Sorry for Judas

[FCEGM]

Heaven is unity with God. It is bliss. When I affirm the existence of hell, which is separation from God, I do not deny the existence of heaven.

Everyone has free will and is free to reject God at any time. Indeed, all of us have at some point, and all of us continue to have that ability until death.

I agree that our happiness in heaven would definitely be greater if all of our loved ones were there, so you do have a point. . . .

Just a slight quibble about this, Jonk. While presently we may think that our joy in heaven would be less if some loved ones weren’t there (or that of our loved ones would be less if WE weren’t there! ), we have to remind ourselves that we will rejoice in God’s justice as well as His merciful Love. C. S. Lewis speaks to this:

“What some people say on earth is that the final loss of one soul gives the lie to all the joy of those who are saved.”

“Ye see it does not.” [Says MacDonald]

“I feel in a way that it ought to.”

That sounds’ very merciful, but see what lurks behind it."

“What?”

“The demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final power; that Hall should be able to veto Heaven. . .Watch that sophistry or ye’ll make a Dog in tha Manger the tyrant of the universe,” The Great Divorce.

 

[dorothy_smith]

My faith in Jesus is emphatic. He is our Saviour. Hell exists because Jesus tells us that it does. Jesus is truth. I am inclined to reject the ‘notion’ of Hell because it frightens me. Why God allows Hell to exist is a mystery to me.

The question of Hell has been a problem for the Catholic Church for years. The Church tells us that sinners choose by their own free will to reject God; that the rejection of God is Hell. Sinners reject God and therefore reject Heaven. That is fair enough. But, I cannot help but feel that that answer is a cop out.

Sinners reject God so therefore reject Heaven. Why doesn’t God destroy their souls? Send them back into non-existence? He created them. He can also destroy them. Why does He allow the existence of souls in eternal damnation? That is the mystery to me!

Once again, to emphasise the point: Jesus tells us that Hell exists so therefore Hell does exist. There must be a reason why? I cannot imagine the purpose of Hell is solely to deter people from sinning. To me there doesn’t seem any point to the existence of Hell. It serves no purpose. I know that God is not in error. The devil is confusing me.

 

[Tom]

I am of the opinion that no one knows the eternal fate of Judas. Was he forgiven? No one knows. However one correction, and I’m not taking either side:

He confesses his sin. When we confess our sin we are absolved. Why not Judas?

When we confess our sins it is to a priest who has the authority to absolve our sin. Judas “confessed” to the Jewish rabbis who do not have the authority to absolve sin. So his “confession” is not proof he was forgiven, it is also not proof he wasn’t. We will just have to wait and see.

 

[jonk]

Just a slight quibble about this, Jonk. While presently we may think that our joy in heaven would be less if some loved ones weren’t there (or that of our loved ones would be less if WE weren’t there! ), we have to remind ourselves that we will rejoice in God’s justice as well as His merciful Love. C. S. Lewis speaks to this:

Thank you for enlightening me.

Naturally, one desires the best for their loved ones.

 

[jonk]

My faith in Jesus is emphatic. He is our Saviour. Hell exists because Jesus tells us that it does. Jesus is truth. I am inclined to reject the ‘notion’ of Hell because it frightens me. Why God allows Hell to exist is a mystery to me.

I understand your fear. However, God allows hell to exist because justice is good and God is just - I will try my best to explain below, especially why hell is eternal. And you’re right, God’s justice is frightening. Under God’s justice, all are condemned. God, however, is also merciful, and sacrificed His only Son so that we would not have to face His Divine justice.

dorothy_smith:

Sinners reject God so therefore reject Heaven. Why doesn’t God destroy their souls? Send them back into non-existence? He created them. He can also destroy them. Why does He allow the existence of souls in eternal damnation? That is the mystery to me!

