Sorry, but SSPX Masses DO NOT normally fulfill the Sunday obligation

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Marilena said:
if an sspx laity’s canonical status has not been determined, how can they be under the penalty of excommunication if their status is not determined? that does not make sense to me. please clarify. wouldn’t the excommunication penalty only be considered valid if the sspx laity supported the schism?
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Excommunication kicks in if they formally support SSPX.
 
dumspirospero said:
I would much rather attend an SSPX Mass as opposed to an irreverant…modernist (one filled with abuses and invalid due to content) new mass…And yes…attending an SSPX Mass does fulfill your Sunday obligation…regardless of what you think…secondly, a lay Catholic’s canonical standing has not been defined for one that attends an SSPX Mass…which means it is not schismatic or heretical, etc…it is perfectly valid for one to attend if they so choose.
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You are wrong. I just showed in my first post that the Church says that the faithful are to avoid the SSPX and that the lack of a Tridentine Mass nearby is no excuse for attending an SSPX chapel. You didn’t even interact with my initial post. All you’re trying to do is repeat what you believe in the hope that by repeating it, it will be true.

Also, the SSPX is indeed schismatic, and the Church has spoken loud and clear on that. If you still insist on claiming the SSPX isn’t schismatic, then you’re lying to yourself big-time.
 
AJV said:
Isn’t it is that the priest must make a positive act of will against and only then it would be invalid? Even if he personally does not believe in it, so long as he does not make a positve intention against but intends to do what the Church does (and if I’m not mistaken, virtual intention is sufficient, but please correct me on that) it is valid.
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Disbelief involves the will. A priest may mouth the words–but if inside his will is in disbelief --how can there be intention.
 
dumspirospero said:
Yes Marilena…then excomm would be supported in that case…but it hasn’t been defined, so SSPX are not schismatic
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You are not clear. Are you referring to the SSPX laity? the SSPX organization? Or what?
dumspirospero said:
…and to be honest…the more I read of these new age, uncatchechized Catholics…the more I associate with the SSPX…they want to make others believe that all CAtholics who attend SSPX masses are schismatics…but that couldn’t be further from the truth. FYI…I have an indult in my diocese…but think for sh*t and giggles…I am going to attend an SSPX Chapel tommorow, for the first time…to show my unity…because afterall…it is all about Ecumenism right? 😃
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Ever hear of “submission to proper authority”? Americans just can’t seem to get their heads around the concept. All this “rugged individualism” and their off to prove the pope wrong and themselves tight. :rolleyes:

The pope has begged you not to support SSPX and you’re going ahead with it? Please reconsider.
 
dumspirospero said:
Yes Marilena…then excomm would be supported in that case…but it hasn’t been defined, so SSPX are not schismatic
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You are not clear. Are you referring to the SSPX laity? the SSPX organization? Or what?
dumspirospero said:
…and to be honest…the more I read of these new age, uncatchechized Catholics…the more I associate with the SSPX…they want to make others believe that all CAtholics who attend SSPX masses are schismatics…but that couldn’t be further from the truth. FYI…I have an indult in my diocese…but think for sh*t and giggles…I am going to attend an SSPX Chapel tommorow, for the first time…to show my unity…because afterall…it is all about Ecumenism right? 😃
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Ever hear of “submission to proper authority”? Americans just can’t seem to get their heads around the concept. All this “rugged individualism” and they’re off to prove the pope wrong and themselves right. :rolleyes:

The pope has begged you not to support SSPX and you’re going ahead with it? Please reconsider.

p.s., it won’t fulfill your Sunday obligation.
 
dumspirospero said:
I would much rather attend an SSPX Mass as opposed to an irreverant…modernist (one filled with abuses and invalid due to content) new mass…And yes…attending an SSPX Mass does fulfill your Sunday obligation…regardless of what you think…secondly, a lay Catholic’s canonical standing has not been defined for one that attends an SSPX Mass…which means it is not schismatic or heretical, etc…it is perfectly valid for one to attend if they so choose.
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I’ve mulled this one over many a time and I’ve got to say that if I had to choose the illicit at a “modernist” parish or the illicit at an SSPX parish, I’d choose the former. Why you may ask? Because I’d be attracted to the latter and the last thing I’d want is to be attracted to the illicit. I’ll stick (although I’m fortunate not to have to) with the illicit that I would never be attracted to lest I be sucked in as many have.

