Sorry Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, Jesus is God.

[Battleaxe]

Thomas answered, and said to him (Jesus): My Lord, and my God.

Exactly!

The Jehovahs Witnesses would say that were all gods, so that verse proves nothing. Thered be a similar LDS loophole. After all, LDS teaching already says theres more than one “God”. A slippery customer.

What right does an organisation, which didnt exist until the 19th Century, have to call itself: "CJCLDS"? The Catholic Church was "There"! What general apostasy? Proof? Archaeological evidence in North America? Thats all been said already, but…

So much for:

“I will not leave you orphans”. John 14:18

and:

“…baptising in the name [SINGULAR] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. [TRINITARIAN]
…and** lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.**” Amen. Matthew 28:19-20. New King James Version

Theyve probably already been quoted, but it wont hurt to requote.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

That is not true. Nowhere does it say that Paul believed God was once a sinful man.

Jesus was the PURE, sacrificial Lamb of God. (They just don’t get it)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hazy perhaps, but true. Paul believed the same: “To us there is but one God the Father… and one Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor.8:6)

I really have no response, and little patience, for such an astounding display of uncritical and irrational thought.

 

[Porknpie]

I think Stephen prayed directly to Jesus: “As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my Spirit’. Then he fell to his knees and cried out in a loud voice, ‘Lord, do no hold this sin against them’, and when he said this he fell asleep.”(Acts 7:59-60)

This is why people, including myself, have such a difficult time understanding what in the heck it is that you actually believe. In order to make your point that you do worship Jesus Christ (at least in some sense) you quote McKonkie who immediately contradicts the point which you are trying to uphold by first stating very clearly that “We do not worship the Son” and then going on to explain that what a Mormon gives to Christ is really not worship at all.

**I feel like I’m at a tennis match. **

Tennis match or watching the original Atari “Pong” www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDrRnJOCKZc or “P(name removed by moderator)ong” youtube.com/watch?v=ol8g-tKd-nw

Jesus says that he and the father are “One” (Mormons fail to look at all of scripture…this is just an example).

But, Mormons accept that the KJV bible that they are using is inspired and that the “compilers” of the bible were guided by the Holy Spirit. That is very hard to understand…that the Holy Spirit would be guiding the compilers without error…compilers who were the Catholic church… but the church was in apostasy (so says them). But, they reject the church on faith and morals etc. So we have a Holy Spirit that guides infallibly one moment and fallible the next. Ping…pong.

I just heard Romney say on Meet the Press today he “believed in the same God” (compared to Christianity, implied). Which God is he referring to?

 

[SteveVH]

This is a good point. Mormons believe that Jehovah = Jesus, so it would be Jesus who gave the commandments to Moses. This seems to throw a wrench in their three separate beings theology. They should be worshiping Jesus, not Eloheim (Heavenly Father).

Exactimundo. They are, by the way, correct in saying that Jesus gave the commandments to Moses, however, the Father and the Holy Spirit were there as well. The problem is just as you say; If Jesus gave the commandments to Moses then He is the God who said “you shall have no other gods before me” and is therefore the God we are to worship. This presents to problem at all for a Trinitarian. We know exactly who we are to worship; the only one, true God; the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[SteveVH]

Tennis match or watching the original Atari “Pong” www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDrRnJOCKZc or “P(name removed by moderator)ong” youtube.com/watch?v=ol8g-tKd-nw

Jesus says that he and the father are “One” (Mormons fail to look at all of scripture…this is just an example).

But, Mormons accept that the KJV bible that they are using is inspired and that the “compilers” of the bible were guided by the Holy Spirit. That is very hard to understand…that the Holy Spirit would be guiding the compilers without error…compilers who were the Catholic church… but the church was in apostasy (so says them). But, they reject the church on faith and morals etc. So we have a Holy Spirit that guides infallibly one moment and fallible the next. Ping…pong.