Imagine if God euthanised eek the reprobate. That would mean that God would treat a simple thief and someone like Stalin or Hitler the same. There would be no justice in that, whereas in hell, the punishment is proportionate to the evil committed. Hell is mysterious, no doubt, and it is on one hand hard for us to fathom why such a place exists, but on the other hand, a good God would not be an unjust God.

God would never send a truly repentant soul to hell, and you can be assured that if Judas had indeed truly repented as you suggest, he is in heaven.

I’m sure another problem for us is comprehending how eternal punishment could in any way be just. That is because we see our misdeeds merely in finite terms. When one steals from another person, the offence is as finite as its victim, so why eternal punishment? Our own sense of justice reacts against such a thought. How could anyone deserve such a fate? It is human to err, is it not? This might be what you are thinking, and I’d be surprised if you weren’t . Indeed, if we are saved, we are purified from the stain of such a finite offence in purgatory, and the pain of purification of attachment to such sin is proportionate to the pain caused by the offence. However, we often forget that our deeds have an infinite aspect and that our transgressions against the moral order wound an infinite Being. Our offences cause infinite pain too. For this reason do they merit infinite punishment, and only an infinite sacrifice could atone for such an offence.

And that is why we need Jesus Christ and why God is so incredibly good. So good that He decided to spare us from His justice and from the very pain that we have inflicted on Him, even though He didn’t have to. No-one has deserved heaven, not even the holiest of saints. They have at some point caused infinite offence to God too, but they are saved through Jesus Christ. That sure is Good News.

dorothy_smith:

Once again, to emphasise the point: Jesus tells us that Hell exists so therefore Hell does exist. There must be a reason why? I cannot imagine the purpose of Hell is solely to deter people from sinning. To me there doesn’t seem any point to the existence of Hell. It serves no purpose. I know that God is not in error. The devil is confusing me.

Hell exists because God is just. Don’t worry about getting confused - we all do contemplating the mysteries of our Creator, but just try and give the Church the benefit of the doubt while you try and come to grips with these difficult concepts. They’re difficult to understand because our perspective is limited. We must try and resist the temptation to project our finite perspective onto the infinite, thus remaking God in our own image. When you say that God is not in error, you understand what God said in Isaiah 55:8 - “‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,’ declares the LORD.” This humble recognition of one’s limitations opens our souls to gaining greater insight into the beautiful mystery that is our God, even though our understanding will always fall short.

God bless

 

[jonk]

try and give the Church the benefit of the doubt

I suggest that because the Church is founded by Christ and she has pondered these mysteries for millennia, all the while protected from error.

 

[dorothy_smith]

God, however, is also merciful, and sacrificed His only Son so that we would not have to face His Divine justice.

God is good.

Sinners reject God so therefore reject Heaven. Why doesn’t God destroy their souls? Send them back into non-existence? He created them. He can also destroy them.

God has been merciful to me by drawing my attention to these two verses in the Bible:

*There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy (James 4:12). *

*If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy (1 Corinthians 3:17). * :clapping: :dancing:

 

[junk]

This is going off topic now, but I’ll answer your post…

dorothy_smith:

God has been merciful to me by drawing my attention to these two verses in the Bible:

Regarding 1 Corinthians 3:17 - notice how the verses immediately following the Scripture you quoted echo Isaiah 55:8 - could that be what God was drawing your attention to?

1 Corinthians 3:18-19
Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight.

And just before the verse you quoted from James, “Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.” (James 4:10)

God certainly has been merciful to you.

In 1 Corinthians 17, Scripture says: ‘If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.’ But notice also how in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, the “destruction” is described as “everlasting”: ‘They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power’

God could make anything that He has brought into existence cease existing, but He doesn’t, and certainly not the souls of the reprobate: ‘“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”’ (John 5:28,29). This is echoed in Daniel 12:2: ‘Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.’ Again, we see this in Matthew 25:46: ‘“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”’

Luke 16:19-31 is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Notice that the rich man is in hell and yet continues to exist. ‘In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’’ (Luke 16:23,24). The punishment in hell is “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), and hell is described as a place where “their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:48). In Revelations 14:11, we are told that ‘…the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.’ This is also echoed in Revelations 20:10: ‘And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.’

