Sorry for Judas

  • Thread starter Thread starter dorothy_smith
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

dorothy_smith

Guest
I can’t help feeling sorry for Judas if he has to suffer eternal damnation?? Do you think that Jesus forgave him? and that he is now in heaven with Jesus? After all, Judas played an integral part in fulfilling messianic prophesies. It called be argued that Judas was a lesser Chosen One??
 
I can’t help feeling sorry for Judas if he has to suffer eternal damnation?? Do you think that Jesus forgave him? and that he is now in heaven with Jesus? After all, Judas played an integral part in fulfilling messianic prophesies. It called be argued that Judas was a lesser Chosen One??
Well, ultimately any person’s fate is really only known to them and God. It’s quite possible that Judas repented and was forgiven - he seems to have been remorseful enough, certainly. But no-one who suffers damnation does so undeservedly or accidentally - they do so because they deliberately turn their backs on God and die unrepentant. So either way, don’t feel sorry for him.

There’s a great story though, about (if memory serves) St John Vianney speaking to a woman whose husband had committed suicide by throwing himself off a bridge. He reportedly said ‘don’t worry - he repented between the bridge and the water and was saved!’ So there’s certainly always hope.
 
One can be sorry, but not to the point of considering Judas a “lesser chosen one”. 😦

From both the Bible and Sacred Tradition, one definitely gets the impression that if (big if) Judas repented, it was very much unknown. Peter’s repentence for his betrayal, OTOH, is not only noted but underscored. Judas’ end is given that he hanged himself (meaning that it is likely that he committed the mortal sin of despair and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit for thinking his sin, great though it was, was so unforgivable by God that he ‘had to’ kill himself), and some of the details (won’t go into them here, they are in scripture though) are reminscent of the ends of rather spectacularly evil people like Jezebel.

So. . .not 100% certain of Judas’ destination, poor (probably lost) soul. . . God have mercy on him and on us all.

but please don’t make the error of feeling so sorry for him that you turn him, as some of the gnostics did, into the ‘real hero’ of salvation history for being ‘willing to do the dirty deed that gave us the Resurrection’. Since Jesus Himself said, “Woe to him who does this–it were better for him that he had not been born”–I’d listen to Jesus. Who, after all, knew Judas much better than we do. . .
 
The likely damnation of Judas Iscariot is an example of God’s perfect justice. We should therefore not feel sorry for Judas but rejoice in his fate.
 
If it helps any, there was a medieval tradition that once a year, Judas was given a one-day vacation from Hell, because He had been Jesus’ friend.
 
The very conception of Hell is wickedness beyond comprehension. If we as Catholics believe that such a fate awaits anyone then there is something seriously flawed in our belief system.
 
I can’t help feeling sorry for Judas if he has to suffer eternal damnation?? Do you think that Jesus forgave him? and that he is now in heaven with Jesus? After all, Judas played an integral part in fulfilling messianic prophesies. It called be argued that Judas was a lesser Chosen One??
If Judas had not chosen to betray Jesus, the whole Redemption would have happened another way. Judas used his Free Will to make a choice.

We don’t know if Judas repented in his final moments or not, but if not, then he died unrepentant and, because mortal sin is an offence against God, who is Infinite, anyone who dies unrepentant in a state of mortal sin, deserves an infinite punishment.

While God’s Mercy desires the repentance of the sinner, His justice respects our free choices.

If Judas escaped Hell I imagine his soul would be in Purgatory rather than Heaven because I can’t imagine many people praying for his soul througout the past 1970 years.
 
The very conception of Hell is wickedness beyond comprehension. If we as Catholics believe that such a fate awaits anyone then there is something seriously flawed in our belief system.
To reject the very idea of eternal punishment ie Hell, is to deny a tenet of the Faith and that is also to call Jesus’ teaching into question.

Hell is not a comfortable doctrine, but it is real nonetheless.

Our Lord has told us very plainly that there is a hell and that in hell the devils and all members of the human race who die in mortal sin will suffer eternal punishments. On the day of general judgment, He tells us, the judge will say to the wicked: “DEPART FROM ME ACCURSED ONES, INTO THE EVERLASTING FIRE WHICH WAS PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.”
 