I just heard Romney say on Meet the Press today he “believed in the same God” (compared to Christianity, implied). Which God is he referring to?

One thing I have learned in the past few years concerning the LDS faith tradition is that there is a wide berth given to accomodate private opinion on “doctrinal” matters. One Mormon opinion that I have heard is that it was only priesthood authority that was taken away from the Church but that the Holy Spirit still guided the Church in determining the canon. And the water gets even muddier. So when did the Holy Spirit stop guiding the Church or did He ever stop guiding it? If He never stopped guiding it then what does that mean? And we could go on and on… It is precisely the unreasonableness of the Mormon faith that makes me curious as to how one buys into it in the first place.

 

[Battleaxe]

It is precisely the unreasonableness of the Mormon faith that makes me curious as to how one buys into it in the first place.

Unless proved wrong: In at least some cases the LDS sect must hide the deeper truth of what it teaches about God until new members are so roped in that (psychologically) they`re unable to get out, no matter how outlandish its inner beliefs. Like a web of deceit woven around them.

How many abominably “catechised” ex-Catholics are in there? They`re easy prey…and often axe grinders.

 

[mtolympus]

I think Stephen prayed directly to Jesus: “As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my Spirit’. Then he fell to his knees and cried out in a loud voice, ‘Lord, do no hold this sin against them’, and when he said this he fell asleep.”(Acts 7:59-60)

“But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)

Stephen wasn’t praying at the time. Jesus had appeared to him and he was speaking directly to Jesus, as was the case when Jesus appeared to Moses, Paul and (as I believe), Joseph Smith.

Jesus told us to pray to the Father: “After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven” (Matt 6:9)

This is why people, including myself, have such a difficult time understanding what in the heck it is that you actually believe. In order to make your point that you do worship Jesus Christ (at least in some sense) you quote McKonkie who immediately contradicts the point which you are trying to uphold by first stating very clearly that “We do not worship the Son” and then going on to explain that what a Mormon gives to Christ is really not worship at all.

We pray to the Father as Jesus did to “the only true God.” (John 17:3) Yes, Jesus is divine and his role in our Father’s plan is that of Lord and Savior and the “Way” to the Father. McConkie’s point was that we should not place our worship of Jesus above our worship of the Father. Jesus said: “I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28)

We worship Jesus Christ in His role as Lord and Savior. Paul explained it very simply: “To us there is but one God the Father… and one Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 8:6) (Paul did not say to us there is one triune God.)

LDS do worship Jesus Christ. January 1, 2000 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints put out a official document called The Living Christ, a Testimony of the Apostles: “He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.” (emphasis added)

If I could ask a question. When God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses, who, exactly was it that gave the them; the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit. Because the first commandment says something along the lines of “I am the Lord, your God, you shall have no other Gods before me.” It goes on to read “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:”.

So the way I see it is this. We can worship no one but God. Since you believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate divine beings, which one is the one spoken about in the Ten Commandments? Because you are not even to “serve” any other god. That means that if Jesus is not the one to be worshipped then he is not the one that we are to serve either.

Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament and it was He who appeared unto Moses.

Jesus Christ is the mediator between God (the Father) and man: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:5-6)

In God’s dealings with the human family, Jesus the Son represents His Father. Jesus often speaks in first person on behalf of the Father. He explained to his disciples that when he spoke to them he did not speak of himself, but words of the Father: “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)

The testimony of John the Baptist may help us understand that when Jesus appeared unto Moses He was declaring the words of the Father:

“John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. (John 1:15-18)

John the Baptist was testifying of Jesus, who would come after him, when he said that “he was before me.” John was referring to Old Testament times, when “the law was given by Moses,” and told them that it was Jesus Christ who had appeared to the prophets. For they had never seen God (the Father) at any time but bore record of the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father. Jesus Christ had declared the Father unto them.

So, do you serve Jesus Christ?

Of course. Jesus is the only Way to the Father.

