Sorry for Judas

[Tantum_ergo]

Saying “I wish” is hardly telling a person “what to do about something”, or so I have always been taught in my 50 years. As for the rest of your post, I’ll let it speak for itself, since I have no wish to disrupt the thread or deviate from the topic.

Have a pleasant day.

 

[NotWorthy]

Who does (rejoice)? And you must note that Dorothy attacked the very notion of the existence of hell, contrary to the faith. If any, such compassion is misguided or misplaced.

I would say Eric rejoices.

The likely damnation of Judas Iscariot is an example of God’s perfect justice. We should therefore not feel sorry for Judas but rejoice in his fate.

 

[NotWorthy]

You are making the mistake of ascribing a human experience of emotion to God. God, being the supreme authority and unmoved mover, cannot be moved one way or the other by an emotion. To the extent that God can be said to feel anything at all, He directs Himself to feel an emotion appropriate to whatever purpose He is serving. In the damnation of a soul, He is exercising His perfect justice. Therefore, there would be no reason to mourn this, so God cannot be said to mourn the loss of any to the eternal flame. If He were to choose to feel anything at all as a result of this, I imagine it would be satisfaction in knowing that justice has been served.

For those of us who choose to rest in the Beatific Vision, cleansed of all impurity, we, like God, will also fail to mourn those who suffer eternal death. We will see it for the perfect justice that it is and rejoice. Paradise is not an eternity tinged with sorrow over the loss of the willfully disobedient. It is to experience joy in all things, including those who meet with justice, whatever it may be.

If God is Love and God wants us all to get to Heaven, you think He doesn’t feel sorry for (or mourn) those who reject Him?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If God is Love and God wants us all to get to Heaven, you think He doesn’t feel sorry for (or mourn) those who reject Him?

Well, that is a tough question. C. S. Lewis (along with Eric and others) would say, ‘no, He does not.’ First, C.S. Lewis (and others) note correctly that God is a spirit (although certainly the Second Person of the Trinity is both God and Man and thus possesses human faculties/emotions).

But C.S. Lewis speaks in “The Great Divorce” to this point. A woman who died and went to heaven was in great joy. Her husband, who died afterward, ‘met’ her in heaven. She attempted to get him to lay down his burden of resentment and self pity in order to choose heaven. He would not. He clung to his self-pity. And she went on, rejoicing, not ‘because’ he had chosen hell, but because heaven is pure joy and cannot be ‘held to the tyranny of the wicked’. For as the guide said, when the narrator said it didn’t seem ‘quite fair’ that she should STILL be happy, knowing the fate of her husband, ‘you cannot hold heaven hostage, or insist that it cease to be joyful in order to satisfy the meanness of those who do not themselves choose to be joyful.’ This in a sense is what true justice is. . .not the kind of justice that we like to think of, where no matter what awful things we do, even if we would do them over again, even if we don’t want to be saved, we will still ‘be saved’ because we can’t picture God ‘letting’ somebody choose bad things. We want to have our cake and eat it too. We want to put all the blame on God for us ‘being forced into doing bad’, yet take all the credit ourselves for anytime we ‘choose to do good’.

This is not an easy book and I’ve read it many times over in the past few years. I find that it is easier to believe the more I turn ‘eveything’ over to God, and harder to believe when I am trying to be more ‘in control’ myself.

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, that is a tough question. C. S. Lewis (along with Eric and others) would say, ‘no, He does not.’ First, C.S. Lewis (and others) note correctly that God is a spirit (although certainly the Second Person of the Trinity is both God and Man and thus possesses human faculties/emotions).

If:
a) There is a cloud of witnesses cheering us on,
b) There is more celebration in heaven over the return of one lost sheep than the 99 that were never lost

Then it would seem that there would be some sense of loss when someone leaves the fold.

Consequently, if God has a desire for all of us to get to Heaven, it seems there would be a sense of loss when someone doesn’t fulfill God’s Will. God may be Spirit, but He is Love. Is not Love a basic fundamental emotion?

 

[Valke2]

One can be sorry, but not to the point of considering Judas a “lesser chosen one”.

From both the Bible and Sacred Tradition, one definitely gets the impression that if (big if) Judas repented, it was very much unknown. Peter’s repentence for his betrayal, OTOH, is not only noted but underscored. Judas’ end is given that he hanged himself (meaning that it is likely that he committed the mortal sin of despair and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit for thinking his sin, great though it was, was so unforgivable by God that he ‘had to’ kill himself),

Why would that be such a sin. Wasn’t the whole point of jesus dying, according to Christanity because there was no other way to be forgiven for original sin? There was a long history, apparently, of sin being so great that it could not be forgiven.

