’t be made to apologise for something they didn’t say. I don’t even know how any teacher could say in that situation: “when we say something that hurts someone, we have to apologise”.

I’d have some hurtful words for her perhaps.

Even just reading this situation makes my blood boil…

:mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
That other teacher was way out of line. That is really similar to a parent contradicting the other parent in front of the kids when they are playing the mom against dad game.
 
That other teacher was way out of line. That is really similar to a parent contradicting the other parent in front of the kids when they are playing the mom against dad game.
I agree with this.

However, Allegra, I must admit (and yes this is sticky), by not enforcing the detention, it kind of continued (from the kids perspective) a disunified front by the teachers. Sadly, I think you should have enforced the detention

I hate to say, but the way schools are run today, there almost needs to be a policy on how teachers should handle this.

I agree with you that the first student did nothing wrong. I applaud you for writting up student 2. However, I still think student 3 needs a bit of a talking to. Student 3 was told that student 2 was in the wrong and student 2 is the person student 3 should be mad at.

Different people have different ways of handling things. And as much as the other teacher was wrong for asking student 1 to apologize, and as much as a ‘I am sorry you felt hurt’ is a bit of a useless apology IMO, if the other teacher felt it was necessary and there is no official policy, student 1 didn’t listen to the teacher’s orders and that in itself is wrong as well.

I think this is just one of those life situations there will always be disagreement over
 
I agree with this.

However, Allegra, I must admit (and yes this is sticky), by not enforcing the detention, it kind of continued (from the kids perspective) a disunified front by the teachers. ** Sadly, I think you should have enforced the detention**
I think it’s better to appear disunified than do an injustice to a student. No there doesn’t need to be a policy to deal with this…just a sense of justice.

I would never enforce a detention if I knew for a fact that the student was innocent.

It’s a terrible lesson to teach a child that they should be silent in the case of injustice rather than rock the boat.
 
The other teacher was out of line. Didn’t happen under her watch, none of her business.

She should have deferred to how you handled it, and she could take it up with you in the teacher workroom if she felt you handled it wrong.

That poor kid.
A forced apology is no apology. Pity the other teacher doesn’t know this.

This might be a good topic for the agenda at the next staff meeting.
I wouldn’t let it go.

What was the lesson learned? If you tattle or spin something long enough you can get even. :confused:

No Bueno
 
What was the lesson learned? If you tattle or spin something long enough you can get even. :confused:
Sadly, however, in this current world, that is pretty much the truth even for adults, isn’t it? Same with the forced insincere apologies. 😦

More reasons to be relieved I don’t have any children… 🤷
 
Okay, kiddo, here are the tough, unnegotiable rules of the classroom.

(1) Your room, your problem. Your students, your choice on detention. Your rules.

(2) Sage wisdom from my cooperating teacher during student teaching: “Keep administrators out of your room at all costs.” That being said, in this case you need to take the problem, off-stage, with you and the other teacher, to your appropriate administrator and get it ironed out NOW. Otherwise this “little” problem is gonna fester for the entire school year. Trust me. Been there, done that. Detention should not have been assigned without your consent. Your lunch and planning time are YOURS.

(3) Document, document, document. These three kids are now on your radar. It will ripple if you let it.

(4) Post classroom behavior expectations. Prominently. And read them often. Not just you, the students too.

(5) Find out who, if anyone, among your students is on an individualized education/behavior plan, and bring any appropriate special education specialists into the mix. This may be the start of a pattern of behavior indicative of special needs fixes.

(6) You have a union. If it has to go to the union someday you will need notes. Do not, repeat do not keep them at school.

Establish classroom control, now. If you need help, call your mentor. Good luck!

And back to your original question. From many years as a playground supervisor, I’ve concluded there’s nothing wrong to a “group sorry” communal apology. With second graders, it can even be turned into a game. Everybody holds hands and chants, “we’re sorry, we’re sorry, we’re sorry” and we move on. “We’re sorry something bad happened” points a finger at no one. But individual apologies? Again, those are best asked for by the behavior intervention folks in administration, and then in writing. In this case, it’s Student #2 who owes it to the other two for lying and starting the fight, IMHO. Check out “positive behavior intervention strategies” by Google.
 
That other teacher was way out of line. That is really similar to a parent contradicting the other parent in front of the kids when they are playing the mom against dad game.
Dealing with kids is the easy part if you ask me. It’s dealing with other faculty members, administration, and parents, that is the hard part. Most are just fine, but the few who aren’t…

“There were absolutely NO homework instructions or notes in Johnnie’s agenda”

“That’s because Johnnie left his agenda at home.” [again] Do I really have to text you every time Johnnie leaves something at home?:rolleyes:
 
I think it’s better to appear disunified than do an injustice to a student. No there doesn’t need to be a policy to deal with this…just a sense of justice…
umm… there is no sense of justice (the other teacher didn’t have any) so that is why there needs to be a policy
I would never enforce a detention if I knew for a fact that the student was innocent.

It’s a terrible lesson to teach a child that they should be silent in the case of injustice rather than rock the boat.
But… What was the detention for? The injustice or the comment the kid made while in the OP’s class? Or for not listening to the teacher?
 
I dunno… Saying something like, I’m sorry you feel bad, but I was not calling you a weirdo. I was practicing the word we learned today, seems reasonable to me.

Also, it seems like Student 2 should have apologized to each student.