The Church makes it abundantly clear that hell does exist and is a place of eternal punishment, and this is backed up in Scripture. So let’s not deceive ourselves. Believe what you may, but God’s perfect justice is no laughing matter.

 

[dorothy_smith]

Dear Jonk and Junk

What is the Western Branch of American Reform Presbylutheranism?

 

[Mintaka]

It’s a joke. According to the episode of The Simpsons when Bart and Homer Simpson convert to Catholicism, that’s the Simpsons’ old denomination.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

We can all agree that what Judas did was wicked. However, his action did fulfill God’s devine plan to redeem us through the blood of Christ.

This one is a tricky one to judge!

 

[FCEGM]

We can all agree that what Judas did was wicked. However, his action did fulfill God’s devine plan to redeem us through the blood of Christ.

Our Lord Himself response to this is recorded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke:

Matthew:

“The son of man is going to his fate, as the scriptures say he will, but alas for that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! Better for that man if he had never been born!” 26:24-25

Mark:

“Yes, the Son of man is going to his fate, as the scriptures say he will, but alas for that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! Better for that man if he had never been born!” 14:21

Luke:

“The Son of man is indeed on the path which was decreed, but alas for that man by whom he is betrayed!” 22:22-23

 

[Eileen_T]

God permitted the Blessed Virgin to appear to the children of Fatima and show them hell open at their feet. Mary said to the children: “YOU SEE HELL WHERE THE SOULS OF POOR SINNERS GO.”

It was not for the children’s sake that she showed them hell. She told them they were going to heaven. It was a warning to the world to stop committing sin and to stop pretending there is no hell.

Our priest explained quite clearly recently why God does not annihilate Lucifer (and the other demons and souls in hell), I wish I had a copy of his homily.

God created Lucifer as He created each one of us, and He loves him as He loves each of us.

Even if a child of ours went bad, turned against us, rejected us and even hated us with a passion, we would not kill that child to put him or her out of the misery of their existence. (Well, I wouldn’t!) Neither will God.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

I don’t understand the idea of a firey hell. How does this fit in with love? (just curious)

 

[dorothy_smith]

We can all agree that what Judas did was wicked. However, his action did fulfill God’s devine plan to redeem us through the blood of Christ.

This one is a tricky one to judge!

Our Lord Himself response to this is recorded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke:

Matthew:
Quote:
“The son of man is going to his fate, as the scriptures say he will, but alas for that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! Better for that man if he had never been born!” 26:24-25
Mark:
Quote:
“Yes, the Son of man is going to his fate, as the scriptures say he will, but alas for that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! Better for that man if he had never been born!” 14:21
Luke:
Quote:
“The Son of man is indeed on the path which was decreed, but alas for that man by whom he is betrayed!” 22:22-23

If that is the case, then I wonder why Jesus didn’t hand Himself over to the authorities before Judas had the chance to betray Him? After all, Jesus came to save man. Why not Judas? It all seems very unfair to me.

 

[dorothy_smith]

Perhaps Judas was set up.

26: Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give this morsel when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
27: Then after the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.”
28: Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. (Jn 13:26-28).

Jesus orchestrated events. He elected Judas in the morsel scenario. Satan then entered Judas. Jesus then told Satan to fulfil messianic prophesy. The only part that Judas played was that of the vessel in order to necessitate proceedings.

 

[porthos11]

If you are correct in saying that Hell does exist then by implication you are also saying that Heaven does not exist.

The definition of Heaven is a state of bliss, right? Imagine that your spouse, son, daughter, mother or father died in mortal sin but you did not. How could you spend eternity in a state of bliss knowing that your loved one(s) are suffering eternal damnation? You could not. No one could.