 

[KathleenGee]

Back to context…the Jewish people in different times had different names in addressing the Lord.

 

[SteveVH]

“But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)

Stephen wasn’t praying at the time. Jesus had appeared to him and he was speaking directly to Jesus, as was the case when Jesus appeared to Moses, Paul and (as I believe), Joseph Smith.

And what, exactly, do you think prayer is? Is it not speaking (and hopefully listening) to God? We consider prayer a conversation.

McConkie’s point was that we should not place our worship of Jesus above our worship of the Father. Jesus said: “I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28)

Well I don’t know any Christian faith tradition that places worship of Jesus above worship of the Father. That would defeat the entire understanding of the Trinity. So, if you do not place the worship of Jesus above worship of the Father, could you say that you would give them equal worship?

LDS do worship Jesus Christ. January 1, 2000 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints put out a official document called The Living Christ, a Testimony of the Apostles: “He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.” (emphasis added)

Yes, you already told me this. McKonkie make an unqualified statement that “We do not worship the Son”. Now, apparently, “LDS do worship Jesus Christ”.

Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament and it was He who appeared unto Moses.

Then it is he that you should worship, is it not? It is he that said we should have no other gods before him.

Jesus Christ is the mediator between God (the Father) and man: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:5-6)

In God’s dealings with the human family, Jesus the Son represents His Father. Jesus often speaks in first person on behalf of the Father. He explained to his disciples that when he spoke to them he did not speak of himself, but words of the Father: “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)

Jesus does more than just represent his Father. “…I am in the Father and the Father in me… the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me…” They cannot be separated because they are one God.

The testimony of John the Baptist may help us understand that when Jesus appeared unto Moses He was declaring the words of the Father:

“John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. (John 1:15-18)

John the Baptist was testifying of Jesus, who would come after him, when he said that “he was before me.” John was referring to Old Testament times, when “the law was given by Moses,” and told them that it was Jesus Christ who had appeared to the prophets. For they had never seen God (the Father) at any time but bore record of the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father. Jesus Christ had declared the Father unto them.

I don’t disagree with the scripture you quoted but I don’t know how this supports your position.

 

[Nicea325]

The Jehovahs Witnesses would say that were all gods, so that verse proves nothing. Thered be a similar LDS loophole. After all, LDS teaching already says theres more than one “God”. A slippery customer.

What right does an organisation, which didnt exist until the 19th Century, have to call itself: "CJCLDS"? The Catholic Church was "There"! What general apostasy? Proof? Archaeological evidence in North America? Thats all been said already, but…

So much for:

and:

Theyve probably already been quoted, but it wont hurt to requote.

Oh trust me, I know exactly what you mean. I once had a roommate who is a JW and he would make similar comments. JW’s and LDS, I have noticed re-define words in order to suit their novel beliefs.

 

[mtolympus]

I don’t disagree with the scripture you quoted but I don’t know how this supports your position.

That is why I am LDS and you are Catholic. Thanks for the discussion and God bless you!

 

[SteveVH]

That is why I am LDS and you are Catholic. Thanks for the discussion and God bless you!

Ah, yes, I forgot for a moment that you are enlightened and I am not, thus my inability to understand what in the heck your quote had to do with the point at hand. But thanks for the patt on the head. You guys must all go through the same training.

 

[mtolympus]

Ah, yes, I forgot for a moment that you are enlightened and I am not, thus my inability to understand what in the heck your quote had to do with the point at hand. But thanks for the patt on the head. You guys must all go through the same training.

No offense intended. I really appreciate those who are strong in their faith and live by it.

 

[Battleaxe]

Oh trust me, I know exactly what you mean. I once had a roommate who is a JW and he would make similar comments. JW’s and LDS, I have noticed re-define words in order to suit their novel beliefs.