Just because Judas’ betrayal was instrumental to the Redemption does not mean that he was pre-destined to do so. He had free will and chose to betray Jesus.

But even then, after doing the dastardly deed, he could always have persevered and begged forgiveness. Look at St. Peter. But he didn’t. So why feel sorry for him? All that happened to him was his own doing. He had it coming.

Nevertheless, the Church never declares anyone in hell. There is always the remote chance that Judas repented before the rope tightened.

As Archbishop Sheen wrote, “The biggest tragedy of all this is that he might have been St. Judas.”
 
I can’t help feeling sorry for Judas if he has to suffer eternal damnation?? Do you think that Jesus forgave him? and that he is now in heaven with Jesus? After all, Judas played an integral part in fulfilling messianic prophesies. It called be argued that Judas was a lesser Chosen One??
Hello Dorothy,

Jesus says of Judas that it would have been better that he had never been born. If Judas is in heaven, this would make Jesus a liar. I do not think we should make Jesus look like a liar.

I think that when we start suggesting that it would be “more Christian” for Jesus to forgive Judas, which He did not do on earth, He certianly indicated the opposite on earth, we are putting our moral judgement above what Jesus actually said and did. In other words, when we indicate that the proper Christian thing for Jesus to do would be for Jesus to forgive Judas, we are putting ourselves up as judge over Jesus’ actions which imply the opposite. Our Christian judgements of what we believe Jesus should do, opposite of what Jesus indicated that He does do, does not glorify but degrade Jesus. I do not see implications that if Jesus were really a forgiving Being, He would forgive Judas, as a good thing.

NAB MAT 26:23
"The man who has dipped his hand into the dish with me is the one who will hand me over. The Son of Man is departing, as Scripture says of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. Better for him if he had never been born."
 
Re: Hell

If we want to turn away from God and never see Him again, He will try to persuade us otherwise during life. But if we insist upon it, He will let us stay turned away from Him for all eternity. If that is our hearts’ desire, we will be given it, just as those in Heaven are.

It’s not God’s fault that, apart from Him, there is nothing but Hell.
 
The very conception of Hell is wickedness beyond comprehension. If we as Catholics believe that such a fate awaits anyone then there is something seriously flawed in our belief system.
No, the flaw lies in anyone who disbelieves God at his word. Hell is not a Catholic invention; it comes out of the mouth of the Savior himself. God throws no one into hell. People go there out of their own free choice. God never forces salvation on those who don’t want it.

Read the Bible.
 
The very conception of Hell is wickedness beyond comprehension. If we as Catholics believe that such a fate awaits anyone then there is something seriously flawed in our belief system.
No, the flaw lies in anyone who disbelieves God at his word. Hell is not a Catholic invention; it comes out of the mouth of the Savior himself. God throws no one into hell. People go there out of their own free choice. God never forces salvation on those who don’t want it.

Read the Bible.
I agree with you porthos!

Who are you Dorothy, to judge Jesus teachings on hell as “wickedness beyond comprehension”.

WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All

NAB MAT 25:41

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
NAB MAT 7:13

How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.**NAB MAT 13:47-50 **

The reign of God is also like a dragnet thrown into the lake, which collected all sorts of things. When it was full they hauled it ashore and sat down to put what was worthwhile into containers. What was useless they threw away. That is how it will be at the end of the world. Angels will go out and separate the wicked from the just and **hurl the wicked into the fiery furnace, where they will wail and grind their teeth. ****NAB JOH 12:47 **

"If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken - it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me." NAB JOH 5:27

“The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned.
 
I believe Dorothy has a very good point, here.

As much as God loves each and every one of us, don’t you think He mourns the loss of any of His beloved sheep? We, as part of the Body of Christ, should mourn the loss of anyone as well.

Still, God in his infinite justice and mercy, offers the punishments of hell to anyone who chooses damnation over basking in His Beatific Vision. He wouldn’t be the God of Justice if He didn’t do that.

But I don’t think we should celebrate over ANYONE who fails to repent and turn back to God.
 
I believe Dorothy has a very good point, here.

As much as God loves each and every one of us, don’t you think He mourns the loss of any of His beloved sheep? We, as part of the Body of Christ, should mourn the loss of anyone as well.