 

[DallasCatholic]

Well, that is a tough question. C. S. Lewis (along with Eric and others) would say, ‘no, He does not.’ First, C.S. Lewis (and others) note correctly that God is a spirit (although certainly the Second Person of the Trinity is both God and Man and thus possesses human faculties/emotions).

While I have read and enjoyed many of the writings and sermons of C.S. Lewis (my personal favorite is “Why I am not a Pacifist”) he is not a Catholic and so sometimes his views do not reflect Church teaching.

 

[NotWorthy]

Why would that be such a sin. Wasn’t the whole point of jesus dying, according to Christanity because there was no other way to be forgiven for original sin? There was a long history, apparently, of sin being so great that it could not be forgiven.

Yes, the Mosaic Covenant did not overcome some sins, and plainly stated this. It spoke of a prophet like Moses that would come with a new covenant.

Judas was there with Jesus when He talked about the coming of the Kingdom (the New Covenant).

Judas didn’t like the form of the Kingdom Jesus was speaking of. It wasn’t a military one that would overcome the Roman oppressors.

He succumbed to Satan and to despair.

 

[dorothy_smith]

Just because Judas’ betrayal was instrumental to the Redemption does not mean that he was pre-destined to do so. He had free will and chose to betray Jesus.

But even then, after doing the dastardly deed, he could always have persevered and begged forgiveness. Look at St. Peter. But he didn’t. So why feel sorry for him? All that happened to him was his own doing. He had it coming.

Nevertheless, the Church never declares anyone in hell. There is always the remote chance that Judas repented before the rope tightened.

Judas did repent. The Gospel of Mathew records “When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” 5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself” (Mt 27:3-5)

Judas confessed his sin to the priests so therefore deserved absolution? His sin would have been forgiven? Albeit that he committed the mortal sin of suicide afterwards but he wasn’t in his right state of mind so therefore cannot be held responsible for his actions.

I wonder why Jesus didn’t forewarn Judas of the dire consequences of his betrayal. If He had have done then Judas (or any other sane person) wouldn’t have gone through with such a betrayal knowing the consequences facing them. It could be argued that Judas was duped into being the fall guy so as to ensure the messianic prophesy.

Yes, Judas betrayed Jesus by his own free will but he also sought forgiveness by his own free will.

 

[Other_Eric]

Judas did repent. The Gospel of Mathew records “When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” 5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself” (Mt 27:3-5)

Judas confessed his sin to the priests so therefore deserved absolution? His sin would have been forgiven? Albeit that he committed the mortal sin of suicide afterwards but he wasn’t in his right state of mind so therefore cannot be held responsible for his actions.

I wonder why Jesus didn’t forewarn Judas of the dire consequences of his betrayal. If He had have done then Judas (or any other sane person) wouldn’t have gone through with such a betrayal knowing the consequences facing them. It could be argued that Judas was duped into being the fall guy so as to ensure the messianic prophesy.

Yes, Judas betrayed Jesus by his own free will but he also sought forgiveness by his own free will.

Jesus did forewarn Judas of what would happen when He said that for His betrayer, it would have been better for him had he not been born.

 

[jonk]

After Judas repented, he despaired and that’s why he hung himself. True repentance is contrite and not despairing. Had he not despaired, he would have been forgiven like Peter. Despairing of God’s infinite mercy is a sin, because it is a loss of faith and trust in God. Despair is prideful and almost blasphemous, even though it appears as humility, because implicit in it is the idea that one has sinned so greatly that even God Himself cannot forgive, therefore disregarding His promises and putting undue weight on one’s own actions, which are infinitessimally small in the ocean that is our God’s mercy. It is making oneself out to be greater than God.

What happened to Judas as opposed to Peter underscores the importance of humility. God casts away the prideful and exalts the humble. Despite his great sin, Peter became the first pope. Judas is forever remembered as a traitor. We must pray that we ourselves never become so prideful as to fall into despair, and we must always trust in God’s infinite mercy.

 

[Other_Eric]

While I have read and enjoyed many of the writings and sermons of C.S. Lewis (my personal favorite is “Why I am not a Pacifist”) he is not a Catholic and so sometimes his views do not reflect Church teaching.

St. Thomas Aquinas was a Catholic and his view, stated repeatedly in Summa Theologica, was that there are no emotions/passions in God.