Secondly, we have been told in the excommunication decree not to support the schism of Marcel Lefebvre lest we be excommunicated. I find it dangerous for one to try and see how close they can get to the line of support when they’re not clear what it is.
 
This seems to be relavent to this discussion.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=129081

SlightlyMad
My grandparents joined the SSPX sometime in the mid-1980s. They both died without returning to the Catholic faith, and as far as I know, without being repentant or admitting in any way that they were wrong. My grandmother refused to receive Communion from an RC priest shortly before she died because he wasn’t “from the true Catholic Church,” meaning SSPX.

I know we must rely on God’s mercy, and that anything is possible with him. Can you please tell me what the Church’s view is on the fate of anyone having died in schism?
Last edited by Michelle Arnold : Jan 17, '07 at 6:50 pm.

Michelle Arnold

Re: What happens to Catholics who die in schism?
First of all, unless they were members of its third order, your grandparents did not “join” the SSPX. The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) is a priestly fraternity that is somewhat similar to a religious order. That means that laypeople do not ordinarily “belong” to the SSPX. Those who attend SSPX Masses are, generally speaking, lay Catholics assisting at SSPX Masses.

The canonical status of lay Catholics who attend SSPX Masses is not something the Church has defined. To date, all we know for sure is that they are lay Catholics who are attending illicit but valid Masses. This means that your grandparents likely did not die “in schism” from the Church.

While it is a tragedy that your grandparents were alienated, in some respects, from the Church, and that they supported the SSPX’s schism, we may hope that they were doing the best that they could with the knowledge that they had. If so, then we may hope that they died in God’s friendship. I recommend praying for the repose of their souls and, if you wish, arranging for Masses to be said for them at your local parish.
“The feeling remains that God is on the journey, too.” --St. Teresa of Avila
 
Walking_Home said:
This seems to be relavent to this discussion.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=129081

SlightlyMad
My grandparents joined the SSPX sometime in the mid-1980s. They both died without returning to the Catholic faith, and as far as I know, without being repentant or admitting in any way that they were wrong. My grandmother refused to receive Communion from an RC priest shortly before she died because he wasn’t “from the true Catholic Church,” meaning SSPX.

I know we must rely on God’s mercy, and that anything is possible with him. Can you please tell me what the Church’s view is on the fate of anyone having died in schism?
Last edited by Michelle Arnold : Jan 17, '07 at 6:50 pm.

Michelle Arnold

Re: What happens to Catholics who die in schism?
First of all, unless they were members of its third order, your grandparents did not “join” the SSPX. The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) is a priestly fraternity that is somewhat similar to a religious order. That means that laypeople do not ordinarily “belong” to the SSPX. Those who attend SSPX Masses are, generally speaking, lay Catholics assisting at SSPX Masses.

The canonical status of lay Catholics who attend SSPX Masses is not something the Church has defined. To date, all we know for sure is that they are lay Catholics who are attending illicit but valid Masses. This means that your grandparents likely did not die “in schism” from the Church.

While it is a tragedy that your grandparents were alienated, in some respects, from the Church, and that they supported the SSPX’s schism, we may hope that they were doing the best that they could with the knowledge that they had. If so, then we may hope that they died in God’s friendship. I recommend praying for the repose of their souls and, if you wish, arranging for Masses to be said for them at your local parish.
“The feeling remains that God is on the journey, too.” --St. Teresa of Avila
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It is still not the Church’s stand that normatively people may attend the SSPX Mass. If, for whatever odd reason, there was no NO Mass or Indult TLM available where you found yourself on any given Sunday, ie, you COULDN’T get to one, but there was an SSPX chapel with its valid, but illicit Mass (or an Orthodox liturgy, for that matter), the obligation to attend Mass on that Sunday would not exist.
 
Sola_Roma said:
Neither does an invalid Mass.
.
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I think you are right, when one knows the Mass to be invalid. But neither does attending a Baptist Church or skipping Mass all together. The point is to fulfil one’s Sunday obligation, not find alternatives that also fail.
 