At least the JWs dont hide their beliefs. Years ago, someone gave me a copy of the long-out-of-print JW book "You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth". Its a good compendium of their beliefs, along with the usual slander about Roman Catholicism burning people caught reading the Bible…Etc.
Recently, though, they seem more “flexible” in some areas; so i wonder whether they withdrew that book so it`d be easier to change some beliefs with less danger of being “caught out”.
Eg: belief in a literal six-day Creation is apparently no longer a matter of faith.

But the LDS position:
Hercules had to wrestle with the shape-shifter Proteus. Our task makes Hercules` one look easy.

 

[mtolympus]

At least the JWs dont hide their beliefs. Years ago, someone gave me a copy of the long-out-of-print JW book "You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth". Its a good compendium of their beliefs, along with the usual slander about Roman Catholicism burning people caught reading the Bible…Etc.
Recently, though, they seem more “flexible” in some areas; so i wonder whether they withdrew that book so it`d be easier to change some beliefs with less danger of being “caught out”.
Eg: belief in a literal six-day Creation is apparently no longer a matter of faith.

But the LDS position:
Hercules had to wrestle with the shape-shifter Proteus. Our task makes Hercules` one look easy.

That is why I like to use the KJV Bible to tell why I believe what I believe. No one can say that has changed.

 

[Battleaxe]

That is why I like to use the KJV Bible to tell why I believe what I believe. No one can say that has changed.

What`s your interpretation of Galatians 1:6-9, then, based on the wording of the KJV?

Did you follow that link to see what we say about the Blessed Trinity?
Once again:
www.katapi.org.uk/TandS/Contents.html

Its not a matter of pestering you; its just a sincere wish that you know what we believe, rather than thinking that we follow some way-off “analogies” which aren`t analogies at all: eg ice/water/steam. Wrong! A cloak folded in three. Wrong! Etc. The visual imagination is actually a hindrance.

It`s Be-ing, Know-ing, Lov-ing.

 

[elizabeth22]

I’ve tried to skim this whole thread as best as I can. It’s long and interesting. So my question is this, Did God the Father create the universe and our world and all of creation or did God the Son our Lord Jesus Christ at His Father’s command create the heavens?
I guess I thought it was God our Heavely Father’s word that set creation “in motion.”. Thanks

 

[jrtrent]

. . . The only thing that matters are the words that were left behind, the Gospel.

Galatians 1:6-9 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

. . . Calling someone Christian/non-Christian is labeling a person/group (i’ve done this before of course,) but I think we are missing the bigger point. Does “this religion” believe in the same Jesus that was taught and believed by the early Church, now that is the question. To reject the true Christ and believe in a “perversion” of Christ will lead to us being accursed, as Paul states.

From numerous commentaries, I think that the “other gospel” Paul is referring to here does not involve a debate on the nature of God and Christ, but that of considering “observance of the rites of the Mosaic system as necessary to salvation” (Barnes’ Notes on the Bible). Here’s Matthew Henry, as another example:

“Some would set up the works of the law in the place of Christ’s righteousness, and thus they corrupted Christianity. The apostle solemnly denounces, as accursed, every one who attempts to lay so false a foundation.”

The gospel is not defined in Galatians 1:6-9, but in verses like John 3:16, 1 Cor. 15:1-4, and 1 John 4:9-10. As a former Mormon, and based on quotes and links provided in this thread, I don’t believe that they deny the truth of any of those verses. They have a non-orthodox understanding of the nature of God, Christ, and man, but that does not mean they are teaching the “other gospel” referred to by Paul in Galatians 1:6-9.

 

[Lochias]

That is why I am LDS and you are Catholic. Thanks for the discussion and God bless you!

My Mom had a couple of LDS come to the door one day, years ago.

Mom told them she’d be happy to talk with them for a while, and they listed a number of their beliefs and the like, which sounded as though they rung pretty true with Christianity in general. Mom saw one guy wink at the other, before saying “Really, don’t you think we’re a lot closer in our beliefs than we are different?”

Mom smiled, and said “Actually no, otherwise we’d all be Catholic!”

They’ve not been back since.