 

[porthos11]

Judas did repent. The Gospel of Mathew records “When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” 5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself” (Mt 27:3-5)

Judas confessed his sin to the priests so therefore deserved absolution? His sin would have been forgiven? Albeit that he committed the mortal sin of suicide afterwards but he wasn’t in his right state of mind so therefore cannot be held responsible for his actions.

I wonder why Jesus didn’t forewarn Judas of the dire consequences of his betrayal. If He had have done then Judas (or any other sane person) wouldn’t have gone through with such a betrayal knowing the consequences facing them. It could be argued that Judas was duped into being the fall guy so as to ensure the messianic prophesy.

Yes, Judas betrayed Jesus by his own free will but he also sought forgiveness by his own free will.

No he didn’t. He may have felt remorse but if he were truly repentant he wouldn’t have despaired and hung himself. Clearly his repentance wasn’t genuine. Moreover, he added another mortal sin, that of suicide, to his list. So now he was guilty of betraying an innocent man AND killing himself.

Yet, we never know what his last thoughts were, so no one really jumps to absolute conclusions that he is in hell. Nevertheless, the words of Christ very strongly indicate so. Judas is a pitiable character, but we should spare our compassion for other people. It’s too late for Judas now.

 

[NotWorthy]

St. Thomas Aquinas was a Catholic and his view, stated repeatedly in Summa Theologica, was that there are no emotions/passions in God.

That’s interesting. I wasn’t aware of that.

When I read things like, “I loved Jacob and hated Esau” and “I loathed that generation” it seems to imply that there are emotions and passions.

If we are created in the image and likeness of God, then that would imply that anything we are that we don’t share with God must be bad. Am I correct in that assumption?

In that case, all emotions are bad? I know this statement depends on the validity of the previous statement.

I’m not arguing, just pondering.

 

[dorothy_smith]

No he didn’t. He may have felt remorse but if he were truly repentant he wouldn’t have despaired and hung himself. Clearly his repentance wasn’t genuine. Moreover, he added another mortal sin, that of suicide, to his list. So now he was guilty of betraying an innocent man AND killing himself.

My friend I am confused to why you give more credit to the words of another poster than to those written in the Bible? Once again I have to point out to you that Judas did repent vigorously. It is there for you to read in Mathew 27: 3-5. Or in your opinion do you think that the word of the Bible is erroneous? Judas confessed his sin. He returned the blood money. He was ashamed of what he did.

You also condemn him for suicide but I have already explained that he clearly was in a confused state of mind and so cannot be held fully responsible for his rash and desperate act. There are countless suicides all over the world today by people suffering from severe depression. Do you condemn them also?

Judas is a pitiable character, but we should spare our compassion for other people. It’s too late for Judas now.

Your lack of compassion for Judas is bewildering to me. I am sure that deep in your heart as a Christian you do feel compassion for him. You also say that ‘It’s too late for Judas now’. I gulped with despair when I read that. God judges man alone not us. You don’t know if it’s too late. With God all things are possible.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

One of the great Church Fathers, Saint John Chrysostom, says that Judas is not in hell. He says that Judas hung himself in sorrow and shame in order to be able to meet with our Lord in the next world and beg His forgiveness.

Saint John may or may not be correct but it is a very generous thought and one we can share.

PS: I am not Roman Catholic but Orthodox and just happened to see this thread. I have learnt in the Eastern Christianity section that the Catholic Church will not say that anybody in particular is in hell.

 

[jonk]

You also condemn him for suicide but I have already explained that he clearly was in a confused state of mind and so cannot be held fully responsible for his rash and desperate act. There are countless suicides all over the world today by people suffering from severe depression. Do you condemn them also?

Your lack of compassion for Judas is bewildering to me. I am sure that deep in your heart as a Christian you do feel compassion for him. You also say that ‘It’s too late for Judas now’. I gulped with despair when I read that. God judges man alone not us. You don’t know if it’s too late. With God all things are possible.

You are entirely correct in saying that we can’t say for sure whether Judas is in hell, and that his act could have been rash and desperate and without full consent of his will, and that with God all things are possible, but it has generally been believed that he is in hell, and that would mean that he died in a state of hatred towards God.

You are too quick to condemn people for lack of compassion because if one believes that he did indeed die in such a state and is now numbered among the reprobate who curse God for eternity, then such compassion would be misplaced.

You are free to believe otherwise and you may indeed feel compassion for him, but if he is not in hell, then he forever shares in God’s glory in heaven. In that case, he would be like Peter, and you should feel compassion for Peter too.