From Ecclesia Dei (5c):
I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.(8)
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emphasis added​
Formal support = excommunication
Any support is against the wishes of the Pope as Vicar of Christ.
All Catholics have a formal, scriptural duty to remain in the unity of the Catholic Church.

This is not squishy language, folks.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
It is still not the Church’s stand that normatively people may attend the SSPX Mass. If, for whatever odd reason, there was no NO Mass or Indult TLM available where you found yourself on any given Sunday, ie, you COULDN’T get to one, but there was an SSPX chapel with its valid, but illicit Mass (or an Orthodox liturgy, for that matter), the obligation to attend Mass on that Sunday would not exist.
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Hey–I posted the Ms. Arnolds response because it is relavent to the discussion. If you have a problem with it—that is not my problem.
 
Walking_Home said:
Hey–I posted the Ms. Arnolds response because it is relavent to the discussion. If you have a problem with it—that is not my problem.
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I have no problem with Ms. Arnold’s response, I have a problem with what I suspect some might attempt to do with it (attempts have been made with other responses, ie, Msgr. Perle’s, as I’m sure you know).

The SSPX exist in a problematic area, at the very least (if they aren’t, why the effort to reconcile? You cannot reconcile unless there’s, at the least, a dispute, in this instance, a schism): on one end of the spectrum, its bishops are excommunicated, and it’s priests lack faculities to do anything outside of an emergency, on the other end are the laity adhering to one degree or another to the same schismatic attitude. But the fact remains, the faithful Catholic shouldn’t attend their Masses.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I have no problem with Ms. Arnold’s response, I have a problem with what I suspect some might attempt to do with it (attempts have been made with other responses, ie, Msgr. Perle’s, as I’m sure you know).

The SSPX exist in a problematic area, at the very least (if they aren’t, why the effort to reconcile? You cannot reconcile unless there’s, at the least, a dispute, in this instance, a schism): on one end of the spectrum, its bishops are excommunicated, and it’s priests lack faculities to do anything outside of an emergency, on the other end are the laity adhering to one degree or another to the same schismatic attitude. But the fact remains, the faithful Catholic shouldn’t attend their Masses.
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What it comes down to—I will not judge those who do attend the SSPX Mass. From what I gather from Ms. Arnolds response–no one is in a position to judge them either.
 
Walking_Home said:
What it comes down to—I will not judge those who do attend the SSPX Mass. From what I gather from Ms. Arnolds response–no one is in a position to judge them either.
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I wouldn’t presume to judge them, either. But I will point out what is objectively the Church’s stand on the issue and not attempt to muddy the waters on the question.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I wouldn’t presume to judge them, either. But I will point out what is objectively the Church’s stand on the issue and not attempt to muddy the waters on the question.
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I don’t attempt to muddy the waters either. I go based on what the latest word from Rome is.
 
Walking_Home said:
I don’t attempt to muddy the waters either. I go based on what the latest word from Rome is.
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The latest word from Rome doesn’t say what you persist in saying that it says, repeatedly and through many threads. And given that the status of the lay adherents is grey, the best argument is to avoid the danger of schism by not frequenting the chapels of the SSPX. That is what is objectively true, vis a vis the Church. No one is rendering judgement on the individual souls of ANYONE in the SSPX. The case of Archbishop Lefebreve is a case in point. No one can say that God did not show or might not have shows him mercy. Every Catholic, however, can tell you that, objectively, excommunication is not a good place to be in…particularly if you die in that state.
 
Rubbish

the SPPX is just following the path of the RCC (established through the ages)…how can you be Catholic and demonised at the same time
 
Melanie01 said:
Rubbish

the SPPX is just following the path of the RCC (established through the ages)…how can you be Catholic and demonised at the same time
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So the path of the RCC over the ages has been disobedience to the Pope? I wasn’t told! Amazing how SSPX supporters ignore the fact that they are in disobedience and the organisation’s priests are in schism and their bishops excommunicated: but they make a huge deal out of their adherence to the centuries of tradition (with a small T). The Pope has the authority to change the mass in most ways (keeping the consecration valid).

Why would people bother with the schismatic SSPX when there are organisations like ICRSS and FSSP?
 
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