I am personally ok with forced apologies. After all, sometimes confession is a bit like that, isn’t it? We don’t necessarily feel really bad, but we do acknowledge that there has been a glitch in the relationship.

And kids rarely feel bad enough to sincerely apologise. It’s good to learn to apologize rationally, even tho we may not have done anything wrong.

But I’m not talking about “I’m sorry if [the bad, stupid] thing I did upset you” kind of apology.
 
I dunno… Saying something like, I’m sorry you feel bad, but I was not calling you a weirdo. I was practicing the word we learned today, seems reasonable to me…
This is a very valid point. But it also proves my point that this is one of those life situations where there will never be a universally accepted consensus and sadly, things like this will happen again
 
I see two sides to this. Yes, we should apologize if we deliberately harm someone. But then again, if the “victim” is just a wuss who has a thin skin and gets offended at everything, then no apology is necessary. For instance if I say feminism is stupid, ID probably offend a bunch of sjws, but I don’t care because they should deal with it. I also disagree with St Paul when he told the early Christians to observe the mosaic dietary laws, so as not to offend the Christians who still kept it. I would have told St Paul no way! They just have to deal with it. Respect goes both ways. Yes we should be careful not to offend others, but they also can’t have too high demands of what they find offensive and what they don’t. Because that’s disrespectful to me.
 
That other teacher was way out of line. That is really similar to a parent contradicting the other parent in front of the kids when they are playing the mom against dad game.
The other teacher didn’t know that I had already dealt with it.
 
The other teacher was out of line. Didn’t happen under her watch, none of her business.

She should have deferred to how you handled it, and she could take it up with you in the teacher workroom if she felt you handled it wrong.

That poor kid.
A forced apology is no apology. Pity the other teacher doesn’t know this.

This might be a good topic for the agenda at the next staff meeting.
I wouldn’t let it go.

What was the lesson learned? If you tattle or spin something long enough you can get even. :confused:

No Bueno
The classroom teacher hasn’t arrive or opened the door yet when the exchange took place. She didn’t know that student three had already tried tattling to me and I had dealt with it.
 
Okay, kiddo, here are the tough, unnegotiable rules of the classroom.

(1) Your room, your problem. Your students, your choice on detention. Your rules.

(2) Sage wisdom from my cooperating teacher during student teaching: “Keep administrators out of your room at all costs.” That being said, in this case you need to take the problem, off-stage, with you and the other teacher, to your appropriate administrator and get it ironed out NOW. Otherwise this “little” problem is gonna fester for the entire school year. Trust me. Been there, done that. Detention should not have been assigned without your consent. Your lunch and planning time are YOURS.

(3) Document, document, document. These three kids are now on your radar. It will ripple if you let it.

(4) Post classroom behavior expectations. Prominently. And read them often. Not just you, the students too.

(5) Find out who, if anyone, among your students is on an individualized education/behavior plan, and bring any appropriate special education specialists into the mix. This may be the start of a pattern of behavior indicative of special needs fixes.

(6) You have a union. If it has to go to the union someday you will need notes. Do not, repeat do not keep them at school.

Establish classroom control, now. If you need help, call your mentor. Good luck!

And back to your original question. From many years as a playground supervisor, I’ve concluded there’s nothing wrong to a “group sorry” communal apology. With second graders, it can even be turned into a game. Everybody holds hands and chants, “we’re sorry, we’re sorry, we’re sorry” and we move on. “We’re sorry something bad happened” points a finger at no one. But individual apologies? Again, those are best asked for by the behavior intervention folks in administration, and then in writing. In this case, it’s Student #2 who owes it to the other two for lying and starting the fight, IMHO. Check out “positive behavior intervention strategies” by Google.
Ummm. I don’t take professional advice from people who address me as “Kiddo”. The entire tone of this post is disrespectful. I’ve been teaching for 12 years. I don’t have a mentor. I don’t need advice for dealing with my coworkers, I’m fully aware of my student’s IEPs, and this certainly is NOT a union issue.
 
I dunno… Saying something like, I’m sorry you feel bad, but I was not calling you a weirdo. I was practicing the word we learned today, seems reasonable to me.
THat’s more or less what the kid said, minus the word “sorry”. It’s one of my pet peeves when people say “sorry, but not sorry”, I think it’s fake and if you teach kids to do this, it’s a step backward from teaching them to genuinely apologize when they’ve messed up. In my experience, kids frequently are genuinely sorry when they’ve actually done something wrong, but they don’t like admitting they were wrong.
 
I guess I’m just wondering if it’s common practice to require kids to apologize when ever someone is upset. I require compulsory apologies from my 3yo when I know she’s done something wrong. I tell her you are supposed to apologize, even if you did it on accident. I’ve never told her to apologize when she hadn’t actually done it. I think it’s ridiculous to apologize for how others feel. You can only control what you can control and how other’s feel isn’t one of those things.
 
My school years definitely taught me that it’s sometimes necessary to make a false apology rather than get into further trouble. I also learned that it’s better to lie to avoid trouble, I don’t think schools do much to teach moral behaviors, if anything you have to learn the opposite to survive.
 
For instance if I say feminism is stupid, ID probably offend a bunch of sjws, but I don’t care because they should deal with it…
It depends on your audience. If you know ahead of time your comment is going to offend someone, making it anyway can be seen as trying to start a fight thus requiring an apology
 
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