Still, God in his infinite justice and mercy, offers the punishments of hell to anyone who chooses damnation over basking in His Beatific Vision. He wouldn’t be the God of Justice if He didn’t do that.

But I don’t think we should celebrate over ANYONE who fails to repent and turn back to God.
Who does? And you must note that Dorothy attacked the very notion of the existence of hell, contrary to the faith. If any, such compassion is misguided or misplaced.
 
I believe Dorothy has a very good point, here.

As much as God loves each and every one of us, don’t you think He mourns the loss of any of His beloved sheep? We, as part of the Body of Christ, should mourn the loss of anyone as well.

Still, God in his infinite justice and mercy, offers the punishments of hell to anyone who chooses damnation over basking in His Beatific Vision. He wouldn’t be the God of Justice if He didn’t do that.

But I don’t think we should celebrate over ANYONE who fails to repent and turn back to God.
You are making the mistake of ascribing a human experience of emotion to God. God, being the supreme authority and unmoved mover, cannot be moved one way or the other by an emotion. To the extent that God can be said to feel anything at all, He directs Himself to feel an emotion appropriate to whatever purpose He is serving. In the damnation of a soul, He is exercising His perfect justice. Therefore, there would be no reason to mourn this, so God cannot be said to mourn the loss of any to the eternal flame. If He were to choose to feel anything at all as a result of this, I imagine it would be satisfaction in knowing that justice has been served.

For those of us who choose to rest in the Beatific Vision, cleansed of all impurity, we, like God, will also fail to mourn those who suffer eternal death. We will see it for the perfect justice that it is and rejoice. Paradise is not an eternity tinged with sorrow over the loss of the willfully disobedient. It is to experience joy in all things, including those who meet with justice, whatever it may be.
 
Originally Posted by Other Eric;
You are making the mistake of ascribing a human experience of emotion to God. God, being the supreme authority and unmoved mover, cannot be moved one way or the other by an emotion.
If that was really the case then all bets would be null and void. God being “unmoved” by our feelings of emotion would therefore disentitle Himself the right to judge us.
To the extent that God can be said to feel anything at all, He directs Himself to feel an emotion appropriate to whatever purpose He is serving. In the damnation of a soul, He is exercising His perfect justice. Therefore, there would be no reason to mourn this, so God cannot be said to mourn the loss of any to the eternal flame. If He were to choose to feel anything at all as a result of this, I imagine it would be satisfaction in knowing that justice has been served.
To validate your argument you have to present it objectively. In my opinion, your subjective point of view is rather dictatorial in expression and therefore cannot bare any relation to the justice of God as perceived by human reasoning of what is right and what is wrong.

My friend, I have to remind you that Jesus was more “moved” by emotional feelings than any man that has ever lived
 
While it’s not unlikely that Jesus, perfect man and perfect God, ‘felt’ everything to perfection. . .‘more moved by emotion?’

I don’t think so, dorothy. There are negative emotions too. Do you think that Jesus was angrier than any other man? :confused:

I wish you’d address the other posts which very effectively spoke to your misinterpretation of what hell is and pointed out that your ‘questioning’ of ‘our’ Catholic ‘belief system’ (I like the good old fashioned word FAITH myself 🙂 ) is the real error and difficulty that is giving you the problem–not God and His judgment.

Excellent Scripture quotes there Stephen, BTW. I really appreciate the format you use, I find it easier and clearer to read than most.
 
Originally Posted by Tantum ergo
I wish you’d address the other posts which very effectively spoke to your misinterpretation of what hell is and pointed out that your ‘questioning’ of ‘our’ Catholic ‘belief system’
You can’t tell me or anyone else which posts to address. You haven’t the right to do that. I Have a time limit to address posts. I can’t address all of them.
There are negative emotions too. Do you think that Jesus was angrier than any other man?
If you want to ‘question’ me (as you put it) then don’t do so subjectively. For example, how am I or anyone else suppose to know how angry Jesus may or may not have felt?
(I like the good old fashioned word FAITH myself )
I wouldn’t call faith an old fashioned word. It is as relevant today as it has always has been.

And a little bit of netiquette that you should be aware of: inappropriate use of quotation marks and capitalisation of words i.e. FAITH (is SHOUTING) and ‘inappropriate’ quotation marks (i.e. the first quote above) can be ‘intimidating’.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top