If Judas is in hell then he is there justly because of his hatred of God and rejection of His mercy. We may feel sorry for him in the same way we might feel sorry for Hitler if he is in hell, though we too cannot say that Hitler did not repent and then commit suicide in a confused state of mind. If Judas is in heaven, then it is because he did truly repent, and as you said, his final act of suicide was not an act of despair but the result of a confused state of mind.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Again, one can feel sorry for Judas, and indeed for all, who have sinned. Actually, this means we can and should feel sorrow for all of us, since all have sinned.

The Catholic Church does not teach that any person (even Judas) is known to be in hell, whereas it does teach that certain individuals are known to be in heaven. True.

But, feeling sorrow, and compassion, do not mean that we make assumptions (due to those feelings) that particular beings (like Judas) can somehow not be in hell, because it would make us feel too bad to think of people being damned for reasons we think are inadequate, any more than we make assumptions that certain beings (like Hitler) can somehow not be in heaven, because it would make us feel too bad that somebody so evil would ever be capable of being forgiven.

We are not more compassionate than God. Neither are we more just than He.

It is one thing to hope that Judas repented (and posters have noted correctly that there is indeed a difference between repentence and remorse. In repentence, one is sorry for the offense against another; in remorse, one is sorry for oneself instead of, or to a higher degree than, being sorry for the offense), although there is no real biblical evidence that he did so. Repudiation of one’s actions does not indicate that one fully repents those actions. Confession to the pharisees is not confession to God, and Judas did not ask the pharisees to absolve him.

True compassion, like true love, does not attempt to deny reality. If Judas died in a state of mortal sin (and this we do not know), then he is in hell, and no amount of compassion or sorrow can change this. And certainly trying to rehabilitate him into

argued that Judas was a lesser Chosen One??

seems to me not a matter of feeling compassion for Judas so much as it seems a questioning of God’s justice** if** Judas is indeed damned, based on the feeling that Judas’ actions somehow were not only not worthy of damnation, but were indeed not only necessary but almost praiseworthy. This is not only not Catholic teaching, but indeed seems to me to verge on near blasphemy, in attempting to make an action of treachery into an action of honor.

Like true love for those in particular sins (homosexuals who are sexually active, heterosexuals who are sexually active outside a valid marriage, those seeking or aiding abortion, those who lie, cheat, steal, bear false witness, etc.), the acknowledgment of the sin’s gravity does not mean that we hate the sinner by pointing out that gravity.

Some would say that calling sins sins is not loving, because it hurts peoples’ feelings, and that God loves us no matter what we do. This is more a non sequiter. Yes, God loves us no matter what. But no, God will not save us if we choose to damn ourselves.

Yes, God loves the sinner, but He does not give the sinner a free pass because He has compassion on them. The sinner has to acknowledge his sin and to atone for the sin.

Making it appear that God will let any sin go by, because He is compassionate ignores the fact that He is just as well.

 

[DallasCatholic]

St. Thomas Aquinas was a Catholic and his view, stated repeatedly in Summa Theologica, was that there are no emotions/passions in God.

Actually, St. Thomas Aquinas IS a Catholic, not “was” a Catholic. While the Summa Theologica has, in some cases, defined Catholic Theology for hundreds of years, not all of St. Thomas’ ideas have been promulgated as infallible teachings. While I clearly do not have the credentials to match up with St. Thomas I respectfully disagree with him on this point. In fact I would say that our Pope Benedict XVI’s first encyclical, Deus Caritas Est, would also refute this particular belief. Love is after all, an emotion.

 

[richardeekw]

I can’t help feeling sorry for Judas if he has to suffer eternal damnation?? Do you think that Jesus forgave him? and that he is now in heaven with Jesus? After all, Judas played an integral part in fulfilling messianic prophesies. It called be argued that Judas was a lesser Chosen One??

Matthew Chapter 5 - The Unconditional Love of God.
44: But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45: so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Luke Chapter 2334: - Jesus forgives
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.

God forgives and loves all unconditinally. BUT respects the FREE WILL which is given to each person - to follow him or to rejeft Him.

Peter, the first Pope advocates that he will never deny Christ but denied knowing him thrice at the time for witnessing to the Christ. However **he repented (this is most important) **and Scripture says he wept bitterly.

I don’t see why you should feel sorry for Judas.
It is a sorry state of affairs for Judas and for all - atan and its :followers who rejected God. (God is All-knowing and knows the beginning and end, even Judas; actions yet respects each person’s free will)

Instead we should feel sorry for ourselves, and all living creatures of God who continue to reject the Trinune God. Let us continue to do Penance, offering up our sufferings and to Pray for the conversion of humanity to receive the FREE gift of Salvation from God. - for Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life.