This is such a human and temporal point of view, based on our imperfect concept of happiness.

In heaven we will be in the presence of God, who is happiness himself. In the beatific vision, it is impossible to be unhappy, for he is infinite consolation.

Proposals such as these mean that God is insufficient for happiness, and this is by definition false.

 

[porthos11]

My friend I am confused to why you give more credit to the words of another poster than to those written in the Bible? Once again I have to point out to you that Judas did repent vigorously. It is there for you to read in Mathew 27: 3-5. Or in your opinion do you think that the word of the Bible is erroneous? Judas confessed his sin. He returned the blood money. He was ashamed of what he did.

No, you are reading into the Bible what you want. The Bible says nothing of Judas experiencing contrition. Neither does it say he wept in sorrow. Neither does it say that he begged forgiveness. He did not experience metanoia.

You also condemn him for suicide but I have already explained that he clearly was in a confused state of mind and so cannot be held fully responsible for his rash and desperate act. There are countless suicides all over the world today by people suffering from severe depression. Do you condemn them also?

Clearly? Nothing about his state of mind is CLEARLY presented in the Bible. “He went out and hanged himself.” I don’t see any footnotes that say “Some manuscripts add, ‘in a confused state of mind.’” No. I don’t know the state of anyone’s soul at the moment of death. But Judas did an objectively grave act by hanging himself. Just for that his salvation can already be called into doubt.

Your lack of compassion for Judas is bewildering to me. I am sure that deep in your heart as a Christian you do feel compassion for him. You also say that ‘It’s too late for Judas now’. I gulped with despair when I read that. God judges man alone not us. You don’t know if it’s too late. With God all things are possible.

Your compassion for Judas is bewildering to *me.

*The Bible has nothing good to say about Judas Iscariot. Jesus himself said that it would have been much better for Judas if he had not been born. This strongly points to a fate much worse than a suffering life. Surely, these words make little sense if Judas indeed repented out of contrition.

Nevertheless, it is been stated time and again that no one knows Judas’ ultimate fate. You’re the only one here who seems to want to canonize him, to the point of denying hell, which is a dogma of faith.

As for me, Judas Iscariot was what the Bible says he is: a thief who betrayed the Lord. I will not make him a saint.

 

[dorothy_smith]

You’re the only one here who seems to want to canonize him…

Dear porthos11

‘canonize him’ ??? These are your words not mine.

Again, by your own words in all your posts you are adamant in your lack of compassion for Judas. That is your prerogative.

Jesus taught us to be compassionate and to have mercy. I hope that is what I am attempting to do in relation to Judas. I try my best (inadequately I know) to conform to what Jesus teaches in the NT. That is my prerogative.

 

[dorothy_smith]

PS: Dear porthos11 in counter to your accusation:

You’re the only one here who seems to want to canonize him, to the point of denying hell, which is a dogma of faith.

Instead of steaming in accusingly perhaps you should have took the time to read my previous post:

My faith in Jesus is emphatic. He is our Saviour. Hell exists because Jesus tells us that it does. Jesus is truth. I am inclined to reject the ‘notion’ of Hell because it frightens me. Why God allows Hell to exist is a mystery to me.

The question of Hell has been a problem for the Catholic Church for years. The Church tells us that sinners choose by their own free will to reject God; that the rejection of God is Hell. Sinners reject God and therefore reject Heaven. That is fair enough. But, I cannot help but feel that that answer is a cop out.

Sinners reject God so therefore reject Heaven. Why doesn’t God destroy their souls? Send them back into non-existence? He created them. He can also destroy them. Why does He allow the existence of souls in eternal damnation? That is the mystery to me!

Once again, to emphasise the point: Jesus tells us that Hell exists so therefore Hell does exist. There must be a reason why? I cannot imagine the purpose of Hell is solely to deter people from sinning. To me there doesn’t seem any point to the existence of Hell. It serves no purpose. I know that God is not in error. The devil is confusing me.